A Warhorse than can Flank and avoid AOOs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Warhorse than can Flank and avoid AOOs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gawynn Glenblade
11-09-03, 01:06 PM I have a player who's character is a ranger. He recently befriended a horse using Animal Friendship. During combat he started having his horse flank and attack opponents he was attacking. Furthermore, the horse was moving around opponents in a way that he avoided Attacks of Opportunity.

I told him I thought this was incredibly silly and that I really didn't like it. He brought up the fact another character (a druid) has a wolf companion that has flanked and avoided AOOs. I countered that saying that a wolf is an animal that is born and raised to hunt. It kills its food. A horse is not a hunting animal. It eats grass. A warhorse is trained to be aggressive, yes, but avoiding AOO and flanking? It just seems ridiculous to me.

So I started looking into the various rules on Animal Companions. As far as I can tell, he's going to have to spend at least 2 months teaching the warhorse some of the tricks he wants it to know. So as of right now (shortly after buying the horse and being on an adventure) he would have had no time to train the horse to do anything. On the other hand, the druid has had his wolf since 1st level so I could argue that he taught the wolf these tricks before meeting the rest of the party.

I still find it silly that the warhorse is flanking and avoiding AOO, but what do you think would be a feasible requirement (using Handle Animal to teach it tricks) for allowing his horse to be doing these things?

I should add that we're currently playing with the 3.0 rules, if that makes any difference.
tarkin
11-09-03, 01:35 PM That is debatable.

All avoiding AoO is avoiding getting hit. Any animal would do that naturally. I would rule he would have to train it to not avoid AOO's.

Flanking is a bit more complex, but I agree that hunting/predator creatures shold do it naturally, and that herbivores should not.

But a trained Warhorse shold typically be trained to do it along with the other basic things it was trained to do. If he bought the horse it as a "warhorse" instead of a "riding horse" it should already know that.
Gawynn Glenblade
11-10-03, 12:26 AM Anybody else have any insight/suggestions?
Old_One
11-10-03, 05:15 AM Animals arre animals. The horse would not fight at all. If the ranger got hit the horse might get angry and atack the enemy but just that one. Only after he learns his horse "tricks" would the horse atack with tactics in mind and even then only if told so.

Now there is realy no limits to what you can teach an animal companion with the right handle animal DC. You could teach him to flnak with a DC20, to performe aid another with a DC26, or to jump up and down and perform trick with flaming blades with DC58 but thats just silly, or is it hmmm? :D
Now all of the above DCs are just of the top of my head I would have to check the skils description to be more acurate...
Rabe
11-10-03, 09:26 AM Here is my ruling for such things:
- Horses do not fight unless attacked, and they try to run first.
- If it is a trained warhorse, it will fight when attacked first.
- If it is a trained warhorse and has a rider, who can actually ride, he can get it to attack in the usual rule frame for this.

Druids can achieve more, if they are using the magic for that purpose (like Awaken, Speak with Animals, etc.), but they still cannot bring a herbivore to act like a predator in my game.

Just because some low HD animals have gotten nice combat stats in the MM does not mean, that they are easily accessible bonus attacks and combat bonuses themselves. They had to give them some plausible stats, but thats all.

Rabe
Feyd Rautha
11-10-03, 10:07 AM Read the entry for the attack command (you might have to refer to the 3.0 book since I think they removed the text in 3.5). IIRC the animal companion attacks the foe it is directed to attack with no flair or specials...yes even wolves. I don't know what happened to this text in 3.5, but if you need the 3.0 text as to what each trick covered within it means then I can e-mail it or post it. Also, look at MotW because there are extra tricks in there that I'm sure the characters will want.

Moving on from that, it sounds like you don't have a very tight reign on the training of animals (or your players are misleading you). They have to choose the tricks and they can't change. Most of the time you don't have to train animal companions as the "magic" of it means they pick up whatever tricks you want them to as soon as you get them, but for other animals the handle animal checks and training times are necessary. Regardless, here's a list of things that the players might want to consider using tricks for:

-Animals will not attack unnatural creatures (werewolves, undead, aberrations) without TWO attack tricks.
-Learning to be ridden isn't a trick in most campaigns for horses and riding dogs (unless you feel the need to hose the PC's on a trick for their horses), but the ability to wear barding IS a trick that must be learned.
-Animals will not go underground without a trick (which is in MotW).
-Animals cannot aid attack, aid defense, guard another, guard a spot, guard the PC, or be called off from killing a foe when told to attack it without appropriate tricks.

Gawynn, I strongly recommend reading Masters of the Wild and the 3.0 DMG section on animal companions. Both of them will show you that having an animal companion is NOT the same as having an NPC fighter to do what you want. You need to require a trick (at your discretion since it isn't in the core rulebooks or even MotW) that would allow the PC's in question to give a "flank" command in order to flank and attack. Personally, I would say it's too complex for an animal intelligence, but your explanation of the wolf does make some sense since that is how wolves fight. This also means that you would have to think up "horse specific" tricks to make up for the fact that the wolf can learn the "flank" trick. Might I suggest a "donkey kick" trick where the horse does a 2d6+6 back kick option as an attack to the rear? It doesn't (nor will it) exist in DnD b/c they don't have facing, but DM's aren't constrained by everything WotC says.

Hope that helps and post up more if you have questions or need to clarify more,

Feyd
Gawynn Glenblade
11-10-03, 10:37 AM I've been reading a lot on Animal Companions, from the Handle Animal skill in the PHB, to the Animal Companions side bar in the DMG, to the Animal Companion section in MotW, to the additional tricks describe in Arms & Equipment Guide.

From the DMG:
"'Attack': The animal attacks apparent enemies. The character may point to a particular creature to direct the animal to attack that creature. Normally, an animal will not attack unnatural creatures (though it will defend people, guard places, and protect characters against them). Teaching an animal to be willing to attack unnatural creatures counts as two tricks."

I also just read this in the Wolf's description in the MM:
"A favorite tactic is to send a few individuals against the foe's front while the rest of the pack circles around and attacks from the flanks or rear."
Feyd Rautha
11-10-03, 11:46 AM Originally posted by Gawynn Glenblade
I've been reading a lot on Animal Companions, from the Handle Animal skill in the PHB, to the Animal Companions side bar in the DMG, to the Animal Companion section in MotW, to the additional tricks describe in Arms & Equipment Guide.

From the DMG:
"'Attack': The animal attacks apparent enemies. The character may point to a particular creature to direct the animal to attack that creature. Normally, an animal will not attack unnatural creatures (though it will defend people, guard places, and protect characters against them). Teaching an animal to be willing to attack unnatural creatures counts as two tricks."

I also just read this in the Wolf's description in the MM:
"A favorite tactic is to send a few individuals against the foe's front while the rest of the pack circles around and attacks from the flanks or rear."

*nods* Yeah...sounds like you are on track. I agree with your decision to allow the wolf to flank and not let the horse flank (if you hadn't already guessed). I do say that you should allow the attack command for the ranger to present some special benefit specific to the creature. For medium sized "pack" animals a flanking situation would be a perfect answer... For a large herd animal using it's size would be a good answer. Maybe allow the horse an automatic overrun when sent to attack by itself or the aforementioned rear kick attack. Just some thoughts to keep your ranger out of a tizzy.

Feyd

Edit: Oh..and if the horse overruns on his starting round he will be on the opposite side of the creature anyway and can present a flanking situation.
Derren S.
11-10-03, 12:39 PM And my sugestion is.

You (dm) play the animal companions/familiars/pets/NPCs/...
Mit Ratten Lebt
11-10-03, 01:15 PM If he is skilled as a rider, I see not reason why not. He should be able to direct his horse in and out of combat in order to avoid such problems.

If the horse is not broken or he is not a skilled rider, then I'd have a problem with it.
Feyd Rautha
11-10-03, 01:26 PM Originally posted by Mit Ratten Lebt
If he is skilled as a rider, I see not reason why not. He should be able to direct his horse in and out of combat in order to avoid such problems.

If the horse is not broken or he is not a skilled rider, then I'd have a problem with it.

I think the issue at hand is the fact that he's not riding it he's dismounting and using it as a standard animal companion.
Gawynn Glenblade
11-10-03, 01:51 PM Correct, he's not on the horse when the horse is circling around enemy, avoiding AOOs and then flanking opposite of the character.
PenderGrass
11-10-03, 02:36 PM And my sugestion is.

You (dm) play the animal companions/familiars/pets/NPCs/...

Agreed.

The horse is NOT a PC.

Even a Wizard's familiar is subject to the DMs asigned personality/characteristics..... unless you trust the Player to do it for you - but I would still observe and intervene when needed.
xect
11-10-03, 03:21 PM First, the DM should play the animal companion, since it's still an animal of its own. Second, I just can't picture a horse fighting in a battle without being trained specifically to fight without rider.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gawynn Glenblade 11-09-03, 01:06 PM	I have a player who's character is a ranger. He recently befriended a horse using Animal Friendship. During combat he started having his horse flank and attack opponents he was attacking. Furthermore, the horse was moving around opponents in a way that he avoided Attacks of Opportunity. I told him I thought this was incredibly silly and that I really didn't like it. He brought up the fact another character (a druid) has a wolf companion that has flanked and avoided AOOs. I countered that saying that a wolf is an animal that is born and raised to hunt. It kills its food. A horse is not a hunting animal. It eats grass. A warhorse is trained to be aggressive, yes, but avoiding AOO and flanking? It just seems ridiculous to me. So I started looking into the various rules on Animal Companions. As far as I can tell, he's going to have to spend at least 2 months teaching the warhorse some of the tricks he wants it to know. So as of right now (shortly after buying the horse and being on an adventure) he would have had no time to train the horse to do anything. On the other hand, the druid has had his wolf since 1st level so I could argue that he taught the wolf these tricks before meeting the rest of the party. I still find it silly that the warhorse is flanking and avoiding AOO, but what do you think would be a feasible requirement (using Handle Animal to teach it tricks) for allowing his horse to be doing these things? I should add that we're currently playing with the 3.0 rules, if that makes any difference.
tarkin 11-09-03, 01:35 PM	That is debatable. All avoiding AoO is avoiding getting hit. Any animal would do that naturally. I would rule he would have to train it to not avoid AOO's. Flanking is a bit more complex, but I agree that hunting/predator creatures shold do it naturally, and that herbivores should not. But a trained Warhorse shold typically be trained to do it along with the other basic things it was trained to do. If he bought the horse it as a "warhorse" instead of a "riding horse" it should already know that.
Gawynn Glenblade 11-10-03, 12:26 AM	Anybody else have any insight/suggestions?
Old_One 11-10-03, 05:15 AM	Animals arre animals. The horse would not fight at all. If the ranger got hit the horse might get angry and atack the enemy but just that one. Only after he learns his horse "tricks" would the horse atack with tactics in mind and even then only if told so. Now there is realy no limits to what you can teach an animal companion with the right handle animal DC. You could teach him to flnak with a DC20, to performe aid another with a DC26, or to jump up and down and perform trick with flaming blades with DC58 but thats just silly, or is it hmmm? :D Now all of the above DCs are just of the top of my head I would have to check the skils description to be more acurate...
Rabe 11-10-03, 09:26 AM	Here is my ruling for such things: - Horses do not fight unless attacked, and they try to run first. - If it is a trained warhorse, it will fight when attacked first. - If it is a trained warhorse and has a rider, who can actually ride, he can get it to attack in the usual rule frame for this. Druids can achieve more, if they are using the magic for that purpose (like Awaken, Speak with Animals, etc.), but they still cannot bring a herbivore to act like a predator in my game. Just because some low HD animals have gotten nice combat stats in the MM does not mean, that they are easily accessible bonus attacks and combat bonuses themselves. They had to give them some plausible stats, but thats all. Rabe
Feyd Rautha 11-10-03, 10:07 AM	Read the entry for the attack command (you might have to refer to the 3.0 book since I think they removed the text in 3.5). IIRC the animal companion attacks the foe it is directed to attack with no flair or specials...yes even wolves. I don't know what happened to this text in 3.5, but if you need the 3.0 text as to what each trick covered within it means then I can e-mail it or post it. Also, look at MotW because there are extra tricks in there that I'm sure the characters will want. Moving on from that, it sounds like you don't have a very tight reign on the training of animals (or your players are misleading you). They have to choose the tricks and they can't change. Most of the time you don't have to train animal companions as the "magic" of it means they pick up whatever tricks you want them to as soon as you get them, but for other animals the handle animal checks and training times are necessary. Regardless, here's a list of things that the players might want to consider using tricks for: -Animals will not attack unnatural creatures (werewolves, undead, aberrations) without TWO attack tricks. -Learning to be ridden isn't a trick in most campaigns for horses and riding dogs (unless you feel the need to hose the PC's on a trick for their horses), but the ability to wear barding IS a trick that must be learned. -Animals will not go underground without a trick (which is in MotW). -Animals cannot aid attack, aid defense, guard another, guard a spot, guard the PC, or be called off from killing a foe when told to attack it without appropriate tricks. Gawynn, I strongly recommend reading Masters of the Wild and the 3.0 DMG section on animal companions. Both of them will show you that having an animal companion is NOT the same as having an NPC fighter to do what you want. You need to require a trick (at your discretion since it isn't in the core rulebooks or even MotW) that would allow the PC's in question to give a "flank" command in order to flank and attack. Personally, I would say it's too complex for an animal intelligence, but your explanation of the wolf does make some sense since that is how wolves fight. This also means that you would have to think up "horse specific" tricks to make up for the fact that the wolf can learn the "flank" trick. Might I suggest a "donkey kick" trick where the horse does a 2d6+6 back kick option as an attack to the rear? It doesn't (nor will it) exist in DnD b/c they don't have facing, but DM's aren't constrained by everything WotC says. Hope that helps and post up more if you have questions or need to clarify more, Feyd
Gawynn Glenblade 11-10-03, 10:37 AM	I've been reading a lot on Animal Companions, from the Handle Animal skill in the PHB, to the Animal Companions side bar in the DMG, to the Animal Companion section in MotW, to the additional tricks describe in Arms & Equipment Guide. From the DMG: "'Attack': The animal attacks apparent enemies. The character may point to a particular creature to direct the animal to attack that creature. Normally, an animal will not attack unnatural creatures (though it will defend people, guard places, and protect characters against them). Teaching an animal to be willing to attack unnatural creatures counts as two tricks." I also just read this in the Wolf's description in the MM: "A favorite tactic is to send a few individuals against the foe's front while the rest of the pack circles around and attacks from the flanks or rear."
Feyd Rautha 11-10-03, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Gawynn Glenblade I've been reading a lot on Animal Companions, from the Handle Animal skill in the PHB, to the Animal Companions side bar in the DMG, to the Animal Companion section in MotW, to the additional tricks describe in Arms & Equipment Guide. From the DMG: "'Attack': The animal attacks apparent enemies. The character may point to a particular creature to direct the animal to attack that creature. Normally, an animal will not attack unnatural creatures (though it will defend people, guard places, and protect characters against them). Teaching an animal to be willing to attack unnatural creatures counts as two tricks." I also just read this in the Wolf's description in the MM: "A favorite tactic is to send a few individuals against the foe's front while the rest of the pack circles around and attacks from the flanks or rear." nods Yeah...sounds like you are on track. I agree with your decision to allow the wolf to flank and not let the horse flank (if you hadn't already guessed). I do say that you should allow the attack command for the ranger to present some special benefit specific to the creature. For medium sized "pack" animals a flanking situation would be a perfect answer... For a large herd animal using it's size would be a good answer. Maybe allow the horse an automatic overrun when sent to attack by itself or the aforementioned rear kick attack. Just some thoughts to keep your ranger out of a tizzy. Feyd Edit: Oh..and if the horse overruns on his starting round he will be on the opposite side of the creature anyway and can present a flanking situation.
Derren S. 11-10-03, 12:39 PM	And my sugestion is. You (dm) play the animal companions/familiars/pets/NPCs/...
Mit Ratten Lebt 11-10-03, 01:15 PM	If he is skilled as a rider, I see not reason why not. He should be able to direct his horse in and out of combat in order to avoid such problems. If the horse is not broken or he is not a skilled rider, then I'd have a problem with it.
Feyd Rautha 11-10-03, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Mit Ratten Lebt If he is skilled as a rider, I see not reason why not. He should be able to direct his horse in and out of combat in order to avoid such problems. If the horse is not broken or he is not a skilled rider, then I'd have a problem with it. I think the issue at hand is the fact that he's not riding it he's dismounting and using it as a standard animal companion.
Gawynn Glenblade 11-10-03, 01:51 PM	Correct, he's not on the horse when the horse is circling around enemy, avoiding AOOs and then flanking opposite of the character.
PenderGrass 11-10-03, 02:36 PM	And my sugestion is. You (dm) play the animal companions/familiars/pets/NPCs/... Agreed. The horse is NOT a PC. Even a Wizard's familiar is subject to the DMs asigned personality/characteristics..... unless you trust the Player to do it for you - but I would still observe and intervene when needed.
xect 11-10-03, 03:21 PM	First, the DM should play the animal companion, since it's still an animal of its own. Second, I just can't picture a horse fighting in a battle without being trained specifically to fight without rider.