Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mantel_DeMenglamaar 05-06-04, 05:55 PM	I've lurked on the boards for a little while (even before I got my actual user name)... I noticed a disturbing trend. An over reliance on templates and an assumption of widely available magic items, and so I present a challenge. Using mundane equipment, a mountainous environment, and no creatures with a CR above 6, create an effective challenge for a party of 4, 20th level characters (Wiz, Rog, Fgt, Clr). I mostly just want to sit back and observe. Challenges like this in my experience bring out that truly terrifying aspect of the DM, the aspect that makes him make the most out of the least. Any DM can hammer his party with a half-fiendish vampire ghost half-dragon axiomatic red dragon, it takes a certain level of resourcefulness to accomplish a challenge without relying on the whacky, or high CR. So unleash your legions upon legions of Kobolds, your sneaks with poison, your landslide causing troglodytes...or maybe even your tricky plots. There's nothing to gain out of this challenge besides the knowledge that you can at least try to be resourceful... And I benefit from seeing your evil ideas. :D
Maraxus 05-06-04, 06:41 PM	Human commoner level 10 (~CR5), elite array for Cha 18 (CR+1), 13 ranks in bluff, skill focus(bluff). Tells the fighter and the wizard (rogue and cleric could have sense motive) the other two guys are planing to betray them. Can't think of anything with better chances right now, you should at least allow small magic items. (Maybe 5,000 gold total for magic or something like that)
lotterybucks 05-06-04, 07:19 PM	as the party walks through the valley, 10000 manyshot-ing kobolds (all with 14 str. and +2 strength bonus longbows) hail arrows down at them. If only a natural 20 hits, 500 arrows hitting would equal 500d8+1000 damage in total. Assuming average rolls, 3000 damage divided among 4 characters would equal 750 per person. This would be possible assuming the kobolds all got a surprise round and the party didn't. Repeat again and again. If any one of them had DR, the plan would fail miserably. Others than that, I can't think of anything challenging on the spot.
zioth 05-06-04, 07:51 PM	How about a fortified castle with a small force inside it (5 CR6 wizards, 10 CR6 fighters, and 80 or so little guys). The castle and surrounding area are riddled with traps, and those inside have large drums of acid, tubs of boiling oil, and other nasty stuff powerful enough to overcome DR. The castle is built into the rock, so many areas are protected well enough to block out meteor swarms and the like. That should be an interesting enough challenge. Or how about this: A dozen level 6 wizards (evokers), each loaded up with magic missiles that do 3(d4+1) and melf's acid arrows that do 2d4/round for 3 rounds. The spells are heightened to fill all available spell slots. All 12 wizards are at a distance of 640ft (maximum spell range), and spread out evenly in a circle, so no spell can target more than one of them at a time. It'll take six rounds for a running PC to get to them (assuming standard movement rate). Even with faster movement, getting from one wizard to the next would take a very long time. Let's say the wizards have reasonably good saving throws, so that the PC wizard and cleric have to work together to kill one enemy in a round, while the other two PCs run as fast as they can, and use ranged attacks when they're close enough. Acid arrows would be focused on the wizard (who has the shield spell anyway) and the cleric, and magic missiles on the others. That might save them from one or two spells due to low rolls concentration checks. They could also back off 30 feet after each spell, so the cleric and wizard would have to chase them to attack, and it will take even longer for the melee types to catch up. Wow. That could be one long battle. At most, each wizard could get in 15 spells (bonus from speciality, bonus from int score), and lets say they manage to fire off 8 of them on average. That's 96 spells in total. If they were all magic missiles, that would be 10.5 damage * 96 spells = 1008 damage. Acid arrows would do more damage, but would miss a lot of the time. That damage would be higher if some of the missiles were maximized instead of hightened, and specific DR could be overcome with the Energy Substitution feat on the arrows. All told, the PCs could have a pretty tough time winning the battle.
Gandilas 05-06-04, 08:27 PM	Hello. A Mimic is CR 4. Hmm...imagine a dungeon populated with a Mimic colony. Each one disguised as varioius items: rugs, columns, chests, beds, doors, stairs, walls, etc, etc. A CR 20 encounter would be about 256 Mimics. I'd suggest upgrading the Mimic to a CR 6 creature (I'd suggest advancing them to 8-9 HD creatures, give them an extra point of Strength and an extra point of Con) and reducing the number down to something more managable. To prevent wholesale destruction of every sizeable object the party encounters, Mimic or not, be sure the party has to be careful with mass destruction spells - flammable item has to be recovered, gas mine, fragile floors/walls and such. I'd also like to point out that they're immune to acid, so liberal uses of acid traps, Mimics that look like traps, traps that look like possible Mimics, flammable/acidic gas, blah, blah, blah.
Fixxxer 05-07-04, 12:59 AM	A mountainous environment, you say? Eeeexcellent.... Let's start with a tribe of standard kobolds (let's say 15 of them) led by a single 4th level kobold sorcerer. To add just a bit of muscle, let's add an ettin with the improved bull rush feat (charmed into friendship by the kobold sorcerer). To make things interesting, let's assume a nice rocky ledge on the side of a mountain, nice and high in the air (these are 20th level PCs...you do have to make some effort to provide an interesting locale). Now, let's assume that with their numbers and their vantage, the kobolds can see the PCs comming with a fair amount of time to prepare an ambush. They take the fat from their most recent meal (a couple of mountain goats) and grease down the ledge pretty good. Slightly beforehand, the leader sends his friend the ettin down to the shallow cave in the mountain wall (after casting Bull's Strength on him) and has him block the entrace with a large stone (which effectively blocks the entrance, if not making it look like it isn't even there). The kobolds, meanwhile, remain on a higher platform, about 30ft above the PCs. When the PCs get past the cave entrance and get to the area that has been greased with animal fat, the kobolds all begin to hoop and holler, which alerts the ettin, who pushes the rock out of the way and begins charging at the PCs. Meanwhile, the kobolds drop rocks, fire crossbows and basically make life very distracting for the PCs (ie: they all use the Aid Another option), except for the leader, who erects a shield to help protect him and his tribe. Basically, the kobold tribe's job is to use the aid another option to make the ettin's job easier. The leader's job is to hold his action and to use his spells to interrupt any spellcasting that might be attempted. The ettin's job (made much easier by the animal fat, should the PCs try to back up or retreat up the ledge) is to bull rush the PCs off the ledge to certain doom. Admittedly, the plan is no perfect by any means. The PCs could get alerted ahead of time that something is up. They could win initiative and toast the ettin before it has a chance to become a threat. The wizard could blast the kobolds with a fireball, rendering them ineffective. The PCs could possess magic or magical items that allow them to fly. Despite these things, however, the situation does pose a potential threat to the PCs. Granted, it might be fairly easily overcome. However, it might not.
OmiKapSi 05-07-04, 02:57 AM	A tribe of goblins, charged by their shaman with returning the unholy statue of Magubliyet that smites infidels with a severe health drain, to it's rightful resting place in the highest pass of the Caldera mountains, are ambushed while navigating a narrow ledge by the mountain elves, and slaughtered to a goblin. Unable to fulfill their quest since the statue fell and was smashed, they remain, haunting the trail, doomed to torment any other who passes by, until the statue is restored and taken to its place. In a twisted form of kindness, they are all granted the ability to drain the health of any who pass, much as the statue drained the health of infidels. 80 ghost goblins, all with the Draining Touch ability. No save to resist the ability drain, and a cleric can only turn undead that they have line of effect to. Since all the goblins spend most of their time inside the rock of the hillside, any turning is only going to effect those that come out and attack. And since they only emerge one at a time, delivering a single draining touch each before being 'destroyed' (rejuvination), any who get initiative in their one round of attacks will deliver the touch. Since there's 80 of them, and they are delivering touch attacks, at least a quarter of them are going to get their attack to hit. 20 hits, at an average of 2.5 con drain per hit, is going to equal 50 points of constitution drained. Assuming an average constitution of 15 in the party, and especially if the most capable party members are dropped first, there's a pretty decent chance that this is going to be a very tough gauntlet to run. Now, that's the straigh rules challenge, but I figure that you're looking for a bit more, since you gave the perameters that you did. Scanning over the monsters available, I notice the baleen whale. And I'm thinking that a high altitude sperm whale and bowl of petunias would be an amusing encounter, if not particularly challenging. Now, a 20th level party has some pretty insane magic available to them, especially a wizard and cleric combo, that includes pretty much any spell in the book. The 20th level fighter's going to be able to deal with just about any direct combat, and the 20th level rogue is going to be able to cope with any skill checks (sorry maraxus, he's not gonna be bluffed). So, the only way to do it is going to be to come at it at a really obscure angle. More to come.
Treskin 05-07-04, 03:38 AM	As the old proverb goes: "1000 level 1 sorcerers with magic missile are the most terrifying force in all the land."
Jenny With The Lantern 05-07-04, 04:37 AM	Say 5-10 gauths (lesser beholders) in a small underground lair with an ingenious pit trap (covered by an automatically closing trap door) above dropping the first and second PCs to walk on it down into it (weight of the two is enough to open it..); a second trap door (also closing automatically) prevents the PCs upstairs from hearing what's happening to their fellow members, maybe makes them think they were teleported away.. Meanwhile the gauths have heard someone (lunch) coming and are fully prepared to eye-ray the poor guy to :b: Other entrances to the lair are vertical shafts.. All made by a true beholder who was killed by his smaller cousins (CR too high right..), dunno who put the trap there though _ ____ / _ ____ / :behold: :behold: :behold: :behold: Also has some obvious problems.. Ah well :D
Maraxus 05-07-04, 10:31 AM	Originally posted by lotterybucks as the party walks through the valley, 10000 manyshot-ing kobolds (all with 14 str. and +2 strength bonus longbows) hail arrows down at them. If only a natural 20 hits, 500 arrows hitting would equal 500d8+1000 damage in total. Assuming average rolls, 3000 damage divided among 4 characters would equal 750 per person. This would be possible assuming the kobolds all got a surprise round and the party didn't. Repeat again and again. If any one of them had DR, the plan would fail miserably. Others than that, I can't think of anything challenging on the spot. The problems: First, your kobolds have elite attributes (CR+1) and then they want to take a feat that requires BAB +6. So they are probably CR 7. :) But the main Problem: There is hardly a chance, that a kobolt ambushes a group of 20th level characters, there is no chance, that 10,000 of them amush them at once. 10,000 won't probably each come to a shooting position in a single round. OK, now comes the big masterplan. I have unlimited legions of doom? :devil: Step 1: Ambush: Send in 6 Troll/Barbarien 1. Step 2: Start the bodyless troops: 20 Shadows (Elite Attributes (Primary Dex), improved HDs), 20 Allips (Elite Attributes (Primary Cha), improved HDs) and (!) 20 Nishruus (Monsters of faerun). Step 3: Unleash the horde: 1000 Gibberings (Monsters of faerun)(Barbarien3, Fighter 2, Elite Attributes) mixed with 100 Goblins (Wizard 5, elite Attributes). -Half of the goblins have two dispel magic, readied to counterspell, the other half fires Lightning Bolds and Magic Missles at the Nishruus. -The Allips use babble, Will Save 19 or hypnotism, goblins should stay out of the 60ft range, the other troups are immun. Fighter and rogue are out. -The shadows attack the group from above, maybe dealing some strenth damage, in any case meat shielding the Allips against the clerics turning. -Nishruus make wizard useless. Very simple. -The trolls should be dead and the gibberings fall over the group. With bunching and very much rageing, they should be able to grapple and kill the wizard and cleric and strike dead the hypnotised fighter and rogue. PS: Oh, a horde of gibberings would only be 20-100. 1,000 of them are two waves. :)
Black Kitten 05-07-04, 12:19 PM	EDIT: Never mind, not awake
scott644 05-07-04, 02:41 PM	Mundane equipment. Mountainous environment. No CR above 6. Standard party (Wiz, Rog, Fgt, Clr) of 4 20th level characters. Now, deliberately having not read the other responses (I accidentally saw something about kobolds, so I'll avoid them), here's my submission. 1) The setup. Appropriate story hooks have drawn the party into a box canyon. Only one entrance to the canyon, with extremely brittle, vertical walls. The entrance is 50-100 feet, and relatively narrow. The entire canyon is also forested, concealing the fact they've walked into such a canyon rather than through a large gully or small pass. The climate is termperate. 2) The situation. The PC's have no trouble entering the canyon or establishing a secure camp for the night. The next morning however, everything will be changed. The canyon is over-run with monstrous vermin and worse, and their arrival will have disturbed more than one nest of the troublesome variety. First, a colony of 5 monstrous spiders (huge) have spun their webs across and through the entire length of the entrance, secured against the walls. The pc's could make strength checks to get through the webs as normal, but if they do too well they could crack and topple the walls - both injuring themselves and blocking their escape. They could burn the webs, but the vegetation in this are carries a particularly flammable resin that burns very easily (modelled after the fire-loving ecosystem of California), and could very quickly ignite an force the pc's to run back into the canyon as they try to escape a wildfire of their making. The rampant flames could also become so fierce they open a temporary vortex to the plane of fire (DM's option), and we all know what could step through then. Further, the flames would almost certainly finish the job of cracking the entrance walls, yet again blocking the pc's exit from the canyon. Naturally, the spiders are well behind the first of the webs, affording them effectively high amounts of cover from ranged attacks. Survival check (DC 20) to realise the fire threat and spot check (dwarven stonework applies) to detect the threat from the walls. Spider CR 5. Second, the walls of the canyon are covered with tough, thorny vines (1d6 hp damage per round of rigorous contact such as climbing, minus 1 point per point of physical/natural armor) sporting flowers that produce a mildly poisonous scent (acts precisely as the sleep powder alchemical item from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting). Given that they're a couple hundred feet up, this virtually guarantees the pc's will face numerous save checks just trying to climb out, and we can all guess what happens when even one fails their save. All mundane. Third, the woods have a thick canopy, providing twilight conditions even in daylight. Multiple encounters with various giant beetles should be expected. As the hunting is good, several giant praying mantis lurk in the canyon as well. Two nests of rather nastily territorial giant wasps exist on opposite ends of the canyon; flying and climbing pc's will find them most annoying. Several mature spider eaters may be found as well. Fourth, there are overhangs in the canyon walls, concealed by the vines until the pc's are right on them. These are all in use as lairs. Lair 1 and 2) Monstrous centipede (gargantuan). An ambush hunter, will strike at any bodies which disturb the vines at the entrance to the cave. A tunnel (too small for the critter) leads into a cave complex in the walls of the cavern. Monster CR 6. Lair 3) A swarm of monstrous spiders (small) will emerge to attack, much as the centipedes above. With their hands busy trying to keep from falling, this is a nasty situation for the pc's. Monster CR 1/2. Lair 4 and 5) A storm of stirges in each. How could they pass up dinner when it practically walks into the den? Monster CR 1/2. Lair 6) A tribe of Grigs has made their camp here. The forested canyon suits their need for privacy, although they're not too fond of some of their neighbors. This one should be initially hostile as the grigs face unexpected travellers, but successful role-play could actually provide the pc's with the one ally they'll find in the place. They have access to the tunnels, and a small exit to the forest level of the canyon therebye. Monster CR 1. Lair 7) A swarm of shadows has taken residence and eventually attacks all surviving visitors to the canyon. These are some of the neighbors the grigs would gladly be rid of, half residing here at any time and the rest skulking in ambush throughout the canyon. Monster CR 3. Lair 8) A pack of shadow mastiffs has adopted this cave near the canyon floor. Woe betide the traveller these predators find. They like to follow groups being harassed by the shadows, then attack them from behind as they begin attempting the climb out of the canyon. Monster CR 5. Lair 9) Centipede swarm. They're so cute and cuddly - not! Monster CR 4. Lair 10) Rat swarm. Another cave near the ground. Excellent for scavengers like rats. Monster CR 2. Lair 11) Spider swarm. Monster CR 1. Tunnels. There are several potential problems here. One is a troublesome ethereal filcher (CR 3). The grigs patrol the tunnels aggressively, keeping them clear as possible, but really only succeed in keeping the passage to the ground secure. A troupe of ettercap finish the collection of unwelcome neighbors for the grigs, and in fact provoked the spiders to close the entrance in order to run a collective ambush against the pc's. (ettercap CR 3) The tunnels open into multiple small caverns and are populated throughout by quantities of fungus (the floor is in fact carpeted with lichens and fungi). Every cavern is populated with a mixed patch of shriekers and violet fungi (CR 1 and 3 respectively), with nearly 100 of each available in total. Altogether none of these is a big item. Combined, we have a small adventure I wouldn't even toss at a 10th level party for the sheer nastiness involved. These are 20th level pc's however, so any concept of mercy can probably be forgotten. Everything is designed to wear the pc's down, and make them vulnerable. The ability-damage focus adds an element of danger most low-CR monsters wouldn't normally present; so many in rapid succession, is a threat few pc's will ever wish to face. As pc's of this level can be expected to have virtually every form of transportation available, such have been elimenated or made extra hazardous. Flying and climbing especially. Planar travel and teleport remain obvious exits, but the thought is if they had those why were they travelling on foot here in the first place? Waddaya think?
Metis 05-07-04, 03:05 PM	How about some Dragonkin? CR 3 with 7d8 HD and +7 BAB is a good base. Throw a few barbarian or fighter levels on them and you've got a dangerous swarm. Their only weakness is magic, so they'll have learned by now to take out the mage first. Have the use their Flyby Attacks to maxium effect, keep them spread out to avoid area effect spells, perhaps put a greatbow into the hands of a couple of them. According to Tiera Starr's Encounter calculator 126 CR 6 creatures are a challenge (EL 20) for a party of 4 ECL 20 characters. 126 creatures with 7d8 +3d12 + Con HP, and +10 BAB is going to be rough.
SmiloDan 05-07-04, 04:02 PM	I have a party of 9, 8, 7, 7, 6 PCs. I put them up against a lamia (CR 6), a hag with a single level of Sorcerer (CR 6), and a harpy with 2 levels of Fighter (CR 6), and they rocked! And my PCs are very clever and resourceful, so I was proud. How about Wyverns that grab and drop?
pres_man 05-07-04, 04:33 PM	How about an army of 128 level 3 monk ogres all with improved grapple and deflect arrows? Charge PC's from all sides and attempt to grapple who ever they can catch. Sling stones at the ones flying.
dorf0 05-07-04, 04:41 PM	1) Whole area of the mountain is affected by magic that is always redirecting any form of planar traver or teleport to the peek of the mountain. The bottom of the mountain is surrounded by invisivble field like teleportating circle that always teleports to top of mountain. Casting disjunction or dispels makes the field instatnly reset. Any use of dimension space bag of holding,rope trick etc is immposible. For some weird reason antimagic field is not supressing those effects. (high level epic spell or just weird working wild magic zone) If the ghost is destroied it reforms in 2days so we need a about 50 ghosts, that will keep on trying to kill everyone till their bodies are burried in a grave. (bodies are scatered all around mountain burried under snow or ashes or something) Every 60 min 1 level 1-4 wizard ghost comes out from the ground and touches cleric. It can act first (surprise round). 1 round before leaving the ground it casts true strike (or you can skip true strike dosn't matter much). The point is that at some point cleric will run out of restorations and won't be able to meditate becouse ever 1 hour he/she will be interrupted, and will need 1h more of rest. As an add you can sometimes send an avalanch if the try to shout or cast some exploding spells. Main objective is not to let them rest EVER. 2) Who said level 20 PC has to be level 20 always, let them dream durring rest that they are level 1 commoners. Every night they fail to solve some quest in their dream, they wake up 1 level lower. Quest could be to save some highlander doughter kidnaped by a ogre level 3 barbarian (14 int), who actually loves her. Join 1+2 The kindnaped girl cursed whole village for not helping her and had to suffer raping her every day for 40 years by ogre who just wanted her to born him a boy. (1 hour of sleep is enough to have the dream when you are level 1 commoner, the dream is only once every 24h) They will wish to sleep to meditate spells, and will fear to sleep becouse every time they try to sleep and fail to solve the quest they are 1 level lower. If they fail to smart out the ogre for 21 nights they will become ghost hunting next adventurers.
Vanigo 05-07-04, 05:21 PM	The party is on a narrow ledge on the side of a cliff above a raging river. There's a high-level wizard's home nearby with an active wierdstone, which blocks scrying and teleportation (among other things) in a (IIRC) 5-mile radius. He's a couple miles away, so he won't be involved personally. The cliff above the party is very rocky and unstable, and could easily turn into an avalanche. A small tribe of kobolds (including one sorcerer) lives on a higher cliff. The party goes by in the middle of an enormous storm with winds high enough to prevent flight, which also drops visibility and hearing range almost to nil. When the party goes underneath the kobolds, an alarm alerts them, and they drop some rocks, triggering an avalanche.
Vumyan 05-08-04, 03:15 AM	A few clerics and some wizards with the invisibility spell. The party is walking along a narrow passage on the side of the mountain, when invisible clerics cast stone shape, turning the passage into a smooth slide for the adventurers to fall to their death.
pog 05-08-04, 05:04 AM	Lots of small creatures throwing big rocks on party??? Cauding landslides, mudslides, suicidally grappling characters in an attempt to push them off the edge of a very narrow ledge - backed up by very bad weather and wizards with wind type spells???? The small creatures have also got lots of oil, alchemists fire and flammable material to rain down on the besieged party. Followed by rotting carcasses infected with the most horiffic diseases. Not to mention hundreds of poisoned arrows, darts, caltrops etc. I still think the PC's would survive quite easily at level 20 - unless you had them stumble into a naturally occuring anti-magic field or something ridiculous. Your only other option is a role-playing encounter.....
D+1 05-09-04, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Mantel_DeMenglamaar Using mundane equipment, a mountainous environment, and no creatures with a CR above 6, create an effective challenge for a party of 4, 20th level characters (Wiz, Rog, Fgt, Clr). I would note that much of the suggestions being offered qualify more as TRAPS, or simply drown the characters in numbers. Myself, I kinda feel that neither is a particularly creative tack. A 20th level character can have rocks dropped on their head and take the same damage whether the rock is dropped by a CR 6 creature, CR 1, or CR18. If it's 1000 creatures what does it matter if it's 1000 sorcerors, 1000 orcs, or 1000 ankhegs? If you want an encounter whose challenge is derived from the creature itself you NEED higher CR creatures to meaningfully challenge characters of such lofty levels. For base creatures of CR6 that means heaps of templates, advancement, and so forth. However, creating certain-death traps can be done as easily with kobolds as it can with Storm Giants.
Mythmere 05-13-04, 01:39 AM	Let's see. The comment on traps is appropriate; the challenge is to threaten the party with tactics. That would include ambushes, traps and environment, but not certain death situations. 1) restrict certain spells, but not with gimmicks. They have to retrieve three origami (folded paper) items from a location. Nixes fire spells. The fact that the item is made of paper has to come at a point where the party is already committed (has memorized fire spells) and can't pull out. Give them a chance to discover the fragility of the item if they do their homework beforehand. This will also load them up with detection and divination spells, further restricting their arsenal of spells. This fact should be made clear from the get-go, unlike the fact that the item is paper. 2) The actual dungeon is very fragile, held up with wooden beams in most cases. This is also news. Sonic spells risk cave-ins unless the spells are shaped. Also limits fire spells. 3)Time limit. The 6th level evil mastermind will destroy the origami by a particular time unless he is stopped. It is to be a part of an evil ritual on a particular date. This will prevent the "let's go back and rememorize" gambit. 4) An altar that requires the blood of a good-aligned person; 10 hp worth of blood. You've got to sap them bit by bit. Can they get through the stone around it? Yes. Burn those spells. 5)Revolving door to a pit trap on the other side, with an opening mechanism operated from a remote location, if you consider this a portcullis. Knock spell won't work. Slows someone down. Next person through the revolving door (and a mechanism to slow it down by a round or three, if the players don't disable it, and the mechanism is not easily accessible) faces trolls that are augmented with bull's strength, cat's grace, some form of energy resistance to fire, all by a 6th level sorcerer in the next room (alerted by an alarm spell). The floor is littered with origami. The sorcerer has a cloak of resistance and whatever other charm protections are consonant with a 6th level sorcerer. He has good cover behind an arrow slit, and a wand of cure serious wounds (for use on his trolls). The origami the players are searching for is not in the room. Charmed trolls can't reach the sorcerer. The trolls are wearing armor to augment natural armor. 6) Levitated origami provide good cover for the next monster; such good cover that the players can't make out what it is. It's a low level illusion. The actual monsters are behind several curtained alcoves. Several of them are invisible, zombies dressed as wizards, wearing masks to disguise their undead nature. Each has an origami on a necklace. One is the one the players need. Watch the players panic about how to get it safely. Meanwhile, the orcs attack from the alcoves. Each alcove has a low level sorcerer (4th level?) behind an arrow slit to cast true strike on the orcs. The sorcerers then bug out to the next location while the orcs attack with their +1 mancatchers and their +1 swords. Some will attempt to grapple anyone that looks like a spellcaster. They keep their distance from each other to avoid cleave, using precise shot if they need to hang back. That's all the time I have, but it gives the idea. The fact that one of the origami items was hung around a zombie's neck will make the party very cautious about cutting loose in the encounters that follow this one.