Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cantankerous 11-19-05, 07:59 AM	Yep, I'm a glutton for punishment. I got this crazy idea for solving the Low Magic dilemma, that is, making a severely LOW magic campaign playable within the basic rule set. First, OBVIOUSLY, the DM will have to be very careful about balancing encounters with magic heavy creatures for this to work. A Ghoul is a much more fearsome thing in a campaign truely low in magic. Now, here we aren’t talking about magic being non-existant, but it is rare, rare, rare! The first way to accomplish this is to do away with Clerics. This is not to say that there can be no Priests, but Clerics, Druids and any PrC class devolving directly from them (like Hierarch) is gone. This makes it all but impossible to have the healing battery walking about. This does not remove religion from the game, it just makes it less mechanicly focal. Too, NPC spell casters should be REALLY rare. Most of the people in the game world should be NPC classed. PC classes by themselves should be hghly unusual. More so than the DMG makes them. Perhaps about half as prevalent. Also, this game world would have to be heavily humanocentric. The humanoid races would still be viable, simply under the same restrictions as everyone else. Elves though would need to be almost (if not in fact) legedary beings, not present in the game world. The same holds true for Gnomes. Halflings and Dwarves, also SEVERLY limited in what magic they are capable of, would be easier to insert. Mechanicly doing this would require the following: Bards would need to have curative spells removed from their list of available spells but could be compensated for this somewhat by being able to increase the natural healing rate of those whom they care for by a factor of four per Cure level lost (ie: if they would normally be able to have Cure Light Wounds on their list it’s a x4 multiplier, if they were able to normally cast Cure Critical Wounds the muliplier would be x16 and if they were able to have Cure Moderate Wounds Mass they would have a x8 multiplier that could be used on many people simultaneously) if they can use their songs in the process. Of course this requires them to have Heal and that Skill is added to their skills list. This would stack with all other non-magical healing techniques and methods. The Paladin and Ranger lists stay as they are and the super natural Curative powers they possess make them doubly attractive as classes, even though the casting times on these spells are now usually minutes long, and are between battle plot devices. Paladins especially are very often Priests, or were Priests and their devout prayers are answered... by something. Rangers on the other hand are seen as masters of “natural healing”. Potions are now possible for up to 4th level spells. However to be able to make potions with fourth level spell effects in them requires 6 times as long as it otherwise would and it takes three times as long to brew a single potion of 1st through 3rd level of spell. Potions here aren’t a really rare item, but they are unusual and very costly. ** Note that Bards do not have any healing spells. Their song based ability to speed the healing process is definately magical, but it is not spell based.** There are many more healing poultices and ointments and the like though that increase the natural healing rate, dull pain and the like. I’ll detail those seperately. The thing here is that the DM and the Players will have to adjust accordingly. Without healing magics there will be no more long dungeon crawls possible. Nor is it possible to throw encounter after encounter after encounter at the PCs. They will have to be extremely careful of themselves. Also, only Wizards (and Bards or Sorcerers with the necessary Feat to MAKE spell scrolls) can even USE spell scrolls now. Also the making of them takes triple the time given in the DMG. In fact making any permenant magical items takes triple the time. But, since we don’t want the game to loose that heroic flare, the PCs have to have something extra. They do. For whatever reason you like for your game, the PCs are a rare bunch. They share a certain “uncanny luck” ability that usually wouldn’t be seen except by people who are really put in harms way. Basicly, a number of times per day dependant on their level, they can have been less wounded than it at first appeared. What looked like a terrible head wound was actually a shallow cut that bled alot. The axe that hit them made a messy looking wound, but missed severing any muscles or breaking the bone. The explosion just tossed them around a bit, it didn’t catch them full or whatever. The idea is that once per day per four full levels they have, plus once per day as a basis, the PC can roll a number of dice they would normally have from whatever class(es) they have, plus any Con modifiers as normal, and ADD this to their current hit points, but never to exceed their normal hit point maximum. So, a fifth level Barbarian with a Con*16 would be able to roll 5d12+15, as often as twice per day, and add this to his hit points. A seventh level Wizard with a Con*10 would simply roll 7d4 and so forth. To provide some balance this somewhat it must be possible (although rare and precious) to make weapons and armor of above Masterwork Quality. I’m going to try this by allowing the combining of metals with “supernal qualities” in the same sword or armor or whatever. In later posts I’ll go in to the way I’ve worked around it and just what I mean by combining the metals. Of course this just scratches the surface, but it looks like it might be workable to me. Any constructive (even if, or especially if you see a big idiotic mistake I've made in general) feedback will be appreciated. Isshia
theldran 11-19-05, 10:42 AM	cantankerous -- i have recovered from my initial shock, and believe that i can help with a bit of advice . . . . DO NOT keep clerics from being a playable class. DO NOT make bards rest-healers. DO NOT allow healing spells of any sort in your campaign. DO NOT expunge healing magic from your campaign only to introduce "healing luck". the simplest solution is often the best. simply disallow healing spells. wow, i'm really tired (36+ hours running with only 2 hours of sleep), but i think that might be clear enough to understand. i hope it helps.
astute1 11-19-05, 10:57 AM	I'm playing in a low magic campaign right now. Our DM's rule is that no more than half your levels (rounded down) can be in a single spellcasting class. Thus, a 20th level character would be no more than 10th caster level. Basically, spells become much rarer and worse for their level. Powerful spells like Raise Dead and Teleport doesn't even enter the game until 18th level. Also, all item creation feats are banned, so we can't make cure potions and healing wands as in a standard campaign. It's been interesting so far - you might try it. It's a far simpler rule change than the stuff you've suggested, and it has very broad effects upon the game.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-19-05, 11:14 AM	Yep, I'm a glutton for punishment. I got this crazy idea for solving the Low Magic dilemma, that is, making a severely LOW magic campaign playable within the basic rule set.I actually like the idea of a low magic campiagn. They seem more gritty and intriguing. I find that high level magic is kinda like turning cheat mode on. However, magic is such an integral part of the rules set that removing it or making it very rare is difficult to balance, and will make things a lot harder on the PCs. For the most part it is doable, one just has to be very, very careful about what monsters are put in the camapign. I would recommend using a lot of hand-made NPCs, and advanced lower CR monsters (like fiendish dire animals) with more HD. First, OBVIOUSLY, the DM will have to be very careful about balancing encounters with magic heavy creatures for this to work. A Ghoul is a much more fearsome thing in a campaign truely low in magic.Obviously. But that can not be stressed enough. Especailly things like oozes and rust monsters. Now, here we aren’t talking about magic being non-existant, but it is rare, rare, rare! The first way to accomplish this is to do away with Clerics. This is not to say that there can be no Priests, but Clerics, Druids and any PrC class devolving directly from them (like Hierarch) is gone. This makes it all but impossible to have the healing battery walking about. This does not remove religion from the game, it just makes it less mechanicly focal. Too, NPC spell casters should be REALLY rare.If you're going to do that, I would recommend doing away with wizards and sorcerers as well. What's the difference between a cleric bending reality with a miracle, and a wizard using wish? And hey the wizards may not be able to bring PCs back form the dead, (unless they use wish and/or limited wish to duplicate the effect) but time stop and meteor swarm and impressive in their own right. Most of the people in the game world should be NPC classed. PC classes by themselves should be hghly unusual. More so than the DMG makes them. Perhaps about half as prevalent. Also, this game world would have to be heavily humanocentric. Shouldn't it be this way anyway? If everyone in the campaign world are heros with PC class levels, then what's the point of the PCs? The humanoid races would still be viable, simply under the same restrictions as everyone else. Elves though would need to be almost (if not in fact) legedary beings, not present in the game world. The same holds true for Gnomes. Halflings and Dwarves, also SEVERLY limited in what magic they are capable of, would be easier to insert.Why? :confused: For exampe with elves, just change their favoured class to ranger, and adjust their flavour. On another note, if there are no elves, then where did the half elves come from? Bards would need to have curative spells removed from their list of available spells but could be compensated for this somewhat by being able to increase the natural healing rate of those whom they care for by a factor of four per Cure level lost (ie: if they would normally be able to have Cure Light Wounds on their list it’s a x4 multiplier, if they were able to normally cast Cure Critical Wounds the muliplier would be x16 and if they were able to have Cure Moderate Wounds Mass they would have a x8 multiplier that could be used on many people simultaneously) if they can use their songs in the process. Of course this requires them to have Heal and that Skill is added to their skills list. This would stack with all other non-magical healing techniques and methods. This just seems overly complicated, and clunky. I would leave the curative spells on the bard's list alone. The class needs something to make it attractive. Well, something that most players will notice. :P The Paladin and Ranger lists stay as they are and the super natural Curative powers they possess make them doubly attractive as classes, even though the casting times on these spells are now usually minutes long, and are between battle plot devices. Paladins especially are very often Priests, or were Priests and their devout prayers are answered... by something. Rangers on the other hand are seen as masters of “natural healing”. Like they weren't attractive as it was before? Without the pure casters the hybrids will be the most power in the game. Which is ok. Actually I would say that that is kinda what we are looking for. Although I see adepts as more of the priests. I just can't see father O'Reilly mounting his horse and charging into battle. Also not all gods are LG. Or even good for that matter. It makes no sense that all their priests would be LG. Potions are now possible for up to 4th level spells. However to be able to make potions with fourth level spell effects in them requires 6 times as long as it otherwise would and it takes three times as long to brew a single potion of 1st through 3rd level of spell. Potions here aren’t a really rare item, but they are unusual and very costly. ** Note that Bards do not have any healing spells. Their song based ability to speed the healing process is definately magical, but it is not spell based.** I would just get rid of potions altogether. Actually, I would toast all single use or charge dependant items. (Scrolls, potions, wands and staffs.) They just seem to be the icons of higher magic. In a low magic world the use of such a thing would incredibly wasteful. They are almost irreplaceable, as almost no one will be able to craft them. There are many more healing poultices and ointments and the like though that increase the natural healing rate, dull pain and the like. I’ll detail those seperately. The thing here is that the DM and the Players will have to adjust accordingly. Without healing magics there will be no more long dungeon crawls possible. Nor is it possible to throw encounter after encounter after encounter at the PCs. They will have to be extremely careful of themselves. Rare herbs ands plants and the like. Makes sense. Also, only Wizards (and Bards or Sorcerers with the necessary Feat to MAKE spell scrolls) can even USE spell scrolls now. Also the making of them takes triple the time given in the DMG. In fact making any permenant magical items takes triple the time. I would have no sorcerers or wizards, and no scrolls to use, thus this would be a moot point. However I do agree that magical items would very rare. Technically speaking, a ranger or paladin could take the craft feats, but they wouldn't becuase there is so much more they need to make them effective in combat. More now than ever that I just don't see them burning a feat on Craft X. Maybe Arms and Armour. Maybe. Bards with the craft feats would be more practical. Depending on the source material you allow they may be taking other feats to boost their music. If this were core only, then the craft feats would be a vey strong chioce for them. If not, then the feats are wieghed against things like Extra Music and the like. You'd still provide enough in between adventures for PCs with the craft feats to actually craft something. And tripling the time would not make much of a difference, vis: Player: "I take one week to craft this item." Dm: "Ok what does everyone else do?" Player: "I take three weaks to craft this item." DM: "Ok, what does everyone else do?" The time it takes to craft an item makes little difference. Either they have the time to do it, or they do not. If you do not allow at least some time to actually craft stuff, then you might as well just ban the feats flat out. If you have a player who has them, and you do not allow them to use it, then that is just plain being an arse. But, since we don’t want the game to loose that heroic flare, the PCs have to have something extra. They do. For whatever reason you like for your game, the PCs are a rare bunch. They share a certain “uncanny luck” ability that usually wouldn’t be seen except by people who are really put in harms way. Basicly, a number of times per day dependant on their level, they can have been less wounded than it at first appeared. What looked like a terrible head wound was actually a shallow cut that bled alot. The axe that hit them made a messy looking wound, but missed severing any muscles or breaking the bone. The explosion just tossed them around a bit, it didn’t catch them full or whatever. The idea is that once per day per four full levels they have, plus once per day as a basis, the PC can roll a number of dice they would normally have from whatever class(es) they have, plus any Con modifiers as normal, and ADD this to their current hit points, but never to exceed their normal hit point maximum. So, a fifth level Barbarian with a Con*16 would be able to roll 5d12+15, as often as twice per day, and add this to his hit points. A seventh level Wizard with a Con*10 would simply roll 7d4 and so forth. This is overly complicated and messy, and my DM's "overpowered option" sense is tingling about it... Maybe a little too strong methinks. It almost seems to read like PCs now have something similar to heal as a spell like ability usable character level/2 times per day. I recommend using the action point system form Ebberon. It is elegant and extremely useful, while not being over-powered. For the most part you seem to have a hate-on for magic healing. Why? I know it can bend and even break disbelief, especially in a low magic campaign, but so can arcane magic, which you have largely ignored. I can not understand nor find a reason for this. Magic is magic. If your gonna lower it in the world, then do it. But not half of it. If you do not like divine casters, then say so and give reasons for it. But cutting out divine magic does not lower magic levels -- it just makes wizards more powerful.
UltimateReality 11-19-05, 11:19 AM	Wow. That's...complicated, Cantankerous. I second the suggestions of astute1 and theldran. You could also just ban all spells above 6th level and make some sort of 20 level progression for the full casters, but astute1's idea is way, way easier. You could broaden it to "no more than half your levels are spellcasting classes, period" instead of "any single class" if you want to really get gritty. Less is more, and all that. ;)
Gwenfloor 11-19-05, 11:34 AM	Ever read Monte Cook's Iron Heroes? It is a Low-Magic Campaign Setting that has alternate Core Classes and Feats in order to make PCs a force to be reckoned with, but without any magic whatsoever. www.montecook.com is the website. ~Gwenfloor
Cantankerous 11-19-05, 12:21 PM	Hi all, To hit a couple of the high lights: I like the idea that Astute's DM is using... but it just wouldn't work for what I have in mind. I'm not trying to eliminate Wizards (or Sorcerers) at all, as others have suggested or to nerf them, or to force them to broaden their scope. Especially in the case of Wizards I see it as not desirable. I LIKE Wizards who have a Str*8 and who are the absent minded professors of their genre. I think they're iconic in the genre, FAR more so than Clerics (as Healing Batteries) are. The only way I could see most Players wanting to play a Sorcerer or Wizard then (except as secondary spell casters) would be one level of that Class then one level of Expert. It's not terrible, but it's also not really focused. Too, it would be too limiting for my NPCs baddies. I never make a rule that doesn't apply evenly to both PCs and NPCs alike. I don't want my EL*4 party seeing a Sorcerer whipping out a fireball and watch my Players have heart seizure meta thinking that the guy must be atleast 11th level. Nor do I want to have to wait until they are EL*7 to whip out said Sorcerer The reason I'm taking out (or more precisely, thinking of maybe taking out, as all this is simply brainstorming at this point) the Healing Batteries is what it makes the game by itself. That really IS the single feature about D&D that I have never liked, and like less now (in 3.x editions) than I did before. IT more than anything else is the video-game feature that I realize that I've always been really striving to get rid of. Other than books written for the various D&D settings, you simply don't see healing spells really anywhere in fantasy literature. It's really they, not magic by itself, that is the problem. At the same time, as the title suggests, this isn't supposed to be a No Magic campaign, just a LOW Magic campaign. If you eliminate Wizards and Sorcerers as well as Clerics and Druids basicly you have a No Magic campaign. But likewise, simply taking Healing spells out of the game makes the Cleric and Druid (especially the Cleric) strange little non-classes, IMO. The Cleric is built around the idea of healing by channeled Divine Magic. Taking that away from them so unbalances the class as to make it non-sensical. It makes them second rate fighters able to magicly buff and having to kiss some divine posterior to get it done. BUT... you don't just heave out healing magic either, as IT would only make sense in any setting where magic existed at all. I just want to nerf the living snot out of it and produce a world where everyone has to rely more heavily on thinking, on tactics, on the now BIG possibility of running away instead of simply shouting for the Healing Battery to come and do the only thing that it seems that most people see them as useful for any way. I did forget to mention, no items with healing spells other than Staves and Rings. This keeps such items even more rare as you have to be 12th level to take either Feat. TPK, you did something damned constructive here with the comment about the DMs "overpowered option" sense tingling. Thinking more deeply about it, I've got to agree. I think I might go with once per day instead of twice and it removes your Hit Die in damage, not Hit Die+Con bonus. The thought here is not that this is actually healing first off. It's more: Elandril: "Check Micah, he was looking pretty bad." Micah: "Never mind, it was alot worse than it looked. It just bled alot." THAT was what I meant by "uncanny luck". Even pre 3rd edition I had "NPC classes" and segregated my game world pretty heavily. I did this because I've never liked everyone but the enemies and the PCs being 0 level goons. It never sat well with me, so in 83 I first created my own Peasant, Craftsmen, Scholar and Noble classes. When I first saw 3E I thought someone had been goign through my notes. ;) In my present campaign I use the mix suggested in the DMG for character classes as opposed to NPC classes in the population. In the up coming game I intended for it to be alot more restrictive than that. Half or less as many Classed person per 1000 population as is existant right now in the DMGs version of things. Oh, and TPK, I already did mean for the Adept to fill the Priestly void in large part. Also, a Hell of alot of "Priests" would have no magical ability whasoever. This gives the Adept a good bit of umph too that it always lacked, which I also see as a nice bonus. Now if I could only find some way to make the poor wretched Commoner more attractive. ;) Isshia
avatar6v7 11-19-05, 12:21 PM	just think about how things would happen realistically in a low-magic world, wizards would be very rare, because there arnt many people around to teach magic, sorcerers would also be extremly rare because their parents would be even more scared than usual because they know next to nothing of magic, and there would be nobody willing to help them. clerics and druids would be only slightly less rare, with paladins, bards and rangers slighly more common due to their other niechs. The arcane spellcasters might deal primarily with the outer planes as they are in comparison magic rich, the clerics would be sufficently rare that if any atain high level theres a good chance they become the proxy of their deity, rangers and paladins would be like supernatural hunters, and mystical knights. In a low magic world dont punish your heroes, make it so that evreaything has more meaning, magic items would be like artifacts, their powers would truly be powers. In the normal game a quest to find a wizard would be hum-drum but in the low magic world its a quest to find one of the last practioners of arcane magic, possesing knowlage nobody else does. You shouldnt change anything regarding starting PC's, just the world they live in and their roles within it.
FriendoftheDork 11-19-05, 01:45 PM	Isshia you know I'm also running a low-magic campaign. I've seen your suggestion and I must say I'm not impressed. Although I agree that a cleric should not be a healing battery, divine magic should be as wondrous as arcane. If NPC clerics are as rare as NPC sorcerers and wizards, and not selling their services in every temple in every little village as it is now, it will make clerics seen as holy prophets with god-given power, like ancient priests and biblical prophets were. But when clerics become combat medics and little else you do break the feel of the game. Since my players knew this in my first session last sunday, they were all awed by the party cleric's powers, as they were displayed in the proper way. I'd leave bards as they are, but make them as rare as spellcasters. Just as 99% of the church of (insert god) are experts, so are 99% of entertainers experts or rogues. Those who work magic with their music should be rare indeed (think Sauron and Gilthoniel from the Silmarillion.) Same with druids, of course. Rangers... I'm thinking of just using a magic-less variant from UA instead, as I can't see why they should have magic. Aragorn had magic only because he had the blood of kings, not because he was a ranger. One of the ways I make healing magic less needed in D&D is to use the VP/WP system from unearthed arcana. Since vitality damage is common, and quickly refreshed healing is not necessary. When PCs do get seriously hurt by Wound damage however, healing will seem like miracles compared to the slow natural healing, but the low level ones will not be that spectacular. A cure light wounds only heals 1d8 vitality (fatigue, scratches etc.) and 1 WP per level. The only problem I have with this is that it makes low level NPCs too tough. A 1st level goblin warrior will have to take 11-12 damage before he finally drops, while he would usually only need about 5 damage to do so ordinarily. I'm considering just giving them their HD in wound points to begin with and then increase it with HD rolled until WP=Constitution score. Thus a commoner with 11 con and 1/2 HD would start with 1-4 WP (average 2), and gain 1d4 more per level until reaching 11 or constitution is increased. Note that only PCs and major NPCs and monsters gain vitality, and that a critical hit auto-kills those without vitality or deals base weapon damage (not multiplied) directly to wound points. Well sorry about harsh critique, I like it that you attempt to improve a game style, but what do you think of my suggestions? Would it work in YOUR group?
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-19-05, 09:20 PM	If I'd known this was the orginal aim, I would have responded differently... I'm not trying to eliminate Wizards (or Sorcerers) at all, as others have suggested or to nerf them, or to force them to broaden their scope. Especially in the case of Wizards I see it as not desirable. I LIKE Wizards who have a Str*8 and who are the absent minded professors of their genre. I think they're iconic in the genre, FAR more so than Clerics (as Healing Batteries) are. Then it isn't really low magic now, is it? It is low divine magic. And with wizards and sorcerers the only 9th level casters, of course you'll see more of them. Why not? With the versatility on the arcane list there really isn't much a wizard can't do. Except heal. But that seems to be the point of this little exercise, isn't it? You don't like healing, because it means the players don't have to run from things. They have some staying power, and if the monster does damage to them they aren't :censored:ered. Why is that a bad thing? It just means the PCs stay alive longer. I fail to see how dying all the time is fun. The only way I could see most Players wanting to play a Sorcerer or Wizard then (except as secondary spell casters) would be one level of that Class then one level of Expert. It's not terrible, but it's also not really focused. Too, it would be too limiting for my NPCs baddies. I never make a rule that doesn't apply evenly to both PCs and NPCs alike. I don't want my EL*4 party seeing a Sorcerer whipping out a fireball and watch my Players have heart seizure meta thinking that the guy must be atleast 11th level. Nor do I want to have to wait until they are EL*7 to whip out said Sorcerer I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, and assume you were drunk when you wrote this. Why the hell wouldn't your players play a wizard or sorcerer, they are now the ONLY pure casters in the game! Just the what funk are they secondary to? Is low magic not fun for you if it means you have to ditch your arcane casters? Surely you can find away to challenge them without magic? Or do you just not want them healing after your NPC baddy blasts them a new :censored:hole? The reason I'm taking out (or more precisely, thinking of maybe taking out, as all this is simply brainstorming at this point) the Healing Batteries is what it makes the game by itself. That really IS the single feature about D&D that I have never liked, and like less now (in 3.x editions) than I did before. IT more than anything else is the video-game feature that I realize that I've always been really striving to get rid of. Other than books written for the various D&D settings, you simply don't see healing spells really anywhere in fantasy literature. It's really they, not magic by itself, that is the problem.Right, and the sudden power increases gained from leveling don't seem unrealistic at all. What do you mean you've never read of healing magic in fantasy literature? It is just as common as other magics. At the same time, as the title suggests, this isn't supposed to be a No Magic campaign, just a LOW Magic campaign. If you eliminate Wizards and Sorcerers as well as Clerics and Druids basicly you have a No Magic campaign. But likewise, simply taking Healing spells out of the game makes the Cleric and Druid (especially the Cleric) strange little non-classes, IMO. The Cleric is built around the idea of healing by channeled Divine Magic. Taking that away from them so unbalances the class as to make it non-sensical. It makes them second rate fighters able to magicly buff and having to kiss some divine posterior to get it done.Right, becuase every fighter I'v ever played can wildshape and drop flame strike or miracle... This bit is nothing more then a poorly justified cursade against healing magic. To be honest, it also smells of a DM versus player mentality -- not something I'd expect from you. :confused: BUT... you don't just heave out healing magic either, as IT would only make sense in any setting where magic existed at all. I just want to nerf the living snot out of it and produce a world where everyone has to rely more heavily on thinking, on tactics, on the now BIG possibility of running away instead of simply shouting for the Healing Battery to come and do the only thing that it seems that most people see them as useful for any way.I thought the healing was the thing that bothered you. I never did see the point of nerfing something until it was unplayable. Why not just save yourself the trouble and ban it outright? Or do you take joy in seeing your players miserable? Why just pull the legs off a spider? Be kind and kill the damn thing in one shot, man. Further, just because "most" people see clerics as only useful for healing batteries doesn't mean your players will. And if they are, ***** at your players and prove them wrong by example, instead of contorting the rules into this strange pretzel to prove your point. I did forget to mention, no items with healing spells other than Staves and Rings. This keeps such items even more rare as you have to be 12th level to take either Feat. Again, what's the point, just ban them outright? What 12th level character can realistically afford a staff? TPK, you did something damned constructive here with the comment about the DMs "overpowered option" sense tingling. Thinking more deeply about it, I've got to agree. I think I might go with once per day instead of twice and it removes your Hit Die in damage, not Hit Die+Con bonus. Thank you. I would just remove it entirely. I still say it is sending mixed messages. "I hate healing, it is unrealistic. But once per day everyone can mysteriously heal their HD..." Only a fool wouldn't save that until they were almost dead. The thought here is not that this is actually healing first off. It's more: Elandril: "Check Micah, he was looking pretty bad." Micah: "Never mind, it was alot worse than it looked. It just bled alot." THAT was what I meant by "uncanny luck".I'm sorry but this just is not coming off that way. At best this is coming off as one of those scenes in the movies when the hero gets p0wnzred and hit with everything. Everyone thinks he's down, and then the heroic music starts as he gets back up. Even pre 3rd edition I had "NPC classes" and segregated my game world pretty heavily. I did this because I've never liked everyone but the enemies and the PCs being 0 level goons. It never sat well with me, so in 83 I first created my own Peasant, Craftsmen, Scholar and Noble classes. When I first saw 3E I thought someone had been goign through my notes. ;) In my present campaign I use the mix suggested in the DMG for character classes as opposed to NPC classes in the population. In the up coming game I intended for it to be alot more restrictive than that. Half or less as many Classed person per 1000 population as is existant right now in the DMGs version of things. Please tell me you aren't saying that you want your PCs to take levels of NPC classes. They are called NPC classes for a reason. If you mean you want more NPC goons to take NPC classes...um...you're the DM, you can make it happen? Why is it an issue? This paragraph is kind of confusing.
Cantankerous 11-20-05, 08:32 AM	Guys, I absolutely don't understand this at all. If the whole world plays by the same rules, as I've said again and again it ALWAYS does in my games, and the PCs are the ones who have the greatest advantage, are the most magic rich folk around, being the Character classed folk who actually can make their own magic, how in the name of merde does that come off as even vaguely DM vs Player mentality? I simply don't see it. It's not as if the Players don't have healing magic but everybody else does. NO one has as much of it as the Players very likely, except for the BBEG. Not any and all enemies as a whole, just the Big Baddie at the end of each (usually three to five level long) story within the campaign. See, this is one of the reasons why I harp so hard on DMing the NPCs as having a personality. THEY run away more often too when there is a greater chance for death. The whole thing becomes less static and unreasonable. People, ALL people, have to take into account how they are doing...not simply forge on, video game like, and act as though it simply doesn't matter whether they live or die. In what way does that single out the PCs for rough treatment? I'm utterly dumb founded. TPK; in my games where PCs have healing magic and "staying power" as you put it, so do my monsters. Of course! How the hell else can you do this without it becoming Monty Haul time? And for the love of God, why would you think the Players don't want this? The main REASON that I ma contemplating this is BECAUSE of compalints by the Players that insta-heal spells make the whole damned thing cheap and even more desperately artificial feeling than the hit point system does. Nor have I in any manner tried to hide, since the very first post, the first paragraph of the first post, that this entire exercise was aimed at getting rid primarily of the healing magic as IT and not other types of magic is the Bane of a Low Magic campaign. Most Healing magic in D&D is too loow level and too bloody easy to access for my tastes. It always has been. That IS the video game mode I don't like. Nor is this the first time I've said that. Having a Handy Haversack is a bit campy, but being near death and fine the next second is much, MUCH more campy and most definately NOT a part of most fantasy literature. Vance (who's system of magic approach is almost entirely what D&D is modled after) himself, as well as Lynn Abbey, Poul Anderson, Piers Anthony, Robert Aspirin, Ben Bova, Marian Zimmer Bradley, Terry Brooks, Lin Carter, C.J. Cherryh, Bernard Cornwell... Hell I'm not even out of the A-C's I can think of yet and I haven't run across one of these mega authors of Fantasy who writes about tons of instant healing magics. Show me a list a half so long with a fifth the luminary names who does do it man. I've never seen it outside of D&D stories, and seldom then. Why? Because of all the ways in which magic can interact with a story, the most pronounced way that it can interact destructively with the story is with tons of healing magic. PCs do not stay alive longer because of Healing magic. They stay alive longer because of smart tactics. In a game where there is healing magic, it's a good tactic to use, but it's only ONE of many and my Players, at the least, are not so dim bulbed as to rely on any one tactic to the exclusion of others. FotD, with us the problem isn't flavor. Divine Magic IS definately seen as being the equal qualitatively of Arcane magic, which it should be. The problem for me, really for us, as some of my Players have complained about how healing spells make everything seem cheap too, that the Cleric class is almost entirely based on it's healing ability, to the point that other people here are constnatly arguing that that's the Clerics JOB in combat situations. What it comes down to isn't flavor, it IS that these people are right! The way the game sits, it IS their JOB in combat; to be video game reset counters. FotD, I appreciate the input. We've tried the Wound Point systm before and after two sessions, at the beginning of this campaign actually, the Players voted to throw it out. I liked it more than they did, although it does have as many or more flaws than the regular Hit point system, IMO, just different ones. I'm going to print out this thread in it's entirety and hand it to them tonight and yak about it and see what comes up. I'll let you know. Isshia
Burgundy Lotus 11-20-05, 09:06 AM	I've always toyed with the ideas of natural healing that occurs every so often like everyone heals X hps every 4 or 6 hours, or to triple overnight and bed rest healing. The one I like the most is to use the Heal skill in some way, though I haven't come to a satisfying formula for that yet.
FriendoftheDork 11-20-05, 09:28 AM	FotD, with us the problem isn't flavor. Divine Magic IS definately seen as being the equal qualitatively of Arcane magic, which it should be. The problem for me, really for us, as some of my Players have complained about how healing spells make everything seem cheap too, that the Cleric class is almost entirely based on it's healing ability, to the point that other people here are constnatly arguing that that's the Clerics JOB in combat situations. What it comes down to isn't flavor, it IS that these people are right! The way the game sits, it IS their JOB in combat; to be video game reset counters. Well it does depend on the party and player expectation. I used to play in a game world (Wheel of Time) where healing was something only a certain group of people (Aes Sedai) could do, and it was neither speedy nor instant recovery, it converted damage to subdual damage. It was almost used exclusively to save people's lives, not just somthing to quaff down in combat to be able to fight longer. And no one dared imply that it was the Aes Sedai's JOB to heal them! FotD, I appreciate the input. We've tried the Wound Point system before and after two sessions, at the beginning of this campaign actually, the Players voted to throw it out. I liked it more than they did, although it does have as many or more flaws than the regular Hit point system, IMO, just different ones. Isshia Well wp carries a different flavor and makes high level PCs and NPCs both vulberable to unkucky critical hits. Is that your players reason for disliking it? The main advantage in a low-healing game is of course that healing simply is not necessary, at least not in combat. So if you're going to make healing that scarce WP is a good way to balance it out. Protracted periods of natural healing that putts off the adventure is boring and ruins suspense IMO.
Cantankerous 11-20-05, 09:32 AM	I've always toyed with the ideas of natural healing that occurs every so often like everyone heals X hps every 4 or 6 hours, or to triple overnight and bed rest healing. The one I like the most is to use the Heal skill in some way, though I haven't come to a satisfying formula for that yet. That's one of the reasons I'm toying around with this. Simply, instead of a formula for healing that would work for the PCs without basicly making anyone with less than a dozen hit points able to heal from deaths door to nearly perfect health in a single night, I'm considering trying to find a way around HAVING to have insta healing or mega quick healing as an intregal part of the whole in game scene. Certainly it's got flaws, and yes, certainly it's cinematic, but it seems less silly than this scene: Eedrich: "He's all but dead sir. By the time we drove the wolf off of him it was almost too late. Sir Amethus: *searches around in his saddle bag, pulls out a hardened clay bottle* "Give him this to drink." **Suddenly, as the liquid flowed down young Micah's throat, the terrible wounds the wolf had inflicted on him healed, all in an instant, and a moment later he was back on his feet smiling, but the next moment he was brushing the rich brocade of his robes and grimacing at the copious amounts of blood that fouled them. Shacking his head sadly he approached the mounted warrior, his rings and necklace glinting with gold and costly jewels. It would cost hundreds of gold pieces to replace the robes.** Micah: *after approaching the still seated Knight* "How can I repay you good sir Knight?" Sir Amethus: "Think nothing of it Master Micah. They had a dozen of those potions in the town Apothecary, just a 50 gold each. Do an old man a favor and carry a few on you, aye? If you're quick enough you can drink one down WHILE the wolf's chewing on you." Now, which of that scene, or this scene: Elandril: "Check Micah, he was looking pretty bad." Micah: "Never mind, it was alot worse than it looked. It just bled alot." seems the most desperately contrived and unreasonable? Isshia
Burgundy Lotus 11-20-05, 09:42 AM	That's one of the reasons I'm toying around with this. Simply, instead of a formula for healing that would work for the PCs without basicly making anyone with less than a dozen hit points able to heal from deaths door to nearly perfect health in a single night, I'm considering trying to find a way around HAVING to have insta healing or mega quick healing as an intregal part of the whole in game scene. Certainly it's got flaws, and yes, certainly it's cinematic, but it seems less silly than this scene: Now, which of that scene, or this scene: seems the most desperately contrived and unreasonable? Isshia The X in my post was to indicate a variable that would be based on level. Obviously no one will heal fully in one shot. a 10-25% increase every 6 hours would be fairly realistic, more so then potions IMHO and I don't really have a problem with them so much as their availability.
Cantankerous 11-20-05, 10:22 AM	Hey y'all. FotD, Actually, the players were all level three when we scrapped it. It simply didn't have the flow and grace they were looking for. For us to scrap a part of the rule set, which we all realize is almost garaunteed to imbalance things (sometimes badly) in hidden ways as well as forthright ones, the replacement needs to be greatly quantitatively better. The Wound Point system just wasn't enough of an improvement to justify itself, for us anyway. Now Burgundy Lotus, that's one I hadn't considered before because of the problem with the percentages. If a Wizard*2 has 6 hp and takes 5 hp then heals 10% of that total is half a hit point. Now, if he's attacked the next day, does he have 1 or 2 HP? He certainly doesn't have 1.5 of them. The other problem is the percentages themselves. Even in an idea I once thought of trying, where the person naturally healed a percentage of their hit points equal to 1/2 x (Constitution) + modifiers Ie: 14 Con would be 7+2 or 9%, (thus making a higher con ever more additive). It still means that someone who has lost, as a percentage, 99% of their hit points, could heal back to full health in as little as 11 days with just a 14 Con. That seems way too fast. Yet, the problem IS as great with any part of the hit point system. It's a puzzler. White Wolf has a better natural healing system with their sliding scale. Basicly bruising and such miniscule damage could be healed in hours, but a punctured lung would take weeks to months. D&D just does support this. Please, don't think I'm arguing with you just to be arguing. I greatly appreciate your insights and want to discuss as many aspects of them as possible so that I can give them a better and more informed look. Isshia
pinky_si 11-20-05, 11:11 AM	Coming late to this debate, but here's my :twocents: One of the best Low-Magic setting I've seen is presented in Katherine Kerr's Deverry series of novels. Basically, no one but a fantastically few people have magical abilities, and those that do cannot simply whip out fireballs, but instead have to spend minutes/hours/days casting the rituals to invoke the powers involved. Kerr's work draws heavily on the "real" western magical tradition, with a lot made of astral projection and the planes of existence (ethereal, astral etc). Magic is viewed by the general populace of Deverry as miraculous (if divine in nature)and/or unclean and demonic (if arcane). Practitioners know that the magic itself is all from the same source, it is the intent with which it is used which creats the good and evil. When I was at school (many moons ago), a friend ran a Basic D&D (yes it was that long ago :) ) conversion based on Kerr's novels, which worked really well. We very quickly adapted to the idea that the setting was potentially more fatal, that there was no healing-battery available, and that magic was a whole lot less speedy, but a whole lot cooler when it happened. Therefore, my suggestions to you are 1) if you're going to "nerf" magical healing, do the same to a lot of the other high fantasy magical effects as well. 2) Instead, encourage your players to role-play magical healing in the way which you think it should be used. 3) Alternatively increase the casting time of healing spells to encourage players away from the "we get knocked down but we get up again" style of play. A casting time of 1hr/level per Cure spell should soon stop them pesky players getting better so quickly... 4) Ditch the D&D magic system altogether (as it is inherently High-Magic) and pick up one of the other bolt-on systems out there which better suits your style - even better create your own.
astute1 11-20-05, 11:23 AM	Food for thought: while 50gp for a healing potion is almost nothing for an adventurer to pay, it's a princely sum for just about anyone else. In essence, the economica of the situation dictate that healing exists merely for PCs and important NPCs - it's something that sets them apart from the common folk. Also, the "reserve point" system in Unearthed Arcana is very useful for low-magic style campaigns. Basically, you have a pool of "reserve points" equal to your starting hit points. When you are wounded, reserve points shift into HP at the rate of 1 per minute. It lets you heal up a bit between battles without a cleric around, and also preserves the benefit of having a high HP score, since it's practically useless in battle, and your HP serves to cap Reserve Points.
UltimateReality 11-20-05, 11:27 AM	The main REASON that I ma contemplating this is BECAUSE of compalints by the Players that insta-heal spells make the whole damned thing cheap and even more desperately artificial feeling than the hit point system does.So tell your players to not use the "cheap" rules they despise so much. If they don't treat clerics like healing batteries, and don't make their PC clerics healing batteries, then the problem is mostly solved. All you have to do is insure NPCs aren't healing batteries either. It's like me complaining to my fiance that every time I get behind the wheel, I speed. The solution is not for my fiance to never let me drive ever again. The solution is for me not to speed! (And maybe have him keep an eye on the spedometer and remind me when I'm getting close to the speed limit.) Edit: I really like pinky_si's ideas too...especially making the casting time hours instead of a standard action...
Cantankerous 11-20-05, 11:43 AM	Hi all, Astute, did you notice the way Micah was dressed? It was going to cost him hundreds to replace the robe. The point wasn't about the masses anyway. The point there was entirely about the difference in reasonability between scene one and scene two. EDIT: I liked that idea, but didn't try it yet. Still IT does seem less reasonable than the old "it looked alot worse than it was" answer. Not alot of difference, but I think, thanks to Pinky_si, I've got a better solution now. Pinky_si, thanks for the thoughts. !) The other effects are consistant with many well written effects in fantasy literature. Alot of great writers, from Aspirin to Howard to Tolkein to Zelazny all utilize the flashy effects, but none of them seem willing to make healing a second by second thing. I'm aiming for high cinemagraphic or literary descriptive magic. I think this will get me closer. I definately AM still open to ideas to change that though. It's what brainstorming is about. 2) They do, outside of combat, in combat though it's sort of hard to do deep role play of the majesty of healing magics. 4) Been there, done that, for almost three decades. My first attempt at doing it (making a new system) was back in 82 and MAY have been raided as the basis for something that came out the next year. But that's another story. Anyway, I like the game engine as a whole as well or better than most others and this one is actually still supported fully, so... and now: 3) This gave me an idea. Possibly keeping Healing Magic and the Cleric and Druid classes, as they stand, and also keeping casting time the same... but making the effect take longer. It still will only take one round to cast Cure Critical Wounds, but the time taken for the healing to occur is no longer instantaneous, but takes one hour per level of the Cure spell. In fact, I think I like THAT one hell of alot! I think I might even hype this idea to my Players. I'll still print the whole thread, but tis may be the answer I was looking for. It's simple, it's elegant, and it's lower stress. Thanks alot, really. Thank you! Isshia
Cantankerous 11-20-05, 11:46 AM	So tell your players to not use the "cheap" rules they despise so much. If they don't treat clerics like healing batteries, and don't make their PC clerics healing batteries, then the problem is mostly solved. All you have to do is insure NPCs aren't healing batteries either. It's like me complaining to my fiance that every time I get behind the wheel, I speed. The solution is not for my fiance to never let me drive ever again. The solution is for me not to speed! (And maybe have him keep an eye on the spedometer and remind me when I'm getting close to the speed limit.) Edit: I really like pinky_si's ideas too...especially making the casting time hours instead of a standard action... To quote the answer to Pinky_si: They do, outside of combat, in combat though it's sort of hard to do deep role play of the majesty of healing magics. Isshia
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-20-05, 12:09 PM	To quote the answer to Pinky_si: They do, outside of combat, in combat though it's sort of hard to do deep role play of the majesty of healing magics. Isshia So instead of trying to improve the way you quality of your role-play, you choose to mangle the rules? Are you honestly trying to tell me that you and your group have such problems with role-play that it is easier to change the rules than the way you play?
VirgilCaine 11-20-05, 03:43 PM	Use another system. Seriously. Look at Burning Wheel. Look at GURPS. Look at ANYTHING but D&D.
Talanall 11-20-05, 04:07 PM	This is a fascinating thread, and I've been thinking about it for a little while now--I didn't want to participate unless I was sure that I had something useful to contribute. I'm sorry for the length of the post; I tried to make it as concise as I could, and I hope you find something useful in it. I'll begin by agreeing with astute1, theldran, and others who have raised concerns about the effects of your ideas concerning clerics, cure spells, and healing. I think that the changes you have outlined may have effects on your game which you have not forseen, and that some of your solutions (especially the one having to do with bards and healing) are more than a little clunky. Let me begin with clerics, though. First, Cantankerous, I'd like to take the role of devil's advocate for the cleric. You've characterized them as "healing batteries." I think that this is an inaccurate description of the class. Perhaps you've spent time around players who insist on treating the cleric as nothing more than a walking cure spell; I can't really speak to your reasons for viewing clerics in this light. It's certainly true that under the core rules, clerics are especially good at pumping forth a lot of cure or inflict spells in an emergency. And it's also certainly true that clerics get access to more powerful healing spells than pretty much any other class. But a trip to the Character Optimization board isn't going to show you a real focus on clerics as healing batteries. It will show you ways for a cleric to make you wail and gnash your teeth through his or her use of the other spells available to the class. Here's my suggestion: leave the cleric in your game, but change these things: 1. Remove the cleric's access to cure spells entirely. 2. Change the cleric's spontaneous cure/inflict spells ability; instead of cure/inflict, allow the cleric to select one of his or her two domains, and cast that domain's spells spontaneously. By making these two changes, you retain the cleric as a champion of his or her religion's ideals (I say religion because you've indicated that a paladin's or ranger's powers come from "somewhere" but that it isn't necessarily a deity who grants them power). In this way, clerics become "divinely inspired miracle workers" rather than "healing batteries." The line between their magic and that of a sorcerer, wizard, or bard is admittedly blurred a little; a cleric of a god of fire, who has chosen the Fire domain and the ability to cast spontaneously from it, for example, won't be able to heal your wounds. But she can give a wizard a pretty good run for his money in the limited area of burning things and people to death, she can drive away the undead, and her other domain (Knowledge, maybe, if you want to emphasize the light-giving, constructive aspect of fire) makes her more than just another source of fire spells. Essentially, what I'm suggesting is to keep the cleric, and throw away the stuff that makes it possible to characterize the class with the description, "healing battery." If you feel that this unduly lowers the overall power level of the cleric class, you could even allow clerics to access a third domain. I don't think that's really necessary, though, if you remove cure spells across the board. You win because you don't have healing magic. Your players win because they can still play a cleric, and enjoy the roleplaying opportunities presented by the role of a spellcaster whose powers are viewed as a special divine gift intended to advance the cause of the faithful. This is what a cleric ought to be anyway, and it is what makes the class interesting. If you need to remove healing to make it possible for your players to enjoy that side of the cleric, then I'm all for it. I also want to emphasize that I agree with other posters who have expressed concern about your idea of leaving cure spells on the paladin/ranger lists. It seems inconsistent to me, especially in light of your decision to take them away from the bard and of your ruthless savaging of the cleric and druid. You might leave the paladin's lay on hands and remove disease abilities in place, though; this seems to play well with the ceremonies of the King's Touch in medieval England. Remember? Supposedly the king, if he is suitably pious, can cure scrofula by laying hands on the afflicted. I think it was King Edward who was supposed to have exhibited the capacity to perform that miracle, but the custom persisted into the 1650s. I'm getting a bit far afield, here, but a paladin's limited abilities to heal and cure disease aren't a bad thing. It's really just enough to save a few lives in dramatic fashion. The evil religions can use blackguards to mimic the paladin's healing powers, so that retains relative balance between good and evil if you don't mind the use of a single PrC. I'd also like to address your discounting of the druid from your game. What's your reasoning for that, anyway? You dismissed that class along with the cleric, but druids aren't nearly as good at healing as clerics are--they can't spontaneously cast cure spells, and they can only bring back the dead via reincarnate. Excise a druid's healing magic, and you still have plenty of other stuff for them to do, because they're better at "other stuff" to begin with. Similarly, bards are hardly a weak choice, even without cure spells. I've played several, and usually had a hard time choosing between cure spells and whatever other choices were available at each level. I'd just leave them alone. I suppose my overall point, so far, is that if your problem is healing magic per se, you can just take the path of least resistance and remove healing magic. If you are even-handed about it, you're much less likely to have balance problems, and what balance problems you still get can be resolved relatively easily by making a few very small adjustments, like my suggested compensation to the cleric class for the loss of spontaneous cure/inflict spells. I would also like to address the matter of NPC vs. PC classes. You've explained that you want PC classes to be rare and special, and that NPC spellcasters of any sort should also be very uncommon, and especially that you want powerful ones to be rare. If you use the DMG standards, they actually are rare--for example, wizards are roughly 0% to 1% of the population of a given settlement. If you want to make them even more scarce, though, you could replace the community modifier table from the DMG with this (the "default" level modifiers are in parenthesis): Thorp -3 (-3) Hamlet -2 (-3) Village -1 (-1) Small Town +0 (+0) Large Town +2 (+4) Small City +4 (+6) Large City +6 (+9) Metropolis +8 (+12) Using the default modifiers and the NPC generation scheme in the DMG (highest NPC wizard level = 1d4+modifier, rolled three times in a large city), an average large city of 25,000 people has 45 wizards ranging from level 11th to level 1st (.2% of the total population). The alternative modifiers I listed are used for Eberron, which is a lower-level game world, and they change the "large city" wizard population so that instead of a level range of 1st-11th, you get a range of 1st-8th (but the same numbers; change the modifier to +4 for an even lower-level game, and the numbers run as 21 wizards of levels 1st-6th, or .08% of the city population). Anything of a level higher than 8th, for an NPC wizard using the Eberron demographics, is truly exceptional. A 12th-level wizard is the most powerful you'll find practicing his arts openly, even in the greatest of cities, and anything more powerful is essentially a legendary villain or hero who can only be addressed by the PCs. Eberron also changes the default 1d4 used for wizard level to 1d3, but some of the cultures that are predisposed to wizardly studies use 1d4 or even 1d6. Manipulating the random side of the top-level NPC mechanic is probably the best way to approach cultural variation, I feel, because it gives one culture an edge without making it drastically different from other cultures. I'd suggest other measures that might help you achieve the effect you want, but I'd like to know your views on the Adept class before I add anything else to this discussion. The default rules treat 1st-level adepts as .5% of the population, with the addition of higher-level NPCs that are generated normally; a standard large city has 66 adepts of level 1st-12th (.3% of the population). There are several ways to make them rarer overall--the simplest is to treat them like a PC class, in which case they're as common as wizards, with similar level ranges. Adepts are also significantly less powerful, since their spell selection is much more limited, running only to 6th-level spells. Emphasizing their role in your game world may be a useful way for you to draw attention away from both wizards and clerics; Adepts can do some of both of these classes' jobs, leaving wizards and clerics free to occupy a role as champions of the faith, famed researchers and sages, and other such prestigious and adventure-worthy occupations. I'll close by adding that I'm citing DMG guidelines for this because they actually give us a way to model a "default" setting for how many people in a population belong to a given character class. It's useful to be able to say that the game assumes that 0-1% of the population has levels in the wizard class, since the system that gives us that information also gives us an idea of what is "normal" as far as level range goes. If you manipulate the level range (as exemplified by the comparison between Eberron and Core demographics, above), you also eventually manipulate the overall number of characters belonging to a class. I think it's almost always better to manipulate the whole system instead of one part of it, if you want to retain game balance. So I tried to approach the problem of NPC spellcasters from a systemic direction instead of eyeballing it. EDIT: And I wanted to add that I used Eberron as an exemplar because even though it's decidedly not low magic, it is still remarkable amongst campaign settings because it goes to considerable lengths to explain how a world full of magic and adventurers can exist and remain internally consistent. Unlike the Forgotten Realms, there are no 30th-level do-gooders. It's kind of refreshing, really--a level 12 wizard is the pinnacle of NPC achievement, unless you want to go hunting for an evil level 18 wizard who's busy hatching plots somewhere. You have to research your own extra spells, or raid ancient ruins to unearth those left behind by ancient archmagi. High-level magic is rare, and low-level magic is extremely common. For all these reasons, it's a good setting to examine in search of subtle, low-maintenance ways to lower the overall level of magic in a campaign.
hammer_hand 11-20-05, 06:05 PM	IMHO in a low magic world technology would be a lot more advanced as people could not just run along to the local cleric to grow their arm back, people could not just teleport/fly with the ease that they could in a regular magic campaign. In D&D magic fills a niche that can also be plugged by technology!
Cantankerous 11-24-05, 04:59 AM	As I rather expected, the vote was unanimous. The Players loved the idea as it fixes the single greatest short coming in D&D as we all saw it. Final solution. We left all the classes as is (so far) and simply changed the effect time on all healing spells (not the casting time) to one hour per level of the spell. This is still healing so fast that it would be possible to watch the wounds visibly knit, so it's still definately magical enough. I would like to again thank Pinky_si for the wonderful initial suggestion that prompted this variant of it. The only problem is that this does nerf the Cleric and Druid (especially those two, especially the Cleric of those two) to no small degree. I'm trying to figure a fix for this that doesn't grant any "new powers" but rather upgrades some aspect of the two classes (hopefully the same thing, to differing amounts, so obviously not Turning) sufficiently to make up for the loss. I was thinking of making personal healing spells (spells cast by the character on themselves only) maximized. Yet this seems light by itself. Any ideas? Isshia
FriendoftheDork 11-24-05, 07:06 AM	As I rather expected, the vote was unanimous. The Players loved the idea as it fixes the single greatest short coming in D&D as we all saw it. Final solution. We left all the classes as is (so far) and simply changed the effect time on all healing spells (not the casting time) to one hour per level of the spell. This is still healing so fast that it would be possible to watch the wounds visibly knit, so it's still definately magical enough. I would like to again thank Pinky_si for the wonderful initial suggestion that prompted this variant of it. The only problem is that this does nerf the Cleric and Druid (especially those two, especially the Cleric of those two) to no small degree. I'm trying to figure a fix for this that doesn't grant any "new powers" but rather upgrades some aspect of the two classes (hopefully the same thing, to differing amounts, so obviously not Turning) sufficiently to make up for the loss. I was thinking of making personal healing spells (spells cast by the character on themselves only) maximized. Yet this seems light by itself. Any ideas? Isshia Well sounds like a pretty good fix really. But Clerics and druids are arguably the best classes in core D&D to begin with, limiting their healing ability will only allow them to focus more of their energies on defeating their enemies. The party as a whole will be nerfed because the cleric can't heal them to combat-readiness in the middle of a fight, but not the cleric/druid in particular. The only part that you might want to fix is to allow different sort of spontaneous castings for clerics. Perhaps spontaneously cast domain spells, even those not on the cleric spell list. Being able to spontaneously cast invisibility for a Olidammara cleric would be very helpful. Remember that the cleric and druid will not be any less formidable in combat without healing spells, just less able to heal other party members. They can still buff and become more dangerous than fighters. Not saying that the class in absolutely unbalanced, just that your nerfing will not nerf the classes very much.
mesix 11-24-05, 08:23 AM	I tried to do something along these lines as well. It worked out fine till about lv. 9. There is a point in D&D where nonmagical enemies don't make sense and slow healing is too annoying. The problem basically is the folling: Enounters against high level magical entities are out of bounds for the low magic party, they will die. If I give them magical entities somewhat below their level it's sheer luck. They have no antimagic defenses. So the bad guys kill them, if they go first. On the other hand the bad guys (being of low level) have few hitpoints. So they inevitably die, when the go second. After having tried hardly, I would recommend: skip the idea. Make a low magic campaign with another system. GURPS, an adapted LotR whatever. Use D&D for the campaigns it is made for, and that is rather high magic. mesix ;)
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-24-05, 09:13 AM	As I rather expected, the vote was unanimous. The Players loved the idea as it fixes the single greatest short coming in D&D as we all saw it. Final solution. We left all the classes as is (so far) and simply changed the effect time on all healing spells (not the casting time) to one hour per level of the spell. This is still healing so fast that it would be possible to watch the wounds visibly knit, so it's still definately magical enough. I would like to again thank Pinky_si for the wonderful initial suggestion that prompted this variant of it. The only problem is that this does nerf the Cleric and Druid (especially those two, especially the Cleric of those two) to no small degree. I'm trying to figure a fix for this that doesn't grant any "new powers" but rather upgrades some aspect of the two classes (hopefully the same thing, to differing amounts, so obviously not Turning) sufficiently to make up for the loss. I was thinking of making personal healing spells (spells cast by the character on themselves only) maximized. Yet this seems light by itself. Any ideas? Isshia I glad to hear that your group came to a consensouse. As for what to about the power loss by the two classes. My recomendation would be, not much. The druid never really focused on healing in the first place, and was a more effective healer with wands, then their own spells. As for the cleric the only thing I would change would be for them would be to choose one of their domains. They may now channel spells from that domain's list instead of heal spells. If the classes are as nerfed and unplayable as you say they are, then your players will not choose to play them. However I think if took an honest look at the classes as a hole, and not just their one ablity, then you'd be surprised at the power they can throw around.
DragonDeadite 11-24-05, 10:25 AM	You might want to take a look at the Midnight Campaign setting by FFG. It takes the idea of the low-magic game and makes it viable. No gods, so no clerics. The only magic users are called Channelers and they need to take one feat for every school of magic they want to cast. Healing spells still exist, but they have to take the right feat in order to cast it, and then they seperate Conjuration and Evocation into Lesser and Greater schools. The greater of conj having the summon and call spells, the greater Evo being the Fireball and even Magic Missile style spells (any damage spell that isn't sonic) with a prereq to take the greater schools of 6th level or better with the right feats already in place. It makes things quite interesting and makes high powered magic users that much more legendary and that much more unlikely to exist as PCs. Check it out, anyone who wants to do a low-magic game will probably be able to use it without much tinkering. BTW: I hate campaign worlds. I've never purchased a campaign book until I started up the Midnight game I'm in now and now I own about half of the books that have ever come out for the game, it's a very cool world concept and the game mechanics are just awesome.
psionichamster 11-24-05, 10:51 AM	i 2nd (or third) the suggestion to allow the cleric to spontaneously cast one domain list...makes for a more tailored cleric anyways... as far as hr/lvl casting times: nice touch. that fits in nicely w/ most fantastical healing i have read, keeps the spells intact (less work = better), and keeps the classes intact. as far as power loss from the cleric/druid. i say: "Suck it up." they are the most powerful classes in the game (barring 20th lvl wizard/archmage combos...but they're special) full casting and melee prowess is more than enough. if you want to be nice, allow the spont. cast domain spells idea. if you don't particularly feel nice, don't. they probably won't suffer. as far as player tactics and survivability: being on the edge of death makes the players more "into" the game. i know, i play a 10-con, 8-str halfling sorc. in a living campaign, and every time i get ambushed, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and i get goosebumps. why? because i get into the char. and risk of death is exciting. namaste' the hamster
Cantankerous 11-24-05, 12:29 PM	You might want to take a look at the Midnight Campaign setting by FFG. It takes the idea of the low-magic game and makes it viable. No gods, so no clerics. The only magic users are called Channelers and they need to take one feat for every school of magic they want to cast. Healing spells still exist, but they have to take the right feat in order to cast it, and then they seperate Conjuration and Evocation into Lesser and Greater schools. The greater of conj having the summon and call spells, the greater Evo being the Fireball and even Magic Missile style spells (any damage spell that isn't sonic) with a prereq to take the greater schools of 6th level or better with the right feats already in place. It makes things quite interesting and makes high powered magic users that much more legendary and that much more unlikely to exist as PCs. Check it out, anyone who wants to do a low-magic game will probably be able to use it without much tinkering. BTW: I hate campaign worlds. I've never purchased a campaign book until I started up the Midnight game I'm in now and now I own about half of the books that have ever come out for the game, it's a very cool world concept and the game mechanics are just awesome. FFG? Enlighten me please. The concept sounds extremely like an old campaign of ours from 2E days, with a few differences being mostly cosmetic. I'd really like to take a look at this. Isshia
Cantankerous 11-24-05, 12:52 PM	i 2nd (or third) the suggestion to allow the cleric to spontaneously cast one domain list...makes for a more tailored cleric anyways... as far as hr/lvl casting times: nice touch. that fits in nicely w/ most fantastical healing i have read, keeps the spells intact (less work = better), and keeps the classes intact. as far as power loss from the cleric/druid. i say: "Suck it up." they are the most powerful classes in the game (barring 20th lvl wizard/archmage combos...but they're special) full casting and melee prowess is more than enough. if you want to be nice, allow the spont. cast domain spells idea. if you don't particularly feel nice, don't. they probably won't suffer. as far as player tactics and survivability: being on the edge of death makes the players more "into" the game. i know, i play a 10-con, 8-str halfling sorc. in a living campaign, and every time i get ambushed, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and i get goosebumps. why? because i get into the char. and risk of death is exciting. namaste' the hamster Hi psionichampster and OTWOATKP That doesn't sound to bad. Sponatneous casting of their available domain spells and let them choose an extra (since they do have limited choices now in my game, a list of domains open to them depending on which church they belong to, with the churches being pretty broad and erving multiple godheads pantheonisticly or a single broad ideal, like the divinity of mankind; each church has six domains that they support to the exclusion of the other churches) domain from which to choose their spells. This will give them three instead of two domains and the spontanaeity within those domains should easily compensate them. I don't see either class as over balanced at all as they stand. We ad the Fighter as a somewhat weaker class by conscencus than the other core classes, but have our own fix in place for that, so to keep Clerics (who have the uncomfortable reputation of being fanatics (which they better damned well be, seeing that they depend on an outside source for their magical capabilities) and Druids (who are persecuted as "heathens" in the more sophisticated lands of the Old World) on an even keel they need a little something extra. In my campaign, Clerics must all but outclass Paladins for fanaticism or fall (usually only temporarily) out of grace (they, not Paladins, are the major users of the Atone spell) and Druids must keep a sort of moral and philosophical perfection (they must always remain True Neutral for instance) to channel the natural energies... also facing something similiar to Atonement to "right themselves". The difficulties that go with all that ability (yes, I know full well what both are capable of... two of the three BBEGs the party has faced were Clerics) was more than enough of a balancing factor prior to this. But since it was also a good role playing set piece, I didn't want to relax the requirements. Still, nerfing their single most potent attribute this way DID need something. I think this should work though. I like it's general feel. We'll see what happens. Isshia