Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emanuel Faust 05-02-05, 01:34 PM	Alright, the campaign was going extremely well. Now, right in the middle of the campaign, they have done something I did not expect and have relatively few ideas about what to do about. First...some background. I have three PCs. One a Human Cleric of Pelor, a Half-orc Fighter, and the last a very confused Halfling Wizard who are LG, CG, and NG respectively. The PCs tracked down the kobolds in the mines, discovered that the poor kobolds were just part of a much larger plot, found out about the vampire who masterminded it, slayed a few spawn, and tracked down the missing 15th Paladin Champion of the town that has been plagued by all this. They get into the vampire's lair, appropriately armed, and witness the final desecreation as the former Paladin Champion is turned into vampire himself. They kill the initial vampire, who was already severly weakened by its fight with the Paladin. Newly formed vampire cackles and flees. PCs begin the long quest of tracking this former champion of good down. They find out the new Vampire is in league with a fairly powerful evil Cleric. Plan the attack on said Cleric, fight their way through hordes of undead, and stumble upon the Cleric and former Paladin in a dark rite just as it is finishing. The former Paladin undergoes yet another transformation, his armor turning into a representation of the Balor that just made him (Demon Armor from the DMG) into a Blackguard 10/Paladin 5 (favored of the dark deities). Now comes the part I do not yet know how to deal with. The PCs desperately want to fight and try to redeem this lost soul. They are all at about level 12 at this point. They refuse to back down and I would really prefer not killing them. So far the only thing I can think of is to capture them, giving the rather lame excuse of needing them for a sacrificial rite. Does anybody have another suggestion?
weasel fierce 05-02-05, 01:51 PM	If they insist on fighting an obviously more powerfull enemy, I'd say chop them to pieces. Otherwise, have him teleport them somewhere dismal, where their battles to escape would fuel his demonic patrons powers.
Athryn 05-02-05, 01:52 PM	Well, as you said, they want to redeem him. The chance of them winning against a character of 3 levels + vampire CL adjustment in battle is quite low, but I can imagine two different possiblities to make this reasonably possible: 1) Turn it into a roleplaying encounter - after all, the vampire WAS once a Paladin. Maybe they can appeal to his former nature and convince him of the horror of what he's become? On the other hand, the fact that he just willingly became a blackguard makes this possiblity seem unlikely. 2) It seems like you made it clear to the PCs that this guy is way too strong for them. If you do manage to convince them to run away, that doesn't necessarily mean they have to give up on him. Perhaps he has a wife or somebody who could get through to him? Maybe the PCs can go on a quest to find a powerful magic item that will cure his vampiric state without having to go through the effort of destroying and raising him? BTW, they ARE currently staring at the vampire and cleric right after the ritual, right? Edit: Weasel is right. If they just attack the vampire, knowing how powerful he is, they deserve to be ripped to shreds.
Emanuel Faust 05-02-05, 01:57 PM	Well, as you said, they want to redeem him. The chance of them winning against a character of 3 levels + vampire CL adjustment in battle is quite low, but I can imagine two different possiblities to make this reasonably possible: 1) Turn it into a roleplaying encounter - after all, the vampire WAS once a Paladin. Maybe they can appeal to his former nature and convince him of the horror of what he's become? On the other hand, the fact that he just willingly became a blackguard makes this possiblity seem unlikely. 2) It seems like you made it clear to the PCs that this guy is way too strong for them. If you do manage to convince them to run away, that doesn't necessarily mean they have to give up on him. Perhaps he has a wife or somebody who could get through to him? Maybe the PCs can go on a quest to find a powerful magic item that will cure his vampiric state without having to go through the effort of destroying and raising him? BTW, they ARE currently staring at the vampire and cleric right after the ritual, right? Edit: Weasel is right. If they just attack the vampire, knowing how powerful he is, they deserve to be ripped to shreds. Luckily we had to end the session so they haven't attacked yet. They have been roleplaying the encounter, very well so far actually, but at the same time they feel that retreat is not an option...ever. So I am at a loss as to what to do besides kill them, subdue them, or deus ex machina...none of which I like at all.
Fixxxer 05-02-05, 02:06 PM	Luckily we had to end the session so they haven't attacked yet. They have been roleplaying the encounter, very well so far actually, but at the same time they feel that retreat is not an option...ever. So I am at a loss as to what to do besides kill them, subdue them, or deus ex machina...none of which I like at all. To be honest, I'd say it's not your problem to think up ways of saving them. If they don't believe that retreat is ever a tactically sound idea, then they deserve what's comming to them. Don't get me wrong...I admire them for not just running in and chopping things up like most players, but there's such a thing as covering your butts. If the PCs somehow manage to live and capture the target, and if you have access to it, you might consider using the rules for redemption from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
cambric 05-02-05, 02:11 PM	Luckily we had to end the session so they haven't attacked yet. They have been roleplaying the encounter, very well so far actually, but at the same time they feel that retreat is not an option...ever. So I am at a loss as to what to do besides kill them, subdue them, or deus ex machina...none of which I like at all. Ouch...tough choice. I'm firmly against deus ex-machina...choices are made and you live/deal with them. As for not wanting to back down, I had a group like that...and no matter how often I warned them, they wanted to fight on. I would say, "leaving to recoup to fight another day is far better than having to restart a new PC...be smart!" Well, it happened...they wouldn't back down...they had fought 2 fights, both were easily "winnable", but due to horrible rolls, they barely made it out...I thought, "good, now they'll go and rest before moving forward." Nope...nada...no way! They knew the next encounter was going to be TOUGH!! I "politey" reminded them of my advice...did they heed it? Nope! Stormed on in...3 deaths later, 2 of them running for their lives, they said, "huh...maybe we should rest." ya think?? was my comment. So...if they don't listen, sometimes the "best" thing you can do for them is to let them...there's nothing like a proper lesson of DM respect to make them think later on...even if that is with different PC's. Now, if they all do die, or most...maybe you can have the cleric and blackguard have to take off...the PC's can be "found" and raised somehow...but they all would be 1 level lower and NOW have someone to go after. Cam
Emanuel Faust 05-02-05, 02:21 PM	Alright, I thought of a fourth option that I am happier with than the other three and would love some feedback. I'm going to let them attack the Blackguard and Cleric. I have the strangest feeling they will lose. :schemes: Blackguard will betray Cleric (read: run through Cleric who is prostrated before still present but contained Balor), Blackguard and Balor will go to points unknown for the sake of murder/mayhem/destruction/fiendish love/whatever. Cleric will be not quite dead, wait for the duo to leave, and raise PCs afterwards for the sake of revenge. They lose levels and have a few items stolen/broken, and they learn to back down occasionally. Thanks Cam for the concept of raising, something they haven't had to do yet. Edit: Thanks Cam for idea. :P
Arrowhen 05-02-05, 03:00 PM	They have been roleplaying the encounter, very well so far actually, but at the same time they feel that retreat is not an option...ever. And if you don't hold them accountable for their actions, they'll never learn.
OneSidedDice 05-02-05, 05:25 PM	There is a kind of major flaw in your plan: When a spell to raise the dead is cast on a particular person, that person automatically learns a few things about the spell's caster, which I believe include the caster's alignment and deity. Are your PCs really going to accept such a spell from an evil-aligned caster, given the way they died and their apparently strong devotion to good?
cambric 05-02-05, 05:58 PM	There is a kind of major flaw in your plan: When a spell to raise the dead is cast on a particular person, that person automatically learns a few things about the spell's caster, which I believe include the caster's alignment and deity. Are your PCs really going to accept such a spell from an evil-aligned caster, given the way they died and their apparently strong devotion to good? Good point...but I would! Let's look at it this way: Evil Cleric raises us...tells us what we need to know, just to make sure we got all the details...we can try to kill cleric then or let him go on...we'll deal with one situation at a time. Emanuel...keep us updated, I'm interested in knowing what happens. Cam And...you're welcome!! Hope it turns out well.
OneSidedDice 05-02-05, 09:42 PM	The PCs have know way of knowing what kind of place they'll come back to, though. Is the evil cleric raising them to try to strike a deal, or does he have their bodies in adamantine chains, ready to raise them to torture them for his own amusement? Even worse, you could have some PCs accept the spells but some refuse. Just for the record, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think it is a good plan but there are some things that need to be worked out. For example, you could have the cleric use a sending to contact the PCs on the planes they go to after death (I believe when someone dies, he goes to his deity's plane or, in the event of him following no deity, he goes to the plane associated with his alignment).
Shaken, not Stunned 05-02-05, 09:47 PM	Actually, if he hasn't become a blackgaurd he is a lot like a fighter with no feats. It may be that he is within their capabilities if they are well prepared to fight a vampire.
Emanuel Faust 05-03-05, 05:39 PM	First and foremost to everyone, thanks for all the help and opinions. OneSidedDice: Always play Devil's Advocate. Not only is it useful, it's FUN! :P First, as this Cleric will be dying and used the vast majority of his power to summon and contain a Balor, he doesn't have much left he can do. I've decided he just kept one revival spell handy in case the Balor ate the former Paladin. As much as I'm sure most of them usually wouldn't, the CG I think would. I'm expecting his reasoning to be "Get revived and kill greater evil is a good thing" to overwhelm just who is resurrecting him. The rest of them will be resurrected later at a nearby Temple of Moradin. Shaken, not Stunned: He already is a Blackguard thanks to the ritual. The only reason he became a vampire in the first place was because he had already lost his Paladin powers, which made him far easier prey than he would normally be. Tonight we get to see if they actually attack or if a couple of days to think about it makes them think retreat is a better option. I'm hoping the Wizard talks some sense into the other two still and they retreat.
Athryn 05-03-05, 05:39 PM	Actually, if he hasn't become a blackgaurd he is a lot like a fighter with no feats. It may be that he is within their capabilities if they are well prepared to fight a vampire. 1) He IS a blackguard already. 2) Don't forget the evil cleric. Not to mention the Balor...
scott644 05-03-05, 06:18 PM	Raising/Resurrecting a character basically only gives their dead spirit enough awareness to know if they will be returned in a situation inimical to them. Being restored in order to be turned loose upon the new BBEG is hardly such a circumstance. However, it bears mentioning unless this cleric is extremely powerful this will take more than a single day and they will all lose a level in the process.
Emanuel Faust 05-03-05, 06:50 PM	First, yes this Cleric is extremely powerful. He summoned and contained a Balor after all. Secondly, between the time of death and the time of resurrection, the Blackguard and Balor will both leave. The Cleric will be on death's door himself after being run through with the former Paladin's sword. Before you ask how the Blackguard can do that to so powerful a Cleric, I more or less made up the summoning/binding ritual that brought the Balor forth and it takes total concentration. This is due to the fact that the Balor is Chaotic Evil while the Cleric is Lawful Evil and as such, the Cleric needs to try and keep control of the powerful creature. Lastly, this will be a final Miracle spell by said LE cleric. Essentially, its asking Hextor to revive a good person so they can destory Hextor's enemies. If I wanted to I could force them to be revived, but I won't. They will have a choice. Yes, they will all lose a level. However, Arrowhen brought up a very good point. If they aren't held accountable, they will just do anything they want. So...if they choose to attack, they die. If they choose to not be resurrected, they can make new characters. I gave them two chances. If they waste both...well, let's hope they learn.
pming 05-03-05, 07:40 PM	Hiya. My suggestion....if/when they draw weapons or otherwise prepare to fight, say something as DM, like: "Are you guys sure about this? The aura of power radiating from this guy is pretty potent...you can feel it in the air." And if they do proceed to attack...do this: Roll ALL your dice rolls in front of them. Everything. Do not hold back at ALL. Specifically try and kill their characters as you would think the villains intelligence and experience would allow. If they die, they die. It's not your fault, and they, as players, can't say "you just wanted to kill them". It was their choice, and they saw every single roll you made...100%. Reason: Try not to take this the wrong way, but if your players "never retreat" then I suspect that you, as DM, sort of, maybe, kinda..."coddled them" a bit. So, by rolling all your dice in front of them for this fight, they KNOW you are not pulling any punches. As soon as they realize that you, as DM, have no control over how many critical hits you roll....well, lets just say that it tends to sober up cocky players right quick! :)
OneSidedDice 05-03-05, 07:45 PM	Maybe another solution could be found. Why did the paladin turn blackguard? Was it a conscious decision on his part, or is it the result of some solution/magical item? The PCs, being the only nearby persons of enough power, may find themselves contacted by celestials who are rather miffed at losing one of their most powerful champions to evil. Perhaps the celestials could grant aid, or steer the PCs in a better direction ("You couldn't hope to oppose a warrior of his unholy power now, but there may be another solution. His salvation may be found in the Tears of the Martyr, a holy necklace last seen in the hands of Dernhelm the Pure as he wandered into the Worldsend Mountains. If you could find this necklace and get it on him, we're certain he would renounce his evil ways.")
Athryn 05-03-05, 08:52 PM	Maybe another solution could be found. Why did the paladin turn blackguard? Was it a conscious decision on his part, or is it the result of some solution/magical item? The PCs, being the only nearby persons of enough power, may find themselves contacted by celestials who are rather miffed at losing one of their most powerful champions to evil. Perhaps the celestials could grant aid, or steer the PCs in a better direction ("You couldn't hope to oppose a warrior of his unholy power now, but there may be another solution. His salvation may be found in the Tears of the Martyr, a holy necklace last seen in the hands of Dernhelm the Pure as he wandered into the Worldsend Mountains. If you could find this necklace and get it on him, we're certain he would renounce his evil ways.") I definitely think this NPC should have a chance of being redeemed by the PCs (not that it's my choice), but having a bunch of celestials come and say "don't be stupid" seems about as Deus Ex Machina as it gets.
Emanuel Faust 05-03-05, 11:01 PM	I have to agree with the Dues es Machina Celestials. I have been avoiding doing that since this campaign started. The blackguard transformation is voluntary. I left out why before because it was more or less irrelevant, but it is also one of the reasons they don't want to retreat. Here it is just cause I feel like sharing. The Paladin had some problems with the town he was living in. Namely they executed his son for murder. They didn't even wait for the Paladin to come home and try to investigate, thinking he'd be biased. It was later found out that the kid was just the lookout for a friend and had been completely duped, it was the other boy who was guilty. However, because someone else had already been found guilty of the crime the true murderer got away. He lost faith in justice then, becoming NG and losing his Paladin powers. About a month after that, while the PCs were out of town clearing the kobolds from the mines, the vampire attacked. The Paladin, still believing in good if not law, tried to hunt down the creature. Without his powers, he failed. The PCs arrived too late to stop him from being turned into a vampire. When it was done, he fled in horror of what he had become. He struggled against the evil that being a vampire entailed for months, but eventually was forced to succumb to his blood thirst. He then became NN, not yet a willing to commit slaughter but willing to drink the blood of humans to survive. The PCs had a hard time tracking him and had to bribe quite a few thieves to get the info they needed on the former hero. They caught up with him and the Chaotic Good, true to his alignment, charged first. The Cleric wanted to try and redeem the Paladin but couldn't get a word in edgewise. Swatting his attacker aside, the former Paladin thought he had been abandoned by his god. Between that and his son's murder, he threw good and law aside completely, becoming CE out of grief, the need for revenge, and his vampiric affliction. As such, he sought out the evil Cleric. The Cleric, thinking he could gain a powerful ally, put the vampiric former Paladin through a series of grisly 'tests' to see if he had the stuff to be a blackguard. The PCs tracked the now evil one through this horrible acts. They find out about the evil Cleric and go to try and appeal a final time to the former Paladin. Then this little problem happens. They roleplayed very well, trying to get the Paladin to turn back from the dark side. He more or less didn't care. They don't feel they can back down without abandoing him to evil forever. Gaming session is in 5 minutes, they just got here. I'll post how it goes after. Wish them luck, because they need it!
The Stray 05-04-05, 04:32 AM	so....WHAT HAPPENED!?!?
cambric 05-04-05, 08:01 AM	Yes, definitely tell us what happened!!
Treetrip Danglefoot 05-04-05, 08:36 AM	They could try and garner that information, and try to Miracle the son back to life. I think that would turn the paladin around. Or bring the real murderer to justice, although that might'nt help so much. If of course, its not too late.
sherretz 05-04-05, 09:09 AM	I'm definitely curious about what happened, now.
Emanuel Faust 05-04-05, 11:58 AM	Sorry about the long delay. Played till 3am then I work early morning shift till now. As for what happened... They died. Horribly. They thought that one of the cliched "fight and talk at the same time" would turn this former Paladin turned Vampiric Blackguard back to the good side. They were wrong. The Wizard went down first, failing a concentration check after being attacked. Then he was attacked again and again as he tried to retreat. The Cleric fought valiantly, using Cure Critical Wounds to damage the undead critter. He just got smited...repeatedly thanks to the whole 'favored of the dark deities' thing giving the new blackguard 5 per day...quite painful. Last but certainly not least came the fighter, who was doing amiably. The Blackguard was weakened even after using his dark version of lay on hands to heal himself. By some kind of bloody miracle the figher managed to disarm him as well. Unfortunately the blackguard used the power of his new Demon Armor, namely an unarmed strike that also casts Contagion. The poor fighter actually rolled a one on his Fortitude save and lost a great deal of Strength. After that it was over. On the upside of things, the Fighter also accepted the ressurrection by the evil Cleric. With the Cleric's lair now empty, he brought back a nice dwarven Cleric of Moradin to revive his two comrades. So now they are debating whether or not the Paladin should be saved or not...they debated it for about an hour before they left and were still debating it AS they left. So I dunno what is going to happen now. Thanks to everyone for the help!