Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkStevenson 02-28-04, 09:23 PM	A player of mine has told me of this variant he says he has found on the web (dunno which site) can you tell me if it's ok or it will make spellcasters too overpowered? Each spellcaster can cast a number of spells per day equal to his spell slots per day, but instead of memorising those spells he has a number of spells known (like the sorcerer) I'll tell you how you can figure out the number below. These spells known can be changed from day to day, so a 1st level wizard can select as his spells known in one day magic missile and mage armor and on the next day chill touch and true strike. Same goes for the other spellcasting classes. The domain spells of the cleric are always known but there is only one domain slot which can be used for those spells each day. To figure the number of known spells each day you add 11 to the characters caster level(the rangers and paladins get 1 caster level per 2 class levels as normal, the only exception is that bards get 2/3 of a caster level (for this calculation only) per class level rounded to the nearest integer). Then you check the ability modifiers and bonus spells table (1-1 pg 8 of the players handbook). You add the number you have found from the above calculation to the normal spells per day number of the character, this is the character's spells known for that day.To calculate the character's 0th level spells known you use the modifier for the 1st level spells. Specialist wizards get to ready one extra spell from their specialist school and have one extra spell per day which they must use with one of the spells of their specialist school. The only exception is the sorcerer. After you have found his spells known from the above equation you subtract the number 3 from all levels except for the 0th level spells so for example: A 10th level bard has 3/3/3/2/0 spells per day (not calculating modifiers for high charisma) two thirds of 10 is 6.66 which rounded to the nearest integer is 7 checking the listing in table 1-1 for 11+7=18 it shows a bonus of +1/+1/+1/+1 so the character's spells known is 4/4/4/3/1 for that day (note that his 0th level spells known are equal to 3 plus the bonus for the 1st level) for a 10th level sorcerer we have this calculation spells per day: 6/6/6/6/5/3 the bonus from table 1-1 for 11+10=21 is: 2/1/1/1/1 so his spells known are: 8/5/4/4/3/1 for a 10th level ranger we have this calculation spells per day: 1/1 the bonus from table 1-1 for 11+5=16 is: 1/1/1 so his spells known are: 2/2 (he doesn't get extra spells known from 3rd level spells because he can't cast 3rd level spells) what do you think of this variant? too good? too bad? ok? you didn't quite understand it? my only concern is that it will make the difference between sorcerers and wizards almost nonexistant, what do you think? edit: wizards still have to keep spellbooks, sorcerers sorta concentrate on their dragonic blood (I think he said it exactly like this) and freely choose from the sorcerer spell list each day
Edymnion 02-28-04, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by DarkStevenson what do you think of this variant? too good? too bad? ok? you didn't quite understand it? I'll go with "didn't quite understand it". Let me see if I can get this straight without all the extra information (since you didn't appear to actually come out and say it). He gets a spellbook like a wizard, and he gets spells known like a sorcerer. Of these, he gets so many a day as spontaneous magic (which he can change which ones he knows every day), and the rest he has to study for like normal. So, he is essentially a wizard that can cast some of his spells like a sorcerer, is this right?
DarkStevenson 02-28-04, 10:11 PM	Not quite it's like this let's say you have a wizard he wakes up in the morning and studies his spellbook let's say he has 5 spells known for the 1st level he picks magic missile, mage armor, chill touch, enlarge person and identify then he has 6 spells (with the bonus spells for high intelligence) he can spend theese 6 spells in any combination as he wanted. He could cast 6 magic missiles or 4 magic missiles and 2 mage armors etc. oh something I forgot to say is that metamagiced spells have to be memorised differently (so a wizard who wants to be able to cast fireball and a maximized fireball has to spend one of his spells known from the 3rd level and one from the 6th level) a sorcerer or a bard apply the changes when casting turning their spells to full round action spells
bitnine 02-28-04, 10:18 PM	So, it's like a sorcerer who sets his spell list through a memorization process from a spellbook each morning? If so, this variant does add power to the wizard, certainly, without asking for anything in exchange.
BlaineTog 02-28-04, 10:18 PM	Dude, this is broken. What you have is LIKE a sorcerer, but with Spell Swap whenever he wants. Smack your player with the DMG (that's why it's hardcover :teach: ) for even attempting to get something this broken past you.
DarkStevenson 02-28-04, 10:24 PM	Well he said he saw something similar to this in the arcana unearthed net book from Monte Cook (a friend of a friend of his has bought it) so he searched the internet to find it and that's what he came up with I'm not sure if it's exactly the same as the book or not also this applies to all spell casters not just wizards, the way he explained it , wizards get more spells known and less spell slots while sorcerers get more spell slots and less spells known (that is if I understood the reasoning correctly) also I'm concerned with the balance after this between the non spellcasting classes (rogue, monk fighter and barbarian) with the spellcasting classes (the other 7 classes)
Edymnion 02-28-04, 10:58 PM	Oh, no no no, do not let this happen unless you have ONLY a wizard for a primary arcane caster (aka, the sorcerer does not exhist in your game). No, the whole point to the Wizard setup as is is that you have to be good enough to plan correctly. Did you only memorize 2 attack spells when you really needed 5? Or memorized nothing but attack spells and the dungeon turns out to be all puzzle based? No, if you want that kind of flexbility, you really need to use the Sorcerer. Your player is basically saying he wants the unlimited spells of a wizard, but the versatility of the Sorcerer. It doesn't matter that the wizard get fewer spells per day than the Sorcerer. By doing this, you are effectively doubling or even tripling his spell use. Instead of memorizing three magic missles, he only has to memorize one, and he's suddenly opened up 2 new slots for other spells. While this in and of itself is NOT a bad variant, it is a bad variant when you're trying to be fair to the Sorcerer. You are effectively taking the wizard's greatest strength (the massive spells known), and giving him most of the Sorcerer's power. If you only want one arcane spellcaster, this will be okay. If the player wants to introduce this into a normal campaign where wizards and sorcerers are already running around, no, don't let them.
deadDMwalking 02-28-04, 11:06 PM	Well, I would have appreciated you posting the wizard, but I think I'll take a stab at it. First, let's look at a typical 10th level wizard. A 10th level wizard(lets say with an 18 intelligence) has +0/+1/+1/+1/+0/+0 A 10th level wizard has spells per day of 4/4/4/3/3/2 Normally a wizard would have: 4 0th level spells prepared in advance 5 1st level spells prepared in advance 5 2nd level spells prepared in advance 4 3rd level spells prepared in advance 3 4th level spells prepared in advance & 2 5th level spells prepared in advance Under this new system - A 10th level wizard (lets say with an 18 intelligence) has 10 (his level) + 11 (just because) for a total of 21 to determine how many spells a day he gets. With a 21 they would have +0/+2/+1/+1/+1/+1 on the bonus spells table. A typical 10th level wizard has spells per day of 4/4/4/3/3/2 Now, since we use the bonus for 1st level for 0 level he knows 6 0 level spells that he could choose to cast 6 1st level spells that he could choose to cast 5 2nd level spells that he could choose to cast 4 3rd level spells that he could choose to cast 4 4th level spells that he could choose to cast & 3 5th level spells that he could choose to cast. This means that he knows 2 more 0 level spells than he can cast each day. He knows 1 more 1st level spell than he can cast each day. He knows the same number of 2nd level spells that he can cast each day. He knows the same number of 3rd level spells he can cast each day. He knows one more 4th level spell then he can cast each day. He knows one more 5th level spell then he can cast each day. I think that answers the question correctly. Essentially, you're allowing the typical wizard to prepare at least one extra spell per level, but not allowing him to cast any more than normal. For the wizard it is nearly the same as preparing each spell in advance, but you have more options. I think it is clearly "unbalanced" for a wizard. I don't think it is so terribly unbalanced that it isn't playable. And the higher the intelligence bonus of the wizard, the worse this system becomes. If you have a Intelligence of, let's say, 46, you'll get more bonus spells then you will have "known spells" each day, so you'll have to cast the same spell over and over. With a lower intelligence that isn't a problem. So, I would recommend not allowing it.
Taran Alvein 02-29-04, 12:01 AM	...As if Wizards weren't strong enough as it is.
Rudigrrr 02-29-04, 06:43 AM	I consider myself an intelligent person, with a good mind for math and logical progressions.... I have read all of this posts slowly and carefully.... I have never been more confused in my life... = ) HaHa!! I don't know if it's the fact that the clock says 5:30 a.m. or that I just wasn't understanding the explanations properly, but I feel like a world class idiot... :D Just wanted to share my stupidity It is apparent that I must fight insomnia, it is my only hope... :zzz:
DarkStevenson 02-29-04, 07:41 AM	I don't think it is so terribly unbalanced that it isn't playable. And the higher the intelligence bonus of the wizard, the worse this system becomes. If you have a Intelligence of, let's say, 46, you'll get more bonus spells then you will have "known spells" each day, so you'll have to cast the same spell over and over. With a lower intelligence that isn't a problem. I can't say I understand what you mean by that deadDMwalking can you please explain? The system is kinda weird Rudigrrr. It took me quite some time to understand it myself(which I consider it kind of a problem since most of my players are newbies). Let me see if I can explain it in deadDMwalking's example a 10th level wizard with an intelligence of 18 would have 4/4/4/3/3/2 spells per day and would know 6 0th level spells 6 1st level spells 5 2nd level spells 4 3rd level spells 4 4th level spells 3 5th level spells that means that he can select 6 0th level spells for that day. He has 4 0th level spell slots. So during the day he can use those 4 slots to cast any 0th level spell he has picked as part of his spells known for that level I also at first not wanted to allow this it's just that he mentioned Monte Cook so I kinda started having doubts (that's why I didn't mention where he got the original idea in the first post so as not to influence you)
deadDMwalking 02-29-04, 10:07 AM	I'll try to explain what I mean regarding the more intelligence a wizard has, the less they benefit from this system. A wizard gets spell slots per day (total spells cast) based on wizard level, and bonus spells. A 10th level wizard with an intelligence of 18 gets (to compare) 2 5th level spells. The same wizard with a 45 intelligence is able to cast 6 5th level spells each day because of the bonus spells. The system your player proposes allows a wizard to know spells based on only one thing, wizard level. (Unless you failed to include that above) a Wizard doesn't know more spells per day for having a high intelligence. So, the wizard with an 18 intelligence "knows" 3 5th level spells, but can only cast 2 of them. He could also cast the same spell twice, or once. He does have more flexibility. The wizard with a 45 intelligence "knows" 3 5th level spells but can cast 6 per day. That means the wizard with the really high intelligence is unable to "memorize" 6 different spells. They'll only be able to "know" 3 spells. Now, they could cast the same spell 6 times, or each spell twice, so there is some flexibility... I think that you're really giving more flexibility without asking for much for the typical wizard. "knowing" and "preparing" might end up being the same for number of spells per day, but you do get the advantage in being able to cast the same spell repeatedly. Generally, even though I don't really like the system of magic presented in D&D I wouldn't suggest allowing this change. If you were going to allow something like this, I would propose "knowing" only the number of spells you can cast each day for your level -1. For a 10th level wizard that would be 3/3/3/2/2/1 (10th level wizard progression, with a -1 in each slot) Now, a wizard will typically have bonus spells, but they won't "know" any additional spells for that bonus spell. So, the wizard knows the spells as listed above, but with an 18 intelligence they can cast 4/5/5/4/3/3/2. This ensures that they know fewer spells than they have slots. It ensures that they are giving up a little of their flexibility. Instead of having 4 spells prepared that they can only cast once, each, they'll have 3 spells prepared but can cast eah one multiple times. Does that make sense? I'm trying to make sure they make some sacrifice. Because if their spells known = spells per day they have more flexibility without any cost. When spells known > spells per day they have a marked advantage.
PaladinSix 02-29-04, 11:56 AM	I have tried to wade through all the above-posted math and I couldn't do it, mostly because I just did most of the same calculations when reviewing the variant Spell Point system in the newly-published Unearthed Arcana. I think that is where your PC is getting his basic premise, even though the math is a little different. The UA system basically adds a lot of flexibility to a wizard, by allowing him to chose his spells on the fly, like a sorcerer. Of course, the sorcerer PC then feels slighted, since his primary skill is now trumped by the wizard. However, the Spell Point system in UA compensates for that by giving sorcerers one additional spell known per level and more spell points than a wizard. Whether or not it's balanced is probably a question dependent on individual campaigns, and whether or not it's fair to a sorcerer is a question of perspective. Sorcerers will probably say no, while wizards will desperately try to explain why it doesn't overpower their character. I like the basic idea, and have used my variation on this in several previous campaigns. It can work pretty well and add a lot of excitement for spellcasters. The trick is to maintain the distinction between sorcerers and wizards: Wizards= more spells known, fewer spells cast Sorcerers= fewer spells known, more spells cast By the way, the above discussion relates to sorcerers and wizards, but the UA system applies equally to clerics, druids, etc.
Ilanthe 02-29-04, 12:43 PM	Originally posted by DarkStevenson The system is kinda weird Rudigrrr. It took me quite some time to understand it myself(which I consider it kind of a problem since most of my players are newbies). ... I also at first not wanted to allow this it's just that he mentioned Monte Cook so I kinda started having doubts (that's why I didn't mention where he got the original idea in the first post so as not to influence you) Don't be influenced by name dropping ... be influenced by whether you feel the system is right for campaign. Explain to your player that you aren't going to allow this, for now. Personally I think it muddies the water between wizards and sorcerers - but like some others I don't find it the easiest thing to come to grips with either. The essential bits for me, if I read it correctly, are: wizards get to memorize x spells per day, which they can then cast freely up to the number of spells they can normally cast. They get the freedom of a sorcerer (to chose his spells on the fly) without the disadvantage of a much smaller, and not interchangeable, spells known list. Until you're sure you want this in your campaign, just say no ;)
Linthar 02-29-04, 07:15 PM	There is a system like this for arcana unearthed. If you really want it you should buy the book it is good. However AU has a whole different set of classes and a different spell system and the AU casting system would be unbalanced when used with core classes. So you shouldn't use this in my mind.
Bryarr 02-29-04, 07:27 PM	Monte Cook is a great designer. I like almost all his stuff. One thing I have noticed, however, is he designs magic pretty high on the power scale. That having been said....this variant is a load of trash. The wizard is extraordinarily powerful at higher levels. This is balanced by the fact that when he is young, he majorly sucks. A wizard that has survived that long gets rewarded. This variant takes away the major downside to being a young wizard, and actually makes him MORE powerful when he's older. That's just retarded. Tell your player that its an interesting idea that has been executed poorly. Bry
deadDMwalking 02-29-04, 11:50 PM	I have my Arcana Unearthed, but it is the wizards one, not the Monte Cook one. I haven't read it all, but it looks like we're going to start a new campaign (more on that later). One of my players is going to play a specialist wizard, and it had a similar ability that I chose to allow. Normally a specialist wizard gets +1 spells per day of his specialty. Under this variant, this wizard will give up his extra spell each day but he can "swap" out an uncast spell. Doing so requires 1 minute per spell level. For me, that was the deciding factor. It doesn't add anything to the combat power of the wizard because he has to stop and spend a really long time doing it, but it does add to his flexibility in a way that makes the game more fun for everyone. For example, when you come to a locked door in the middle of the wilderness and the wizard says "sorry guys, I know the thief bought it, but after all the orcs I thought I should take an extra magic missile" it gets frustrating for players and for the DM. Waiting while they camp outside while the wizard can get a knock spell..... But the important this is that he can't just cast the spells he "knows". He still prepares them. He can just loose a prepared spell and prepare another in it's place (with some time). It is similar to a wizard that chooses to leave spell slots open, but more flexible, and I think it is (nearly ;-)) balanced by the loss of 1 spell per spell level.
Escef 03-01-04, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by deadDMwalking I have my Arcana Unearthed, but it is the wizards one, not the Monte Cook one. Umm... No, you don't. WotC published Unearthed Arcana, not Arcana Unearthed, notice the difference in title? That said, I don't know where these weird equations came from. I don't recall seeing them in my copy of AU. The premise is that the wizard can prep more spells than he can cast, and may cast any spell prepped from an appropriate slot, much like a sorcerer. However, he keeps the wizard's versatility in being able to know many more spells than a sorcerer. He can't cast more spells per day than normal, but has a broader selection of what he can cast at any point. I hope I have made the idea a little more understandable.
adiaven 03-01-04, 12:48 AM	You may want to suggest to the player something in the core rules, that a lot of people overlook: A wizard does not have to prepare all of his spells in the morning. Experienced wizards know to leave a few slots open for buffs or utility spells to prepare as nessecary through the day. It takes at least 15 minutes of quiet time to prepare a spell, so a wizard could never prepare one while being chased or in combat. Between a few low level open spell slots and scribe scrolls, a smart wizard should be prepared for almost any non combat situation. And for those combat situations, a good staff is a great thing to have.
Olli 03-01-04, 04:47 AM	Originally posted by BlaineTog Dude, this is broken. What you have is LIKE a sorcerer, but with Spell Swap whenever he wants. Smack your player with the DMG (that's why it's hardcover :teach: ) for even attempting to get something this broken past you. :heehee i tought that i was the only one using the dm in this way
Ricros 03-01-04, 06:24 AM	What you COULD do as a comprimise is: 1 - Seperate the Bonus Spells from the Normal spells per day. 2 - Make him prepare normal spells per day as per normal. 3 - Let his cast the bonus spells spontaneously, choosing from a list made up of spells he has prepared that day. For example: Hawking is a 3rd level wizard with 16 int. He can cast 4 cantrips, two level 1's, and one level 2. He can also cast one bonus spell each level. At first level, he prepares a magic missile and a mage armor. Later on, he meets Moore, a rival wizard. Hawking casts mage armor and gets ready for battle, knowing he can use two magic missiles. Moore responds and throws a bomb of mage armor dispelling, getting rid of Hawking's armor. Luckily, Hawking can use up his bonus spell on another mage armor because he already prepared one today. Had he been trained as a standard wizard, he'd be stuck with two magic missiles, and an easy target for Moore. Basically, it allows you to cast one or two spells per level spontaneously from a limited list. However, Hawking can only prepare one second level spell, forcing him to use his bonus on that spell, as well. I think that's a fair trade, and adds even more variety to wizards.
DarkStevenson 03-02-04, 08:40 PM	Well the more you mention it the more I seem to see that it really is unbalanced so I probably won't use it I don't know about your system Ricos, it sounds ok but I don't think that any wizard would do that.I remember when I played wizards I used to make scrolls of the effect spells I don't use that often like knock and wands of spells I used more often like mage armor and memorised all my spells per day as attack spells. Instead (so as not to let him down) I'm considering of letting scrolls be uses from here on in my campaign as staves. Even though the caster level is set at the time of creation they would be affected by the caster's intelligence and feats when cast so as to find out the DC's. Is that too unfair? A wizard does not have to prepare all of his spells in the morning. Experienced wizards know to leave a few slots open for buffs or utility spells to prepare as nessecary through the day. It takes at least 15 minutes of quiet time to prepare a spell, so a wizard could never prepare one while being chased or in combat. Between a few low level open spell slots and scribe scrolls, a smart wizard should be prepared for almost any non combat situation. And for those combat situations, a good staff is a great thing to have. where does it say that? I think it says in the PHB that the wizard has to be well rested before he can memorise spells, wouldn't that mean that he has to rest 8 more hours then spend the 15 minutes to fill up that slot?
Escef 03-02-04, 10:51 PM	Originally posted by DarkStevenson I think it says in the PHB that the wizard has to be well rested before he can memorise spells, wouldn't that mean that he has to rest 8 more hours then spend the 15 minutes to fill up that slot? It's in the Magic chapter. The rest only "resets" his spell slots. After that he can prep whenever he really wants to, provided there are no distractions.