Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Latro 06-05-05, 01:07 PM	Being a fairly new DM running the game for a fairly new group I sometimes run into problems. Lucky for me they play the game for exactly the same reason as me and accept all rulings I make without problems (as long as I make sure they make some sense). So today we had this situation: The group (a human fighter, a halfling druid, an elf rogue and a gnomish ranger/wizard, all at lvl 4) were in a fairly damaged state going head to head with a Green Hag, also not in very great shape at the moment. The hag was soaked in lamp oil. The fighter had the great idea of throwing a pint of lamp oil at her and then his lantern to set her on fire. He hit her with the oil, but rolled a 1 when throwing the lantern and accidently set the gnome on fire who then kamikazed himself onto the hag who also caught fire. After a lot of running and rolling around the flames were extinguished. The hag was now clawing her way through the elf and making very short work of him. The gnome was a bit back lighting another torch to set her on fire again ... He casts Mage Hand and floats the torch towards the Hag ... :confused: so what happens? I couldn't really figure out what to do. Does Mage Hand go fast enough and give enough control to make it count as a ranged touch attack? Somehow that didn't really feel right. Maybe make the Hag do a reflex save to beat the ranged touch attack of the gnome? Dunno really. In the end the gnome decide to charge her waving the torch to keep it simple, he missed. The halfling behind however didn't and clubbed her to death with his mini-quarterstaff. So what should we have sone with the Mage Hand/Torch attack Thanks :)
MinusInnocence 06-05-05, 01:19 PM	Normally, this wouldn't be an issue as anything light enough to be lifted with the Mage Hand spell is probably inappropriate to use as a weapon; however, you don't even have to physically touch the person with the torch for it to ignite the oil. Having said that, since the spell description fails to mention you can make Ranged Touch attacks with it, I'm going to assume it's either too clumsy or too slow for this to work. More importantly, if the Hag was already set on fire but succeeded in putting it out, would there be any oil left for the torch to pose a significant threat anyway? Just hitting someone with a torch (assuming the person isn't covered in an accelerant) isn't going to cause them to burst into flames.
Sildatorak 06-05-05, 01:49 PM	What MinusInnocent said. I would probably make it a reflex save based on the DC of mage hand to avoid. As a 0 level spell that is going to be pretty crappy and easy to avoid, which sets everything right with the world.
fatal error 06-05-05, 02:32 PM	Well, she could also easily just grab the torch and take control of it as mage hand is only 5 lb. telekineses, so its probably not moving fast or hard.
Guy Humual 06-05-05, 03:15 PM	I like fatal error's suggestion and what MinusInnocence said about the oil. Keep in mind that lamp oil doesn't always automatically light when it comes into contact with fire, and many times, it takes more then brief contact. Also I tend to think that burning lamp oil doesn't burn with the same violence as Greek fire or alchemist's fire . . . lamp oil might not even burn hot enough to do significant damage on the first round (maybe 1d4). If this situation comes up again, I think mage hand could be used to deliver touch attacks in this situation, but you might want to allow the hag to make AoO against the approaching torch to allow her to knock it harmlessly away (most hags have a reach of 10ft remember). That's not a great help but it may give you somethings to think on.
Latro 06-06-05, 03:29 AM	Thanks :) It seems I was right in thinking that Mage Hand is not capable of letting the torch perform a (fairly easy to hit) touch attack without the Hag having a good chance to dodge or grab the torch. :cool:
Carn Vandoril 06-06-05, 08:35 AM	I would rule it possible, but: slow speed: hag gets +4 on AC(touch). flank: hag looses -2 on AC. if noticed (spot 10?): AoO on torch.
Winter's requiem 06-06-05, 11:12 AM	Carn Vandoril makes a point. Even though it's easy for the hag to avoid it, there should be a chance that she doesn't. I don't think the torch would set the hag on fire, but mabye her clothes would, it depends on the material the cloth was made of, some clothes burn really easy. It's true that mage hand is a lvl 0 spell, but creative thinking makes the game funnier. If players discover alternate, or smart ways to use spells, like the one mentioned here, it's great.
nghtsngr 06-06-05, 02:23 PM	While true acording to the rules, mage hand isn't very usefull in combat, and lamp oil doesn't hurt much immediately you might consider the benefit to your campaign for rewarding this kind of behavior. Since most combats involve less than inovative thought (Uh.. I'm gonna hit im wit mah sword... ) when your players try to use the world around them to finish the fight work with them a little. Maybe instead of continuing to fight to the death, the hag (now burninating) will consider the better part of valor and run away. Party still has "defeated" an opponent and gets full xp for the combat. The modified attack roll already suggested would probably have worked out pretty well too. In any case the net result would have been a cinimatic move that quickly ends a dangerous combat that had realistic reactions from the npc and could easily lead in to more adventures. (Track the hag down and kill her once and for all, or maybe in her haste to get away she drops a usefull hook). Ok, now I'm just babbling. Hope some of this is usefull.