Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shifting Master 02-16-04, 01:09 PM	Throughout my D&D playing, I have DMed a single group. This group has been working well together for a very long time (this is our second year). Suddenly, there have been problems. Let me describe the group (it is split into three sections): Section 1 (the DM): Me (the DM): I am the normal stuck-in-the-middle-of-OOG-conflicts DM. Section 2: This section is the group of three that seems to be more interested in other things than D&D. Fighter: He is a major problem. This PC is extremely obnoxious and constantly disturbs the session. He tells jokes while I am talking and is only concerned about fighting creatures. If he was not one of my best friends, I would kick him out. Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple: This PC is often found joking around and being childish, though he knows my limits and respects them. He is very concentrated if he is focused on playing and would not be as much of a problem if the fighter weren't there disrupting his focus. Samurai: This is my best RPing PC, but seems to be out of wack lately. I am not sure if he is even interested in D&D anymore. Section 3: From their character choices, you would think that they would be as loud as Section 2, but they are actually very focused on playing. Rogue: I admit, I favor this PC a little. He is very cooperative and easy to play with, and almost always has his head in the game. He is not as concerned about OOG during D&D as he is about what is going on. He listens to what I'm saying and pays attention to the scene. Basically, the perfect PC. Archer: This PC has a fixation on the greatbow (from CW) and is an ex-powergamer (he announced it last session). I have balanced out his character with him and been careful to make sure he was following the rules. Was a problem PC, but is much easier to handle now. Barbarian: This PC jokes around within my limits. He'll sneak my BoVD out from under me during the session (which he will readily give back if I ask him, so it isn't a problem at all) or crack a joke when in one of the bars in game. He is very concentrated on the game and I enjoy DMing him. You've probably guessed it. PCs in Section 2 are :censored:ing off the PCS in Section 3 during the session. I would kick out the fighter, and that would be the easy solution. Unfortunately, it is not that easy. The PC's character is a major plot point in the game, and I can't shift that plot point to someone else. (Specifically, he wields the weapons that must kill the BBEG.) Does anyone have any suggestions to get my group to get along?
tate 02-16-04, 02:18 PM	Well as a DM who constantly runs into problems with players not being into the game, you gotta just relax a bit. If the fighter doesnt want to play he doesnt have to, so if he (or anyone else in "Section 2" wants to quit, let them. That might mean more work for you in re-writing some plot stuff, but nothing that some DM finesse cant fix. But above all, remember its just a game and people play it to have fun. My gaming group takes about 5 hours to play out 2-3 fights. This is because we constantly get off-topic and joke around, and get really into combat sometimes, using movie analogies and such. But basically thats our style of play. If you want a more intense gaming session (which I used to want, but have since given up on :) ) then the players you are with now may not be the group for that. Maybe start DMing two campaigns, one thats a goof-off just for the heck of it type thing, and the other one is "serious" D&D. Its a social game and thats that. It took me a while to get used to that, but since I have I have never been embarrassed about spending a friday night playing D&D (well. . .maybe a little ;) ) Overall, good luck with the players, they just may not be as into the game as you would like them to be, so maybe its time for them to move on.
VirgilCaine 02-16-04, 03:01 PM	First, give the Fighter an ultimatum. Behave in the future, or be politely asked to leave the group. Second, ask the Samurai if he wants to keep playing. Talk to him. If not, part amicably. Third, try to avoid plots or plot points that depend explicitly on something PCs will do or on one PC. They will surprise you easily and are unpredictable. Unfortunately, it is not that easy. The PC's character is a major plot point in the game, and I can't shift that plot point to someone else. (Specifically, he wields the weapons that must kill the BBEG.) This is easily fixed if someone else can wield the weapons---which you did make sure to make it a common weapon, like a spear or a dagger...didn't you? If not, someone else should be able to wield them...just make sure the party has a reason to hang on to them if they otherwise wouldn't--like if the weapon is a spiked chain or a greataxe--okay, other PC left, he forgot his weapon (or the Rogue stole it) for whatever reason, and then, the others are on the way to sell the weapon, when they hear the INTELLIGENT weapon speak to them. Perhaps it feels like it needs to stay with them, or something, because of destiny or whatever, but they might not sell it so hastily, especially since intelligent weapons are known to be highly magical...;) Now, you don't have to make it a +5 Keen spiked chain of shock, a +2 weapon might do, depending on your PCs levels.
Shifting Master 02-16-04, 03:10 PM	Originally posted by VirgilCaine First, give the Fighter an ultimatum. Behave in the future, or be politely asked to leave the group. Second, ask the Samurai if he wants to keep playing. Talk to him. If not, part amicably. Third, try to avoid plots or plot points that depend explicitly on something PCs will do or on one PC. They will surprise you easily and are unpredictable. This is easily fixed if someone else can wield the weapons---which you did make sure to make it a common weapon, like a spear or a dagger...didn't you? If not, someone else should be able to wield them...just make sure the party has a reason to hang on to them if they otherwise wouldn't--like if the weapon is a spiked chain or a greataxe--okay, other PC left, he forgot his weapon (or the Rogue stole it) for whatever reason, and then, the others are on the way to sell the weapon, when they hear the INTELLIGENT weapon speak to them. Perhaps it feels like it needs to stay with them, or something, because of destiny or whatever, but they might not sell it so hastily, especially since intelligent weapons are known to be highly magical...;) Now, you don't have to make it a +5 Keen spiked chain of shock, a +2 weapon might do, depending on your PCs levels. Come to think of it, the PCs know that the weapons are intelligent. The weapons are +4 icy burst (this way, the fighter can actually deal damage at higher levels) and are a longbow, a longsword and a halberd, all items that the barbarian can and probably would easily wield. Hmmm...
Rogue_Jedi_99 02-16-04, 03:41 PM	My grroup was in situation like this lately. The reason I (a two-weapon ranger) was cracking jokes all the time is because I was sitting around a lot and not able to role play or adventure. I figured that may be if the DM and the PC saw how silly there role playing was (the were role playing bubble baths I kid you not) they would stop and we could do something that I was able to role play. Maybe you need to focus inward a bit and run adventures that are not so rogue centric. Trust me if you put the fighter in a leadership position I bet he will shine.
Eldren 02-16-04, 04:22 PM	Aside from the player of the Samurai, who you aren't sure wants to play the game any longer (you should ask him, and if he doesn't, let him know that he isn't required to stay), it sounds like you have a mixed group of gamers. You've got one group who like really immersive role playing, and like getting into their characters from the time they sit down at the table to the time everyone packs their books up and heads home, and you've got another group who are "social gamers". Social gamers are often people who enjoy the game, but they gather together to socialize with each other and hang out with friends as much as they do to actively game. Because of this, they're often perfectly happy with a combination of jokes, side conversations, and actual gaming. If nothing else happens, they'll consider a night of this combination to be a "successful session". But it sounds like you, as the Dungeon Master, have a higher preference towards the in-depth role players who prefer to get into character and focus on the game from start to end. There's nothing wrong with either style, but there's often a clash when both styles come together in the same group, and it often causes Dungeon Masters no end of headaches as they attempt to corral the group together. It's, as my pastor would say, kinda like "herding cats". You may need to either split the group in two if there are enough people to do so (and it doesn't really sound like there are), or you may have to tell the players you feel are disruptive that you aren't comfortable with their level of active interaction in the game. Let them know that while you don't mind jokes, you think the amount of joking is a bit excessive, and it's affecting the other players' ability to enjoy the game. Ask them to try to stay on topic more, and keep the jokes to a minimum, and see if it works over the next couple of sessions. If it does, great. If it doesn't, then you should probably just talk with each of the disruptive players personally outside of the game and let them know that you don't think it's a good idea for you all to keep gaming together, and that you should probably split up as amicably as possible to avoid hurt feelings. If they make promises to be better and not be so disruptive, tell them you'll give them one more session to see, and then observe them session by session to see if their behavior improves. If it does, then over time stop paying so much attention to them, and keep gaming. But if they can't even go one more session without being disruptive, then at the end of that session, ask to speak with them privately, and let them know that they shouldn't return next session, that you just don't think it's going to work out. At that point, be firm. They may react badly, and you may hurt their feelings, but there have to be consequences for actions, or no one learns anything in life. Then just put some strong effort into finding new players to replace those; if there's a gaming shop in your area, or if you live near a larger city that has one, go there and see if they have a posting board that lets players or DMs advertise for games. If they don't, consider coming to the Gamer Classifieds board here on the WotC site and post something with your town and state, and what game you're playing, in the subject line, then give specifics (don't talk about the players who left; this is about finding new players, not griping about disruptive players who aren't in the campaign any longer), and then let people know how many you're looking for, and give them a means to contact you (either through PMs here on the WotC site, or to an external e-mail address). I hope things work out for you.
Ilanthe 02-16-04, 04:25 PM	One point I find puzzling: the fighter wields the weapons that can kill the BBEG - all 4 of them? He can hardly fight with all of them at once, so it seems like some sharing out might well be in order anyway. Perhaps your friend has lost interest in D&D a little. Perhaps he gets bored if the action isn't centred on fighting or himself? The only way to be sure is to ask him. If he is bored with it, then it would no big thing for him to stop playing for a while. Do the PCs know that these weapons are needed to kill the BBEG? If not, then you can change it. If they do, arrange that they keep hold of them. And by the way, however tempting favouring one PC isn't a good idea, everyone should have their moment in the limelight. You have a few options here: 1. Talk to your friend and get him to stop joking around - at least enough that it doesn't disrupt the game for the other players. 2. He stops playing - hopefully amicably if he's bored anyway. Ditto the samurai. 3. Run two separate games - one serious, one for goofing. You could even roleplay the split, giving the two groups different tasks to perform, and leaving the option open to get back together later. Good luck.
Big Dawg 02-16-04, 04:26 PM	phase 1: Lightning flashes across the sky (yell this load for effect and to get attn of PC's) Phase 2: The fighter's STR goes Down and his CHA goes up :D (this makes the fighter know you mean it when you say "Shut the F up!) Just as you will not kick him out he will not leave BC your good friends. Anyway, if he does problem solved, if he doesn't then he has to play a fighter with high CHA and Low STR. Phase 3: Stats return to normal when fighter stops screwing around. (this ussually takes about 2 min. one min to look stunned at his new 18 CHA and 10 STR, and one min. to think about it and stop disrupting the group.) Phase 4 Repeat if it happens again
StoryTellerSJEM 03-25-04, 06:21 PM	I feel for you here. My campaign is growing in a direction of self improvement with more roleplaying and more challenges. It's not just about the PCs winning over and over anymore. A few PCs couldn't make the shift so they are leaving. This is hard on me as they have been in the group for years. But, if it's going to go anywhere, it's got to be.
Steelwill 03-26-04, 01:30 AM	Well, from your description it sounds like about half your group has lost interest and the other half still has interest. Typically I have found when player' are more interested in goofing off than playing the game, that means the game has grown stale for them, wither because of the current plot, their current character, or just in general. In the first two situations, you might need to converse with players about their interest in their characters or the current story arc, and see what comes of it. In the latter there is very little you can do, and should probably discuss reforming the group with those who are most intereted in playing, even if it means scrapping the current plot and coming up with something new for those who stay. In either case the issues need to be addressed, of not because of anyone else's failing interest but your own. Before anyone announces that you or I should chill and just have fun, consider that you as the DM are entitled to fun as much as any player or group of players, and if all of the out of game joking and side chatter is killing the game for you, then it needs to be addressed, and don't let anyone tell you that you are being to uptight about it. If a player decides its not fun and leaves, the group still has several players and a DM that can continue, if the DM decides the game is no fun and leaves, more often than not, you have ended gaming for that group. There are many more players than DM's out there, so don't feel guilty for trying to keep the game fun for yourself as well. My advice is to adress the issues with the group on whole and let people speak there piece without necessarily pinning fault on any one person or subset of players, let everyone air grievances. If that doesn't work, then speak specifically with those problem players. IF the fighter is your best friend, you should be able to tell him that he's causing problems and its ruining the game for you and others who are trying to focus on the story. I have had my share of issues like this in groups, and sometimes you have to make difficult decisions if you want to keep gaming, especially where dissruptive palyers are concerned. Clearly you don't mind a little casual joking, but you know why you are gathered, you want to game, so in no way is it unfair for you to make your issues known. My 2 cents, I hope it helps.
Rian Lightblade 03-26-04, 01:07 PM	It can be hard to keep a group together over the course of several years, although two years seems a little soon to be having problems. My current group and I have been together for about six years maybe seven and we didn’t have problems at the five year mark. The one thing that has made a difference is honesty, being open with each other. If a problem came up with a player I, as the DM and representing the group as a whole, would take that player aside as address their problems and help them work through it or ask if they would change. If the problem continued we would ask the player to leave. Sometimes cutting off a player, even a friend, is best for the group as a whole. We also know when we were getting tried of the game and often take a month or so off and during that time we'd do other thing as a group. Like paintball, camping, Ren Faire, WarHammer, CCGs and the like. Also when we RP, we don’t just play D&D, We play a host of other games as well. Personally I think the problem is the Fighter in you group. I don't think putting his character in the lime light will do nothing more then make him more difficult to deal with It might even make the others players upset since they may think your giving him special treatment cause he a good friend. It could be that he doesn’t have enough do, I mean you have 4 fighters, 1 spell flinger, 1 specialist and of the 4 fighters he’s the run of the mill, nothing special about me, sword swinger. Maybe you can suggest a different class. He likes to kill stuff, well at higher levels no one kills more then a Wizard. He might enjoy being something unique from the rest of the party. Despite my suggestion above I also think a big problem is, that he IS, your friend, and as such thinks that you won’t kick him out. So he takes advantage of you. If he were such a good friend he wouldn't be interrupting you, acting like a pain, and interfering with the player’s and your enjoyment of the game. You'll need to tell him what the problems are, ask what you can do to help bring his interest back into the game, make some suggestions, but inform him that if the problems continue you'll have to ask him to leave. If he is a "friend" he'll step up and admit it he being a pain, work with you help bring him back into the game, he might leaving the group willingly. If he denies it, well.. I hope this helps.
Shifting Master 03-26-04, 03:09 PM	Okay, a couple of problems are solved, and we have a new PC: Dwarven Defender: This PC is new to D&D, for the most part. Our first session with him is in about a week, and he should work out fine. I have asked the sorcerer if the samurai still wants to play, and the sorcerer said "No." So that problem is solved. Unfortunately, the fighter is still here. I don't even think that he thinks that he is doing anything wrong. I believe that he's in D&D for the social part, not the playing part, and would just as likely play GTA or poker as D&D. However, he still enjoys D&D a lot, and I think that there is probably a better way to fix him up than to kick him out. So, what do you think?
Lord Crimson 03-26-04, 03:31 PM	Despite my general urge to tell people on these boards to just tell players to f**k off, it really should be reserved as a last choice. Your best bet would be to talk to your friend and ask him to tone it down a little. My group has one player who's there primarily for the social stuff too and he's an old friend of mine. I talked to him, told him we need to keep disruptions to a minimum. It's one thing to make a joke or two, it's quite another to think you're on stage at the Improv or lecturing in a class on the History of Western Warfare (his personal favorite distraction). Guess what? It took a couple of times, even a few conversations. But he's toned down while we play. Now, we do the socializing thing more before and after the game instead. Give it a try. Remember that he's your friend and that he's just trying to have a good time too. Just let him know that the way he's doing it is interfering with the fun of you and others. Give him options, if he needs them (let him create a new character if he's bored, let him create more storyline behind his PC, let him leave the group if he doesn't want to play... etc.)
Steelwill 03-28-04, 09:38 PM	Originally posted by Shifting Master Okay, a couple of problems are solved, and we have a new PC: Dwarven Defender: This PC is new to D&D, for the most part. Our first session with him is in about a week, and he should work out fine. I have asked the sorcerer if the samurai still wants to play, and the sorcerer said "No." So that problem is solved. Unfortunately, the fighter is still here. I don't even think that he thinks that he is doing anything wrong. I believe that he's in D&D for the social part, not the playing part, and would just as likely play GTA or poker as D&D. However, he still enjoys D&D a lot, and I think that there is probably a better way to fix him up than to kick him out. So, what do you think? Glad to hear some of the issues have been resolved, as for my response to the last question concerning your friend, the Fighter; I definitely recommend talking to him about focusing more on the game and less on joking around. Delivery of such a talk can be the key to it, be clear in your feelings but always remain diplomatic, and detail for him what it is you would like to see happen in the best possible scenario, then find out from him how he feels about it, and what his expectations of the ideal gaming session is. Lastly, come to an agreement on it. The alternative is to wait around and hope it gets better by itself. Otherwise I personally don't see any other way to resolve the issue. He's your friend, you will have to trust your gut on how to handle him, but I highly recommend that you at least talk to him about where you are at with him and gaming. Good Luck, Shifting Master.
Chaser 03-29-04, 12:43 AM	Tell the fighter that you have always enjoyed gaming when he has his head in the game, and you feel like he's been a bit distracted lately. Then let him talk. If you present it as gaming is something you two *usually* do well together, as friends, he is bound to come around unless he has much bigger problems of which you are not completely aware. Don't get on him about his *always* doing this, or *always* doing that, you probably don't want to preach or rant. Glad the samurai part worked out okay.
NiGrJo 03-30-04, 04:19 AM	Im interested to know if the poster has expressed his issues to the fighter. As for the guy who is the best role player and the least interested, That's often the case. The person who has the easiest time doing it will lose interest as he watches the rest of the group struggle and lose their focus Yeah, man, I tore my hair out this year as I was hard pressed and could only put three guys, plus myself together for a campaign, and they constantly got off course with stupid little social encounters and two hour long rogue tactics which would, in the end, yield very little. It felt like they did it on purpose, mocking me for my resolve in the game. I've since given up on the pricks. I would take the guys who you want in your group and will commit aside, and say. "hey Im either gonna continue our campaign at a far less frequent pace. and start a whole new campaign without the other section, you guys game?" And reschedule. that would offer the other section the opportunity to show how much they really want to play, but also provide you with an immediate opportunity to get more serious play underway. But again, express you issues openly, man. Don't hide them!