A single CR8 can kill a party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A single CR8 can kill a party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RogerWilco
05-12-05, 07:37 PM I had a party of 4 level 10 characters and some henchmen run into a Bodak in a cave. Being all human (only shadowy ilumination from the entrance of the cave) it more-or-less surprised them, and all but one died on their first fort save in the first round (the monk rolled a 1)
Because of the unfavorable circumstances the encounter was maybe CR10 in my opinion according to the RAW.
How do you gauge the Bodak and this encounter?
As I read the Gaze ability all within 30 feet need to roll a Fort save or die, every round. Isn't this a bit much with all the other abilities like DR10/cold iron, etc. coupled with a CR8?
Lord Ian Stark
05-12-05, 07:42 PM That many 10th level characters failed there saves? You must have bumped up the Gaze DC quite a bit to be that potent.
PaladinSix
05-12-05, 07:53 PM The Bodak is one of those creatures for whom the CR system breaks down a little bit, since its most potent ability is based largely on the luck of the opponents. Or, in your case, on the bad luck of the opponents. In addition, the attack causes death, which makes it very much an all-or-nothing kind of ability. Those types of abilities are often very difficult to link to CR accurately.

I think the +2 to CR for the unfavorable circumstances was probably justified. The problem is that the Bodak should probably not be listed as CR 8 to begin with. Personally, I would figure it around base CR 10, but its largely a judgement call.

One section from the SRD on Gaze Attacks that you may have overlooked:
If visibility is limited (by dim lighting, a fog, or the like) so that it results in concealment, there is a percentage chance equal to the normal miss chance for that degree of concealment that a character won’t need to make a saving throw in a given round. This chance is not cumulative with the chance for averting your eyes, but is rolled separately.

Oddly enough, the Bodak's primary ability doesn't work as well in shadowy conditions, which is exactly the kind of conditions I would expect a Bodak to most commonly be found in. Oh well, another minor disconnect between the guys who write the rules and the guys who design the monsters.
EvilVegan
05-12-05, 07:56 PM Oddly enough, the Bodak's primary ability doesn't work as well in shadowy conditions, which is exactly the kind of conditions I would expect a Bodak to most commonly be found in. Oh well, another minor disconnect between the guys who write the rules and the guys who design the monsters.

Maybe thats why its CR is only 8? I mean, generally it would be in dim conditions, so generally there's a percent chance that the gaze doesn't even work.
PaladinSix
05-12-05, 08:01 PM Thats certainly a possibility. Maybe the guys who designed the 3rd edition bodak looked at the rules for gaze attacks, recognized that the 'natural habitat' reduced its effectiveness, and therefore reduced the CR of the Bodak. Personally, I think thats giving too much credit to the designers; I don't think they even realized the discrepancy. However, if a DM rigorously enforces the concealment rules regarding the Bodak's gaze attack, then a CR 8 would seem to be more justified.
primemover003
05-12-05, 08:11 PM Are you telling me no one in the 10th level party has Darkvision via magical means? No goggles of night, no potions?

Are they using magic light or torches, sunrods and magic weapons to light their way? I'd call this poor Dungeoneering by the Party. Someone should have been able to see the Bodak at 60 feet (or at least get their Initial Encounter Spot check). At 60 feet they'd be out of the Gaze range and close enough for the Cleric to ID the Monster (free action) and get off a Turn check... Assuming you have a cleric.
Szat
05-12-05, 08:26 PM The same thing happend to me. The party rounded a corner going nearly full tilt and ran smack dab into a Bodak waiting to ambush them. 3/4's of the party failed their saves. I was shocked, they need like a 4 or better and almost ALL of them rolled under that.

Nearly ended the campaign if the other two members hadn't managed to make their saves and kill the thing in one round.
VirgilCaine
05-12-05, 08:40 PM Thats certainly a possibility. Maybe the guys who designed the 3rd edition bodak looked at the rules for gaze attacks, recognized that the 'natural habitat' reduced its effectiveness, and therefore reduced the CR of the Bodak. Personally, I think thats giving too much credit to the designers; I don't think they even realized the discrepancy. However, if a DM rigorously enforces the concealment rules regarding the Bodak's gaze attack, then a CR 8 would seem to be more justified.

I would have never thought to apply such a miss chance for a gaze attack. Very informative thread!
Horatio Hornblower
05-12-05, 09:54 PM Are you telling me no one in the 10th level party has Darkvision via magical means? No goggles of night, no potions?

Hey, if this 10th level group of humans was carelessly stumbling around in the dark then they had it coming. :nonono:

Bet they don't make that mistake again. :D

You need to see if you can get them to use better tactics. That way they don't get into a situation where they can all have bad rolls and get a TPK.

When they roll up new characters (if they got raised it'll be later) you should convince them to have a better mix of races. All the same misses out on key abilities.

Maybe a Bodak's CR is too low, but that's not what happened here. You did a great job running the monster. They just weren't ready for it and got unlucky too. Bad combo for the players.
Mirikon
05-12-05, 11:51 PM Sounds like you ran the monster just fine. The party just got really unlucky. That's life. Gaze attacks can be nasty like that. Given the right combo of bad luck and good circumstances, any gaze attack can screw a party. The Medusa can also really mess with a party. Especially if you allow feats from Savage Species or the Slayer's Guide to Medusas.
Kintaran
05-13-05, 12:37 AM A sudden string of low rolls on the PC end or high rolls on the DM end can suddenly swing a fight from 'in hand' to 'it's hit the fan.'

One particularly painful incident: We have a party of three powergamed melee brawlers backed by a mage. Mine is particularly nasty, psionic critical augmentation, innate fast healing, all the most abusive parts of 3.0 psionics backed by a deliberately overbalanced prestige class. We are 14th level, taking on a trio of Frost giants. Their heads are basically ours, and we have one down with only the druid taking any hits, when one crits me. Even with an excellent damage roll and x3 multiplier, it chops less than a third of my hit points away, but I roll a natural one on the save against massive damage. Giant cleaves, DM rolls two twenties in a row (in the open too) and down goes the wildshaped druid, to about -8. The fighter/cleric tries to cast heal defensively, and gets a modified 20. DC 21 to cast heal defensively. They flank the cleric and beat down. We had them dead to rights, and only the mage ends up surviving the EL 12. And only because of her scroll of fly.

The thing is, with any monster that has devastating criticals, save or die effects, or otherwise chancy, but powerful, abilities, the actual impact on the party will depend heavily on the die rolls, as evidenced by the previous little story. If I had not rolled that one, we would have finished them off with no difficulty. But, there you go, 75% percent fatalities.
VirgilCaine
05-13-05, 08:26 AM We had them dead to rights, and only the mage ends up surviving the EL 12. And only because of her scroll of fly.

A party with one 14th level cleric facing an EL 12...has a scroll of fly? Winged Boots? Wings of Flying? Hell, Robes of Flying?
Earndur
05-13-05, 08:36 AM Gaze attacks are one of the most deadly attacks around!

Not only must each character within range of the gaze attack attempt a saving throw against the gaze effect eact round at the beginning of his turn but ...

A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze attack as an attack action. The creature simply chooses a target within range, and that opponent must attempt a saving throw.

Every round one unlucky PC may have to make two separate saving throws versus the creatures gaze attack!

Ugly
olshanski_home
05-13-05, 09:38 AM This is exactly why we always blind one member of our party.
\kidding.

Really, the CR is just about right. The bodak is a terrible combatant, and the ability doesn't kick in until they are within close combat range.
The high level party should have had much better visibility.
Morka
05-13-05, 09:53 AM I guess the CR is right. The problem is it's a save-or-die roll. If you include a bodak in an enemy group, the EL is higher, so the PCs should be higher level, and have a better chance to make the save. (In this situation, they only had to roll a 4 or better, imagine if they were a few levels higher!). And to calculate the EL, a CR8 for the Bodak should be ok.
scott644
05-13-05, 11:54 AM Two things apply here.

First is the fact that CR is built around a party of PC's being run intelligently by their players. If they aren't planning for contingencies and having occasional advantages for disadvantageous situations by the time they hit 10th level, they're not playing the fullest and really only deserve a CR6 encounter or such.

Second is the situation was a clear case of "statistical clumping," which is what happens when random rolls suddenly tend toward a specific result. I played a PC once who was challenged to a duel by a superior fencer (it was a swashbuckling campaign). I should have hit negatives and lost, hands down. Instead, I rolled a stunning three critical hits to my opponent's one critical hit - and my opponent's last attack was a botch! Point being, there's really no accounting for luck.

Now I've seen it written in more than one book about how a DM can reduce the luck factor if they wish. On the flip side, those same books generally mention how reducing luck ends up favoring the PC's and biasing the CR ratings in their favor.

Frankly, I feel the encounter was handled correctly and the players just had a run of bad luck. It is unfortunate the encounter resulted in a TPK, but maybe they'll learn a bit for future reference?
RogerWilco
05-13-05, 01:06 PM That many 10th level characters failed there saves? You must have bumped up the Gaze DC quite a bit to be that potent.
Thanks for all the replies. I just used the DC15, and most of them had like a +8 Fort save. They rolled like 1, 3, 4, 12 or something like that.

We're not very experienced with 3.5 yet, having mostly played 2nd until this year. I guess their new characters will have more ranks in spot, as their first problem was that they failed to notice it.

Appart from the concealment rule that could have made a difference, I guess it was just a case of a lot of bad rolls and poor player tactics.

The last PC ran away and survives, he might be able get them resurrected within 24 hours, we'll see next week.
Merestil Haye
05-13-05, 01:52 PM One thing no-one has mentioned yet is the specific remedy to the Bodak's gaze, the Death Ward spell. A PC with that spell running should be able to take the Bodak. And since Death Ward is 4th level, having it available by that point is not too much of a stretch, is it?

We had a similar incident once. one PC had summoned a planar ally, and obtained an angelic being with moderately powerful clerical abilities on the side. One of the spells the MM gave the creature was Death Ward.

During the course of the 24 hours the PC bargained for, we came across three Bodaks. The DM decided the angel flew to attack them (cant remember why). The PC suggested he cast Death Ward, and the DM said no need; the Fort save was so high it would fail on a 1 only.

The angel flew up to the Bodak, rolled for the first save at 30', got a 1, dropped dead and disappeared. We were amused at the thought that the angel might rise again as a Bodak on it's home plane.
Norhg
05-13-05, 02:10 PM Anyone else had flukes where cr 2 monsters wipe out lvl 3 parties? Talking ogre here, those are nasty!
OnyxGhost
05-13-05, 02:53 PM those bugbear skeletons, 6 of them nearly took out a party of 3 level 3's, one being a cleric, another a fighter/rogue and a barbarian. The party came up through a flight of stairs into a cramped room with a rather large statue in the middle of it, only 2 bugbears could attack at a time due to the size but that was nearly enough to take them out. They had to find a safe spot to rest in the area and come back to finish them off. No bludgeoning weapons against skeletons = doom in early levels for players :P
Kintaran
05-13-05, 03:39 PM A party with one 14th level cleric facing an EL 12...has a scroll of fly? Winged Boots? Wings of Flying? Hell, Robes of Flying?

The scroll was some random leftover hiding on her character sheet. She's scanning it, going, "Uh, now what do I do," and finds the scroll. Must have been there since 4th level or so, along with various other, less useful scrolls. The cleric had a winged shield, but we figured we had the fight easy, so we did not bother. And there you are.

CR is calculated based on approximately average results in a relatively blank combat situation. As a result, unusual situations or horrific die rolls play with the result, a lot. At low levels, the lack of hit points/healing magic means that one lucky crit from an unexpected direction will screw the PCs that much more easily. Especially from high Str chumps like orcs.
mcnoo
05-13-05, 03:45 PM Anyone else had flukes where cr 2 monsters wipe out lvl 3 parties? Talking ogre here, those are nasty!

I lost a level 9 character to a kobold. I was a sorcerer, the rest of the party was on the other side of a rope bridge over a big chasm, I was fligning spells across at the BBEG they were fighting over there, I run out of long range spells so I head out across the bridge to buff up the party a little. The BBEG cuts one of the bridge ropes, leaving me dangling over the chasm holding on for my life, then his little kobold butler starts slinging stones at me. I failed a climb roll thanks to the damage I was taking and all the loot i'd picked up earlier and fell to my doom. I was displeased.
General_Ridley
05-13-05, 06:52 PM I love bodaks, but only when I'm fighting them with a high fortitude save character. MY anti-Paladin/Thrall of Demogorgon had a high enough fortitude to succeed against a bodak on a natural 2. So, I drew the bodak away from the rest of the party by looking straight at it each turn and charging it as often as possible. Then I slaughtered it after 2 more turns where I looked at it for the sheer fun of it.
VirgilCaine
05-14-05, 10:58 AM Okay, that's it. My characters will from now on have featherfall belts or boots of levitation or wings of flying or something to avoid falling to their deaths, because that's just embarassing.
mcnoo
05-14-05, 11:54 AM Okay, that's it. My characters will from now on have featherfall belts or boots of levitation or wings of flying or something to avoid falling to their deaths, because that's just embarassing.

I had feather fall on my list, but i'd used up all my level 1 spells casting grease (which is utterly deadly when fighting next to a big chasm and the enemies are running around the corner) and jump (to get the party across a few patches where my fireballs slightly destroyed the path leaving big drops to cross).
Now, the REALLY embarasing thing is i forgot for just that breifest moment of shock and supprise that i could stick one of my metamagic feats on it to make it a level i had spells left for.
VirgilCaine
05-14-05, 03:29 PM I had feather fall on my list, but i'd used up all my level 1 spells casting grease (which is utterly deadly when fighting next to a big chasm and the enemies are running around the corner) and jump (to get the party across a few patches where my fireballs slightly destroyed the path leaving big drops to cross).
Now, the REALLY embarasing thing is i forgot for just that breifest moment of shock and supprise that i could stick one of my metamagic feats on it to make it a level i had spells left for.

I wasn't criticizing you. It hit me that drowning or falling to your death isn't terribly heroic, so I would want to avoid it.
wonlee76
05-14-05, 03:59 PM I'm under the impression that when your party bumped into the Bodak you made them all roll a save against the gaze attack. I may just be misunderstanding the situation though. In either event, the Bodak uses the gaze attack like an attack action. 1 PC per round within the range of the gaze attack has to make a save. Its possible a few of your PCs could die to the gaze attack but what was the rest of the party doing when they watched one of their pals die? Attacking the Bodak? Running away? Making it a crispy critter? Or were there multiple Bodaks?

If I recall the gaze attack rules, the PCs could voluntarily try to fight the Bodak by partially concealing their eyes (20% miss chance) which results in the gaze attack missing 20% of the time. Or they could voluntarily try to fight in blinded and take all the penalties from being blind but at least immune to the gaze attack.
illiterate
05-14-05, 04:23 PM wiping out that party with a cr8 monster is easy.

wiping out the same party with a cr1? Now that takes skill..
Dungeon Master
05-14-05, 04:29 PM Everyone must make a save every round. The Bodak, on its turn can also force a PC to make an additional save (so that's 2 saves in one round for that PC). The PCs can avert their eyes, giving a 50/50 chance that the gaze affects them, or they can shut their eyes (making them effectively blind). The Bodak can avert its eyes or cover its eyes with transluscent cloth, giving the PCs 20% concealment but rendering its gaze ineffective. If a piece of muslin can stop the Bodak's gaze, I don't see why a PC can't just put the muslin over his own face, suffer the 20% concealment penalty, and not be affected by gaze attacks.

Also, don't forget that EVERYONE must make a save, including the Bodak's allies.
ff6shadow
05-15-05, 09:21 AM Actually, you wouldn't even need a metamagic feat. Could just cast featherfall using a higher level slot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RogerWilco 05-12-05, 07:37 PM	I had a party of 4 level 10 characters and some henchmen run into a Bodak in a cave. Being all human (only shadowy ilumination from the entrance of the cave) it more-or-less surprised them, and all but one died on their first fort save in the first round (the monk rolled a 1) Because of the unfavorable circumstances the encounter was maybe CR10 in my opinion according to the RAW. How do you gauge the Bodak and this encounter? As I read the Gaze ability all within 30 feet need to roll a Fort save or die, every round. Isn't this a bit much with all the other abilities like DR10/cold iron, etc. coupled with a CR8?
Lord Ian Stark 05-12-05, 07:42 PM	That many 10th level characters failed there saves? You must have bumped up the Gaze DC quite a bit to be that potent.
PaladinSix 05-12-05, 07:53 PM	The Bodak is one of those creatures for whom the CR system breaks down a little bit, since its most potent ability is based largely on the luck of the opponents. Or, in your case, on the bad luck of the opponents. In addition, the attack causes death, which makes it very much an all-or-nothing kind of ability. Those types of abilities are often very difficult to link to CR accurately. I think the +2 to CR for the unfavorable circumstances was probably justified. The problem is that the Bodak should probably not be listed as CR 8 to begin with. Personally, I would figure it around base CR 10, but its largely a judgement call. One section from the SRD on Gaze Attacks that you may have overlooked: If visibility is limited (by dim lighting, a fog, or the like) so that it results in concealment, there is a percentage chance equal to the normal miss chance for that degree of concealment that a character won’t need to make a saving throw in a given round. This chance is not cumulative with the chance for averting your eyes, but is rolled separately. Oddly enough, the Bodak's primary ability doesn't work as well in shadowy conditions, which is exactly the kind of conditions I would expect a Bodak to most commonly be found in. Oh well, another minor disconnect between the guys who write the rules and the guys who design the monsters.
EvilVegan 05-12-05, 07:56 PM	Oddly enough, the Bodak's primary ability doesn't work as well in shadowy conditions, which is exactly the kind of conditions I would expect a Bodak to most commonly be found in. Oh well, another minor disconnect between the guys who write the rules and the guys who design the monsters. Maybe thats why its CR is only 8? I mean, generally it would be in dim conditions, so generally there's a percent chance that the gaze doesn't even work.
PaladinSix 05-12-05, 08:01 PM	Thats certainly a possibility. Maybe the guys who designed the 3rd edition bodak looked at the rules for gaze attacks, recognized that the 'natural habitat' reduced its effectiveness, and therefore reduced the CR of the Bodak. Personally, I think thats giving too much credit to the designers; I don't think they even realized the discrepancy. However, if a DM rigorously enforces the concealment rules regarding the Bodak's gaze attack, then a CR 8 would seem to be more justified.
primemover003 05-12-05, 08:11 PM	Are you telling me no one in the 10th level party has Darkvision via magical means? No goggles of night, no potions? Are they using magic light or torches, sunrods and magic weapons to light their way? I'd call this poor Dungeoneering by the Party. Someone should have been able to see the Bodak at 60 feet (or at least get their Initial Encounter Spot check). At 60 feet they'd be out of the Gaze range and close enough for the Cleric to ID the Monster (free action) and get off a Turn check... Assuming you have a cleric.
Szat 05-12-05, 08:26 PM	The same thing happend to me. The party rounded a corner going nearly full tilt and ran smack dab into a Bodak waiting to ambush them. 3/4's of the party failed their saves. I was shocked, they need like a 4 or better and almost ALL of them rolled under that. Nearly ended the campaign if the other two members hadn't managed to make their saves and kill the thing in one round.
VirgilCaine 05-12-05, 08:40 PM	Thats certainly a possibility. Maybe the guys who designed the 3rd edition bodak looked at the rules for gaze attacks, recognized that the 'natural habitat' reduced its effectiveness, and therefore reduced the CR of the Bodak. Personally, I think thats giving too much credit to the designers; I don't think they even realized the discrepancy. However, if a DM rigorously enforces the concealment rules regarding the Bodak's gaze attack, then a CR 8 would seem to be more justified. I would have never thought to apply such a miss chance for a gaze attack. Very informative thread!
Horatio Hornblower 05-12-05, 09:54 PM	Are you telling me no one in the 10th level party has Darkvision via magical means? No goggles of night, no potions? Hey, if this 10th level group of humans was carelessly stumbling around in the dark then they had it coming. :nonono: Bet they don't make that mistake again. :D You need to see if you can get them to use better tactics. That way they don't get into a situation where they can all have bad rolls and get a TPK. When they roll up new characters (if they got raised it'll be later) you should convince them to have a better mix of races. All the same misses out on key abilities. Maybe a Bodak's CR is too low, but that's not what happened here. You did a great job running the monster. They just weren't ready for it and got unlucky too. Bad combo for the players.
Mirikon 05-12-05, 11:51 PM	Sounds like you ran the monster just fine. The party just got really unlucky. That's life. Gaze attacks can be nasty like that. Given the right combo of bad luck and good circumstances, any gaze attack can screw a party. The Medusa can also really mess with a party. Especially if you allow feats from Savage Species or the Slayer's Guide to Medusas.
Kintaran 05-13-05, 12:37 AM	A sudden string of low rolls on the PC end or high rolls on the DM end can suddenly swing a fight from 'in hand' to 'it's hit the fan.' One particularly painful incident: We have a party of three powergamed melee brawlers backed by a mage. Mine is particularly nasty, psionic critical augmentation, innate fast healing, all the most abusive parts of 3.0 psionics backed by a deliberately overbalanced prestige class. We are 14th level, taking on a trio of Frost giants. Their heads are basically ours, and we have one down with only the druid taking any hits, when one crits me. Even with an excellent damage roll and x3 multiplier, it chops less than a third of my hit points away, but I roll a natural one on the save against massive damage. Giant cleaves, DM rolls two twenties in a row (in the open too) and down goes the wildshaped druid, to about -8. The fighter/cleric tries to cast heal defensively, and gets a modified 20. DC 21 to cast heal defensively. They flank the cleric and beat down. We had them dead to rights, and only the mage ends up surviving the EL 12. And only because of her scroll of fly. The thing is, with any monster that has devastating criticals, save or die effects, or otherwise chancy, but powerful, abilities, the actual impact on the party will depend heavily on the die rolls, as evidenced by the previous little story. If I had not rolled that one, we would have finished them off with no difficulty. But, there you go, 75% percent fatalities.
VirgilCaine 05-13-05, 08:26 AM	We had them dead to rights, and only the mage ends up surviving the EL 12. And only because of her scroll of fly. A party with one 14th level cleric facing an EL 12...has a scroll of fly? Winged Boots? Wings of Flying? Hell, Robes of Flying?
Earndur 05-13-05, 08:36 AM	Gaze attacks are one of the most deadly attacks around! Not only must each character within range of the gaze attack attempt a saving throw against the gaze effect eact round at the beginning of his turn but ... A creature with a gaze attack can actively attempt to use its gaze attack as an attack action. The creature simply chooses a target within range, and that opponent must attempt a saving throw. Every round one unlucky PC may have to make two separate saving throws versus the creatures gaze attack! Ugly
olshanski_home 05-13-05, 09:38 AM	This is exactly why we always blind one member of our party. \kidding. Really, the CR is just about right. The bodak is a terrible combatant, and the ability doesn't kick in until they are within close combat range. The high level party should have had much better visibility.
Morka 05-13-05, 09:53 AM	I guess the CR is right. The problem is it's a save-or-die roll. If you include a bodak in an enemy group, the EL is higher, so the PCs should be higher level, and have a better chance to make the save. (In this situation, they only had to roll a 4 or better, imagine if they were a few levels higher!). And to calculate the EL, a CR8 for the Bodak should be ok.
scott644 05-13-05, 11:54 AM	Two things apply here. First is the fact that CR is built around a party of PC's being run intelligently by their players. If they aren't planning for contingencies and having occasional advantages for disadvantageous situations by the time they hit 10th level, they're not playing the fullest and really only deserve a CR6 encounter or such. Second is the situation was a clear case of "statistical clumping," which is what happens when random rolls suddenly tend toward a specific result. I played a PC once who was challenged to a duel by a superior fencer (it was a swashbuckling campaign). I should have hit negatives and lost, hands down. Instead, I rolled a stunning three critical hits to my opponent's one critical hit - and my opponent's last attack was a botch! Point being, there's really no accounting for luck. Now I've seen it written in more than one book about how a DM can reduce the luck factor if they wish. On the flip side, those same books generally mention how reducing luck ends up favoring the PC's and biasing the CR ratings in their favor. Frankly, I feel the encounter was handled correctly and the players just had a run of bad luck. It is unfortunate the encounter resulted in a TPK, but maybe they'll learn a bit for future reference?
RogerWilco 05-13-05, 01:06 PM	That many 10th level characters failed there saves? You must have bumped up the Gaze DC quite a bit to be that potent. Thanks for all the replies. I just used the DC15, and most of them had like a +8 Fort save. They rolled like 1, 3, 4, 12 or something like that. We're not very experienced with 3.5 yet, having mostly played 2nd until this year. I guess their new characters will have more ranks in spot, as their first problem was that they failed to notice it. Appart from the concealment rule that could have made a difference, I guess it was just a case of a lot of bad rolls and poor player tactics. The last PC ran away and survives, he might be able get them resurrected within 24 hours, we'll see next week.
Merestil Haye 05-13-05, 01:52 PM	One thing no-one has mentioned yet is the specific remedy to the Bodak's gaze, the Death Ward spell. A PC with that spell running should be able to take the Bodak. And since Death Ward is 4th level, having it available by that point is not too much of a stretch, is it? We had a similar incident once. one PC had summoned a planar ally, and obtained an angelic being with moderately powerful clerical abilities on the side. One of the spells the MM gave the creature was Death Ward. During the course of the 24 hours the PC bargained for, we came across three Bodaks. The DM decided the angel flew to attack them (cant remember why). The PC suggested he cast Death Ward, and the DM said no need; the Fort save was so high it would fail on a 1 only. The angel flew up to the Bodak, rolled for the first save at 30', got a 1, dropped dead and disappeared. We were amused at the thought that the angel might rise again as a Bodak on it's home plane.
Norhg 05-13-05, 02:10 PM	Anyone else had flukes where cr 2 monsters wipe out lvl 3 parties? Talking ogre here, those are nasty!
OnyxGhost 05-13-05, 02:53 PM	those bugbear skeletons, 6 of them nearly took out a party of 3 level 3's, one being a cleric, another a fighter/rogue and a barbarian. The party came up through a flight of stairs into a cramped room with a rather large statue in the middle of it, only 2 bugbears could attack at a time due to the size but that was nearly enough to take them out. They had to find a safe spot to rest in the area and come back to finish them off. No bludgeoning weapons against skeletons = doom in early levels for players :P
Kintaran 05-13-05, 03:39 PM	A party with one 14th level cleric facing an EL 12...has a scroll of fly? Winged Boots? Wings of Flying? Hell, Robes of Flying? The scroll was some random leftover hiding on her character sheet. She's scanning it, going, "Uh, now what do I do," and finds the scroll. Must have been there since 4th level or so, along with various other, less useful scrolls. The cleric had a winged shield, but we figured we had the fight easy, so we did not bother. And there you are. CR is calculated based on approximately average results in a relatively blank combat situation. As a result, unusual situations or horrific die rolls play with the result, a lot. At low levels, the lack of hit points/healing magic means that one lucky crit from an unexpected direction will screw the PCs that much more easily. Especially from high Str chumps like orcs.
mcnoo 05-13-05, 03:45 PM	Anyone else had flukes where cr 2 monsters wipe out lvl 3 parties? Talking ogre here, those are nasty! I lost a level 9 character to a kobold. I was a sorcerer, the rest of the party was on the other side of a rope bridge over a big chasm, I was fligning spells across at the BBEG they were fighting over there, I run out of long range spells so I head out across the bridge to buff up the party a little. The BBEG cuts one of the bridge ropes, leaving me dangling over the chasm holding on for my life, then his little kobold butler starts slinging stones at me. I failed a climb roll thanks to the damage I was taking and all the loot i'd picked up earlier and fell to my doom. I was displeased.
General_Ridley 05-13-05, 06:52 PM	I love bodaks, but only when I'm fighting them with a high fortitude save character. MY anti-Paladin/Thrall of Demogorgon had a high enough fortitude to succeed against a bodak on a natural 2. So, I drew the bodak away from the rest of the party by looking straight at it each turn and charging it as often as possible. Then I slaughtered it after 2 more turns where I looked at it for the sheer fun of it.
VirgilCaine 05-14-05, 10:58 AM	Okay, that's it. My characters will from now on have featherfall belts or boots of levitation or wings of flying or something to avoid falling to their deaths, because that's just embarassing.
mcnoo 05-14-05, 11:54 AM	Okay, that's it. My characters will from now on have featherfall belts or boots of levitation or wings of flying or something to avoid falling to their deaths, because that's just embarassing. I had feather fall on my list, but i'd used up all my level 1 spells casting grease (which is utterly deadly when fighting next to a big chasm and the enemies are running around the corner) and jump (to get the party across a few patches where my fireballs slightly destroyed the path leaving big drops to cross). Now, the REALLY embarasing thing is i forgot for just that breifest moment of shock and supprise that i could stick one of my metamagic feats on it to make it a level i had spells left for.
VirgilCaine 05-14-05, 03:29 PM	I had feather fall on my list, but i'd used up all my level 1 spells casting grease (which is utterly deadly when fighting next to a big chasm and the enemies are running around the corner) and jump (to get the party across a few patches where my fireballs slightly destroyed the path leaving big drops to cross). Now, the REALLY embarasing thing is i forgot for just that breifest moment of shock and supprise that i could stick one of my metamagic feats on it to make it a level i had spells left for. I wasn't criticizing you. It hit me that drowning or falling to your death isn't terribly heroic, so I would want to avoid it.
wonlee76 05-14-05, 03:59 PM	I'm under the impression that when your party bumped into the Bodak you made them all roll a save against the gaze attack. I may just be misunderstanding the situation though. In either event, the Bodak uses the gaze attack like an attack action. 1 PC per round within the range of the gaze attack has to make a save. Its possible a few of your PCs could die to the gaze attack but what was the rest of the party doing when they watched one of their pals die? Attacking the Bodak? Running away? Making it a crispy critter? Or were there multiple Bodaks? If I recall the gaze attack rules, the PCs could voluntarily try to fight the Bodak by partially concealing their eyes (20% miss chance) which results in the gaze attack missing 20% of the time. Or they could voluntarily try to fight in blinded and take all the penalties from being blind but at least immune to the gaze attack.
illiterate 05-14-05, 04:23 PM	wiping out that party with a cr8 monster is easy. wiping out the same party with a cr1? Now that takes skill..
Dungeon Master 05-14-05, 04:29 PM	Everyone must make a save every round. The Bodak, on its turn can also force a PC to make an additional save (so that's 2 saves in one round for that PC). The PCs can avert their eyes, giving a 50/50 chance that the gaze affects them, or they can shut their eyes (making them effectively blind). The Bodak can avert its eyes or cover its eyes with transluscent cloth, giving the PCs 20% concealment but rendering its gaze ineffective. If a piece of muslin can stop the Bodak's gaze, I don't see why a PC can't just put the muslin over his own face, suffer the 20% concealment penalty, and not be affected by gaze attacks. Also, don't forget that EVERYONE must make a save, including the Bodak's allies.
ff6shadow 05-15-05, 09:21 AM	Actually, you wouldn't even need a metamagic feat. Could just cast featherfall using a higher level slot.