A twist on Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

A twist on Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zzasrix
01-19-05, 01:28 PM I used to play a fantastic game called Earthdawn. The world was permiated with magic and every class explained their abilities through magic.

The other really awesome part of the game was their magic items. Some items were your standard magic items, but others were something special altogether. These other items had to be researched, quested, and experience points had to be spent just on them, but the more time and effort you put into an item the more powerful it became.

So my question is this... how do i impliment this in my game? I like for magic items to be special and unique. Honestly how many mages wake up in the morning and say "hey i want to make something thats been done thousands of times." In my setting if a mage sets out to createa spell or item, they do it for a specific purpose and in their own unique way. I dont plan on handing out these items, but i might gift the barbarian in our game with one, and possibly the cleric.

I was thinking that most items would go something like this:
Level:
0- After you know an item is magical... nothing happens. It stays the same old item just a little more precious to the character.
1- Learn the location of the items creation and visit it.
2- Learn the name of the item. This can be a multifacited quest with nearly limitless plot hooks.
3- Find the specific perpose of the item, and if that task is incomplete then finish that task.
4- Make that item your own. Through the use of other magical items or engraving/adorning and loads of roleplaying, truly make the item your own.
5- The magic item directs you (subtly or not) into another quest.

Some items can only go so far into the levels, while others can break beyond the five levels.

How much exp/gold do you think i should make the players burn through for each level, and what do i do about the other characters in the party?

Thanks for any and all advise.

Z
deadDMwalking
01-19-05, 02:03 PM The D&D rules don't really support this form of "improving" magical items. There is no real significance to where an item is made. Likewise, an item may not have been designed for a specific "accomplishable" purpose. For example, most wizards will make an item that is designed to protect them from harm. If this item is wandering loose, it is likely it failed in its task, though is some sense it was only a matter of time.

This is different from an item that might be designed to kill all of "x" creature. Very difficult to accomplish, but there is a "goal" that can be accomplished.

So, I think you should decide if the item is already 'fully' magical and the character is 'unlocking' the potential, or if the item is becoming magical because of association with the character.

I would recommend the second choice. You might consider looking at the Kensai from Complete Warrior (iirc). They have an ability to "imbue" their weapon with magical energy based on their level. You might offer a feat "imbue item" that would be limited to a particular type (weapon & armor, ring, staff). The character could transfer XP into the item to create a more powerful version.

I would allow a character to put a single +1 for every 2 levels they possess (so a 20th level character could create a +10 item) or the equivalent. This would require the sacrifice of XP equal to 10% of the amount to achieve each level. Thus, to make an item +1 a character must be at least level 2. To reach level 2 they must have earned 3000 XP. Thus they must spend 300 XP to imbue the magical item.
Board_Rider
01-19-05, 02:16 PM I like the idea but I think that the D&D mechanics might hurt you here. Plus there aren't many players who want to stop doing what they want to do in order to fufill some magic item.
And usually to "make it worth their while" a DM has a tendency to give the PC a magic item that totaly unbalances the game. Or at the very least puts one PC in the spotlight.
So if you try to balance it out it usually falls short of players expectations:
Player:"Finally!!!! All of this side questing has unlocked my magic item!!! I am a god!!! What does it do?"
DM:"You get Feather Fall twice a day. Oh, and Dancing Lights three times a day."
Player: @!$$$%&&&@@***%%#@@!!!!!!!!!!!
Peterb
01-19-05, 02:20 PM I love where you are going with this. I employ a similar system with the campaign that I run. It is low to medium magic, in fact, the goblinoid races may actually have more prevalent ritual magic than PC classes. ANYWAYS, here's some suggestions to work with regarding magic items:

1. Institute a magic "expiration date" on many items (not all, but many). PCs that wish to keep the item in its dweomered state may need to "update" or "charge" is magical properties.

2. To emphasize your campaign world's history, PCs may need to take items back to where they were created, or a special site, such as where a hero died (if it's his sword or armor), or have a rite performed on a specific date and if not then, the item is eneffective for a whole year (in RPG time).

3. It is also important to remember that some items should not be looted or taken out of respect (if the party is of good alignment). PC may either leave the item where it was found or turn it in to others such as a temple (the temple then could always give the party a reward OR may allow the PCs to keep it if they vow to use it in the same purpose as the hero once did). DMs could facilitate this option by offering extra XPs OR possibly make the item's abilities fade, or even begin to have some negative effects on the user.

4. Parties could also find items that need to be 'activated' in some manner similar to ideas above, but once the item is activated its powers become permanent.

Just some things that we do around our table. Thoughts?
Nuffink
01-19-05, 11:30 PM Many years ago I ran an Earthdawn campaign for a couple of years and one of the things the players still say they loved about it was the unique items they had. None of them had managed to completely fulfil all the requirements for their items and there had been plenty of side quests to get the right info or perform the right task (leading to a lot of funny situations - the desparate search for undead to kill by one of the PC's, he was always unlucky and something would happen to stop him, this went on for months).

I too have been thinking about doing similar in my current D&D campaign.

I liked deadDMwalking's suggestion for the XP cost being 10% of normal character advancement.

The key thing to watch is overpowering the items - in Earthdawn it didn't matter so much as it was a very heroic fantasy - but in D&D it could affect game balance big time.

Many of these powerful items would effectively be artefacts as well.

I found that the effort I put into designing my items - with histories and requirements related to the histories - was paid back by the players enjoyment.

I'm late for work now but I'll find my Earthdawn notes to show the sort of things I created later. I look forward to seeing us come up with a good system for doing this!
Zzasrix
01-20-05, 07:52 AM Well i presented the idea to my players last night... and they bit in on it right away. There is just something totally exciting about uncovering a magical item that is wholy unique.

A few of the ground rules that im going to use:

No more than one item per person. In order to bind yourself to an item it takes all of your concentration and demands relentless persuit.

In a scene where some part of the magic in an item is uncovered the exp will be automatically taken out of the total given to that character. If the character has already expressed interest in the item, and has gone through the necessary steps to achive the next level the Exp will be taken out.

The weapons will be slightly better than what a character would normally buy from a magical weapons store. Like Board Rider said it could be very hard to make the players happy and keep game balance. (It will be a little easier for me as both of my players are family and totally new to D&D). So if in my setting a 5th level character could/should have a +2 weapon then the unique item will be a bit better than that.

Try and stay away from game mechanics and combat. Weapons, while giving bonuses to combat, will also include other functions to make them better than normal magic items. For instance a helm could include a divination spell that the player has little control over. DM:"Your eyes begin to tingle... the world opens up in front of you and you see black orcs waiting in an ambush along the path you are following." So the player cant intentionally try to break the game, but they will be pushed into the spotlight and feel like their item is helping them and the party.

So far so good i think... any suggestions on the new "rules" or on what some of the side quests should be?
Nuffink
01-21-05, 05:38 AM This needs some thinking! Here are some of my thoughts:

The basic idea (as suggested above) is that a PC (or NPC) can bond to an item and by expending XP and performing tasks they can slowly activate the items powers - at first the powers would be minor but they should increase as the PC bonds more and more with the item.

Lets say for convenience that the enchanted items have ITEM LEVELS. These levels are ACTIVATED or BONDED by spending the required XP (BOND COST) and by performing the ACTIVATION TASK. Hopefully that will help the rest of this start making sense.

Items can have up to 10 ITEM LEVELS.
The maximum BONDED LEVEL a PC can bond to is half the PC's level.
To increase the BONDED LEVEL a PC must BOND to that level and may also have to perform an ACTIVATION TASK.
BONDING to a level costs XP at the rate of 10% of normal class level XP:

Level BOND COST
1 0 - level 1 is just the 'normal' item, unactivated or bonded.
2 100
3 300
4 600
5 1000
6 1500
7 2100
8 2800
9 3600
10 4500

An ACTIVATION TASK could be anything the DM desires. Examples include gaining knowledge of the item, performing tasks, having certain prerequisites such as skills, feats, spells, BAB, caster levels or alignment, performing rituals, making oaths, living to a code etc.
The ITEM LEVELS must be BONDED in order, you cannot access powers of the item that are above the level your are BONDED to.
The BOND is unique to each individual, thus you cannot use higher level powers if someone else was BONDED to them previously.
More than one individual can be BONDED to the same item. If they wield the item then they can use whatever powers are available to the level they have BONDED to, irrespective of what level others may be BONDED to.
If it has been more than a year and a day since you last possessed an item you are BONDED to then the BOND is broken and you must restart BONDING if you possess the item again. You do not get back any XP and you must redo any required ACTIVATION TASKS.
If you break any conditions imposed on you by ACTIVATION TASKS then you may have your BOND reduced to the BONDED LEVEL below the ACTIVATION TASK you have 'broken'. This is subject to the DM's discretion - breaking your oath is obvious and should result in reduction of the BONDED LEVEL but temporarily having 10 Strength instead of your normal 22 when an ACTIVATION TASK was having at least 20 Strength should only result in temporary reduction of BONDED LEVEL. You do not get back any XP and you must redo any required ACTIVATION TASKS if your BONDED LEVEL is not just temporarily reduced.
It is assumed that a BONDED item is the PC's preferred item - they would choose it over any other of it's type and would always want it with them. i.e. it would be their most used weapon, their favourite jewelery, their everpresent hat etc.

The DM has to do a lot of work!

The DM must consider the history of the item as this will generally be key to knowing what to do to activate item levels and to the sort of powers that can be gained.
Gaining knowledge might be as simple as making a knowledge-history roll, asking a Bard or going to a library, or it might require finding some ancient tome, learning a new language, casting a relevant spell or be a part of your campaign knowledge.
Discovering what the ACTIVATION TASKS are could be quests in themselves but could be revealed in the knowledge that the PC's gain. The item could provide clues itself - remember these items are not likely to be entirely passive tools - they may be 'intelligent' or have a purpose of some kind and they may be able to influence their BONDED partner in some way - visions, pulling in a certain direction, tingling etc.
If you have an idea of the powers then write a history around them, or conversely write the history and then determine the powers.
Given the difficulty and cost in gaining BONDED LEVELS the items should provide suitable powers and this is where the DM must avoid unbalancing the game - a rule of thumb would be looking at the sorts of things a PC could buy at that level using standard wealth - this item could perhaps do a combination of things equivalent to what a PC could get out of the many items they could buy at that level.

Some ideas for powers:

Spells and spell like abilities
Improved attributes, skills, attack/damage, saving throws, movement ...
Unusual powers - ie makes flowers bloom, can freeze small bodies of water, attracts toads, walk through walls ...

Some ideas for ACTIVATION TASKS

Knowledge - items name, first wielders name, creators name, items purpose, battle cry, activation word ...
Ritual - learn and perform some ritual, maybe something you could do yourself or maybe something that requires some sacrifice (of money) or needs 1000 people to perform it!
Prerequisite - minimum skill, BAB or ability score, a feat, spell or item, a special ability such as spellcasting or lay on hands or rage ...
Live by a Code - PC may have to live by a code of honour, or do certain things such as tithe income, or always greet every stranger, or use a certain battle cry, or always buy the first round at the bar, or spread the word of a deity (hmm this could be used to help a player who is having trouble roleplaying by giving them a focus) ...
Oath - PC may have to swear to avenge a death, right a wrong, seek out and destroy evil ...
Task - this could be a minor or major quest (and a good way to hook players into your adventures if you need to) or rescue an innocent, build a boat, kill a vampire, read a book, give away all worldly possessions but the item, lead an army, bathe the item in blood or lava or the ocean or the desert sands or another plane or a demons tears ...
Other stuff - possess the item for more than a year

Things to consider:
How do ITEM LEVELS affect dispel magic, item saving throws etc.
Some abilities of the item may not fit into normal spells etc.
Some abilities may require the PC using them to use some of their energy - eg maybe take temporary CON penalty (or relevant stat) or subdual damage.
How do various spells that identify items work for the special items - ie maybe identify can show what the next ITEM LEVEL can do?

Phew, what an effort.

Next an example item ... maybe later ...
Elric Of Melnibone
01-21-05, 05:58 AM The game mechanic is in the book of exalted deeds and its call Ancestral weapon. A Feat that has to be chosen at the time of the characters creation. It sounds just like what you are describing. PC's pour exp into the weapon to level it up as they grow stronger. There also is a monetary cost to increasing the weapons stats...But with it is the freedom to make it into something that it wasn't IE. vorpal or keen or defender or returning....only the +5 attack bonus and +10 total bonus limitations apply.

This is one of the only game mechanics that I like from that book.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zzasrix 01-19-05, 01:28 PM	I used to play a fantastic game called Earthdawn. The world was permiated with magic and every class explained their abilities through magic. The other really awesome part of the game was their magic items. Some items were your standard magic items, but others were something special altogether. These other items had to be researched, quested, and experience points had to be spent just on them, but the more time and effort you put into an item the more powerful it became. So my question is this... how do i impliment this in my game? I like for magic items to be special and unique. Honestly how many mages wake up in the morning and say "hey i want to make something thats been done thousands of times." In my setting if a mage sets out to createa spell or item, they do it for a specific purpose and in their own unique way. I dont plan on handing out these items, but i might gift the barbarian in our game with one, and possibly the cleric. I was thinking that most items would go something like this: Level: 0- After you know an item is magical... nothing happens. It stays the same old item just a little more precious to the character. 1- Learn the location of the items creation and visit it. 2- Learn the name of the item. This can be a multifacited quest with nearly limitless plot hooks. 3- Find the specific perpose of the item, and if that task is incomplete then finish that task. 4- Make that item your own. Through the use of other magical items or engraving/adorning and loads of roleplaying, truly make the item your own. 5- The magic item directs you (subtly or not) into another quest. Some items can only go so far into the levels, while others can break beyond the five levels. How much exp/gold do you think i should make the players burn through for each level, and what do i do about the other characters in the party? Thanks for any and all advise. Z
deadDMwalking 01-19-05, 02:03 PM	The D&D rules don't really support this form of "improving" magical items. There is no real significance to where an item is made. Likewise, an item may not have been designed for a specific "accomplishable" purpose. For example, most wizards will make an item that is designed to protect them from harm. If this item is wandering loose, it is likely it failed in its task, though is some sense it was only a matter of time. This is different from an item that might be designed to kill all of "x" creature. Very difficult to accomplish, but there is a "goal" that can be accomplished. So, I think you should decide if the item is already 'fully' magical and the character is 'unlocking' the potential, or if the item is becoming magical because of association with the character. I would recommend the second choice. You might consider looking at the Kensai from Complete Warrior (iirc). They have an ability to "imbue" their weapon with magical energy based on their level. You might offer a feat "imbue item" that would be limited to a particular type (weapon & armor, ring, staff). The character could transfer XP into the item to create a more powerful version. I would allow a character to put a single +1 for every 2 levels they possess (so a 20th level character could create a +10 item) or the equivalent. This would require the sacrifice of XP equal to 10% of the amount to achieve each level. Thus, to make an item +1 a character must be at least level 2. To reach level 2 they must have earned 3000 XP. Thus they must spend 300 XP to imbue the magical item.
Board_Rider 01-19-05, 02:16 PM	I like the idea but I think that the D&D mechanics might hurt you here. Plus there aren't many players who want to stop doing what they want to do in order to fufill some magic item. And usually to "make it worth their while" a DM has a tendency to give the PC a magic item that totaly unbalances the game. Or at the very least puts one PC in the spotlight. So if you try to balance it out it usually falls short of players expectations: Player:"Finally!!!! All of this side questing has unlocked my magic item!!! I am a god!!! What does it do?" DM:"You get Feather Fall twice a day. Oh, and Dancing Lights three times a day." Player: @!$$$%&&&@@***%%#@@!!!!!!!!!!!
Peterb 01-19-05, 02:20 PM	I love where you are going with this. I employ a similar system with the campaign that I run. It is low to medium magic, in fact, the goblinoid races may actually have more prevalent ritual magic than PC classes. ANYWAYS, here's some suggestions to work with regarding magic items: 1. Institute a magic "expiration date" on many items (not all, but many). PCs that wish to keep the item in its dweomered state may need to "update" or "charge" is magical properties. 2. To emphasize your campaign world's history, PCs may need to take items back to where they were created, or a special site, such as where a hero died (if it's his sword or armor), or have a rite performed on a specific date and if not then, the item is eneffective for a whole year (in RPG time). 3. It is also important to remember that some items should not be looted or taken out of respect (if the party is of good alignment). PC may either leave the item where it was found or turn it in to others such as a temple (the temple then could always give the party a reward OR may allow the PCs to keep it if they vow to use it in the same purpose as the hero once did). DMs could facilitate this option by offering extra XPs OR possibly make the item's abilities fade, or even begin to have some negative effects on the user. 4. Parties could also find items that need to be 'activated' in some manner similar to ideas above, but once the item is activated its powers become permanent. Just some things that we do around our table. Thoughts?
Nuffink 01-19-05, 11:30 PM	Many years ago I ran an Earthdawn campaign for a couple of years and one of the things the players still say they loved about it was the unique items they had. None of them had managed to completely fulfil all the requirements for their items and there had been plenty of side quests to get the right info or perform the right task (leading to a lot of funny situations - the desparate search for undead to kill by one of the PC's, he was always unlucky and something would happen to stop him, this went on for months). I too have been thinking about doing similar in my current D&D campaign. I liked deadDMwalking's suggestion for the XP cost being 10% of normal character advancement. The key thing to watch is overpowering the items - in Earthdawn it didn't matter so much as it was a very heroic fantasy - but in D&D it could affect game balance big time. Many of these powerful items would effectively be artefacts as well. I found that the effort I put into designing my items - with histories and requirements related to the histories - was paid back by the players enjoyment. I'm late for work now but I'll find my Earthdawn notes to show the sort of things I created later. I look forward to seeing us come up with a good system for doing this!
Zzasrix 01-20-05, 07:52 AM	Well i presented the idea to my players last night... and they bit in on it right away. There is just something totally exciting about uncovering a magical item that is wholy unique. A few of the ground rules that im going to use: No more than one item per person. In order to bind yourself to an item it takes all of your concentration and demands relentless persuit. In a scene where some part of the magic in an item is uncovered the exp will be automatically taken out of the total given to that character. If the character has already expressed interest in the item, and has gone through the necessary steps to achive the next level the Exp will be taken out. The weapons will be slightly better than what a character would normally buy from a magical weapons store. Like Board Rider said it could be very hard to make the players happy and keep game balance. (It will be a little easier for me as both of my players are family and totally new to D&D). So if in my setting a 5th level character could/should have a +2 weapon then the unique item will be a bit better than that. Try and stay away from game mechanics and combat. Weapons, while giving bonuses to combat, will also include other functions to make them better than normal magic items. For instance a helm could include a divination spell that the player has little control over. DM:"Your eyes begin to tingle... the world opens up in front of you and you see black orcs waiting in an ambush along the path you are following." So the player cant intentionally try to break the game, but they will be pushed into the spotlight and feel like their item is helping them and the party. So far so good i think... any suggestions on the new "rules" or on what some of the side quests should be?
Nuffink 01-21-05, 05:38 AM	This needs some thinking! Here are some of my thoughts: The basic idea (as suggested above) is that a PC (or NPC) can bond to an item and by expending XP and performing tasks they can slowly activate the items powers - at first the powers would be minor but they should increase as the PC bonds more and more with the item. Lets say for convenience that the enchanted items have ITEM LEVELS. These levels are ACTIVATED or BONDED by spending the required XP (BOND COST) and by performing the ACTIVATION TASK. Hopefully that will help the rest of this start making sense. Items can have up to 10 ITEM LEVELS. The maximum BONDED LEVEL a PC can bond to is half the PC's level. To increase the BONDED LEVEL a PC must BOND to that level and may also have to perform an ACTIVATION TASK. BONDING to a level costs XP at the rate of 10% of normal class level XP: Level BOND COST 1 0 - level 1 is just the 'normal' item, unactivated or bonded. 2 100 3 300 4 600 5 1000 6 1500 7 2100 8 2800 9 3600 10 4500 An ACTIVATION TASK could be anything the DM desires. Examples include gaining knowledge of the item, performing tasks, having certain prerequisites such as skills, feats, spells, BAB, caster levels or alignment, performing rituals, making oaths, living to a code etc. The ITEM LEVELS must be BONDED in order, you cannot access powers of the item that are above the level your are BONDED to. The BOND is unique to each individual, thus you cannot use higher level powers if someone else was BONDED to them previously. More than one individual can be BONDED to the same item. If they wield the item then they can use whatever powers are available to the level they have BONDED to, irrespective of what level others may be BONDED to. If it has been more than a year and a day since you last possessed an item you are BONDED to then the BOND is broken and you must restart BONDING if you possess the item again. You do not get back any XP and you must redo any required ACTIVATION TASKS. If you break any conditions imposed on you by ACTIVATION TASKS then you may have your BOND reduced to the BONDED LEVEL below the ACTIVATION TASK you have 'broken'. This is subject to the DM's discretion - breaking your oath is obvious and should result in reduction of the BONDED LEVEL but temporarily having 10 Strength instead of your normal 22 when an ACTIVATION TASK was having at least 20 Strength should only result in temporary reduction of BONDED LEVEL. You do not get back any XP and you must redo any required ACTIVATION TASKS if your BONDED LEVEL is not just temporarily reduced. It is assumed that a BONDED item is the PC's preferred item - they would choose it over any other of it's type and would always want it with them. i.e. it would be their most used weapon, their favourite jewelery, their everpresent hat etc. The DM has to do a lot of work! The DM must consider the history of the item as this will generally be key to knowing what to do to activate item levels and to the sort of powers that can be gained. Gaining knowledge might be as simple as making a knowledge-history roll, asking a Bard or going to a library, or it might require finding some ancient tome, learning a new language, casting a relevant spell or be a part of your campaign knowledge. Discovering what the ACTIVATION TASKS are could be quests in themselves but could be revealed in the knowledge that the PC's gain. The item could provide clues itself - remember these items are not likely to be entirely passive tools - they may be 'intelligent' or have a purpose of some kind and they may be able to influence their BONDED partner in some way - visions, pulling in a certain direction, tingling etc. If you have an idea of the powers then write a history around them, or conversely write the history and then determine the powers. Given the difficulty and cost in gaining BONDED LEVELS the items should provide suitable powers and this is where the DM must avoid unbalancing the game - a rule of thumb would be looking at the sorts of things a PC could buy at that level using standard wealth - this item could perhaps do a combination of things equivalent to what a PC could get out of the many items they could buy at that level. Some ideas for powers: Spells and spell like abilities Improved attributes, skills, attack/damage, saving throws, movement ... Unusual powers - ie makes flowers bloom, can freeze small bodies of water, attracts toads, walk through walls ... Some ideas for ACTIVATION TASKS Knowledge - items name, first wielders name, creators name, items purpose, battle cry, activation word ... Ritual - learn and perform some ritual, maybe something you could do yourself or maybe something that requires some sacrifice (of money) or needs 1000 people to perform it! Prerequisite - minimum skill, BAB or ability score, a feat, spell or item, a special ability such as spellcasting or lay on hands or rage ... Live by a Code - PC may have to live by a code of honour, or do certain things such as tithe income, or always greet every stranger, or use a certain battle cry, or always buy the first round at the bar, or spread the word of a deity (hmm this could be used to help a player who is having trouble roleplaying by giving them a focus) ... Oath - PC may have to swear to avenge a death, right a wrong, seek out and destroy evil ... Task - this could be a minor or major quest (and a good way to hook players into your adventures if you need to) or rescue an innocent, build a boat, kill a vampire, read a book, give away all worldly possessions but the item, lead an army, bathe the item in blood or lava or the ocean or the desert sands or another plane or a demons tears ... Other stuff - possess the item for more than a year Things to consider: How do ITEM LEVELS affect dispel magic, item saving throws etc. Some abilities of the item may not fit into normal spells etc. Some abilities may require the PC using them to use some of their energy - eg maybe take temporary CON penalty (or relevant stat) or subdual damage. How do various spells that identify items work for the special items - ie maybe identify can show what the next ITEM LEVEL can do? Phew, what an effort. Next an example item ... maybe later ...
Elric Of Melnibone 01-21-05, 05:58 AM	The game mechanic is in the book of exalted deeds and its call Ancestral weapon. A Feat that has to be chosen at the time of the characters creation. It sounds just like what you are describing. PC's pour exp into the weapon to level it up as they grow stronger. There also is a monetary cost to increasing the weapons stats...But with it is the freedom to make it into something that it wasn't IE. vorpal or keen or defender or returning....only the +5 attack bonus and +10 total bonus limitations apply. This is one of the only game mechanics that I like from that book.