Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Noriass Gato 06-03-04, 01:14 PM	Hi. Just a request for ideas how to keep a campaign going on and not tur it into easy cannonfodder and not cut the rogues off thier fun as well. The land is mostly human, with otehr races a small minority. Party is mostly elves. Two of them - rogues, two clerics. There's fighter as well. There are two more players, that just lost their PC, and they plan to get wizard and his Devoted defender. Between themselves, they usually beat any hig-level human NPC by flanking and sneaking, ang they are pretty effective against hordes of low level NPC as well, sniping them from cover. I have sent high level single NPC, some pairs of NPC, mixed groups, and hrdes of gnolls. orcs and goblins at them, and lately the ease they deal with appropriate Level CR leaves me baffled... As well, nobody is saying much, but i can feel, rest of party sometimes feel lost out. I know, that there are options to make sneaking against opponents a non-possible, but you have to agree, most of them do not fit in fairly civilized lands. Rogue of same level - parts seems pretty hot on not taking prisoners and not letting anyone escape. Constructs - costs are prohibitive, and they are rare Undeads - they got some already, party has two clerics, and undeads are history as soon as clerics get to turn them or just smash them to bits. Armor of fortification... Thats still a bit high for them, given that they most probably will get the armor in spoils. The party is ot in wilderness currenlty, fighting athachs, Chuuls and all types of aberrations, and looking for source of this "iunfection", but i'd like to get them back to civilisation - and they want it as well
Salla 06-03-04, 01:36 PM	Don't forget Elementals, Oozes, and Plants for 'immune to sneak attack' monsters as well. If you want to put the Fear of Jeebus into your flank-happy rogues, throw in an opponent with the Elusive Target feat from Complete Warrior. The first attack from the rogue that the Elusive one has his Dodge set against will strike the opposite rogue as if flat-footed, including dealing Sneak Attack damage. Other good Sneak Attack squelchers include: 1. Concealment (displacement, invisibility) 2. Narrow confines (if your villain has his back to a corner, he can't be flanked) 3. Flight. 4. Squishing the poor-AC poor-HP rogues before they get close enough. Also, recall that using Hide after the fight has already started is pretty much pointless. There is no facing in D&D; everybody, effectively, has 360 degree vision. So, if the gnoll sees the rogue hide behind that tree, he knows the rogue is there. If the rogue pops out and takes a shot, the gnoll is aware and suffers no Sneak Attack damage. Hide is great for creating Surprise Rounds, but after the fight's started, it's not so useful. I can't find it documented, but I recall reading, on these boards, a 'sniping' rule where, if you can make a Hide check vs target's spot at -20, you can get off a single Sneak Attack shot then duck back behind the thing you're hiding behind.
Decepticons 06-03-04, 01:40 PM	Keep in mind that some PC classes can negate sneak attacks from flanking, like Barbarians at 5th level. Secondly, you may have to draw up some specific tailored encounters. Use a Barbarian of 5th+ level (whatever is suitable for your party) and a few cronies. If the Barbarian notices the rogues killing his flunkies, he becomes enraged and directs all his attacks agains the rogues. Perhaps a 5th level Barbarian, 3rd level sorceror and some gnolls? I don't know what's appropriate for your campaign, so I won't get into detailed suggestions. Give NPC's feats like Alterness and Skill Focus (Spot). Additionally, give higher level NPCs feats like Sunder or Improved Dissarm. A rogue becomes a lot less nasty without a pig sticker. A human Fighter is really good for this because they can stack up a TON of feats in just a few levels. I also employ a "no cover" rule. If there's no place to sneak/hide, the rogue (and everyone else) can't hide. How about you PC's get ambushed in forest clearning? An appropriate number of gnolls on both side of the clearing, each backed up by an appropriate level sorceror or adept? Force the party to split up to deal with the crossfire.
Sid_Patterson 06-03-04, 02:59 PM	Don't make NPCs stupid. A high level NPC is going to use the same sort of tactics that your smart players will. If they're fighting dumb orcs then so be it, a victory is at hand. If they're fighting a clever group of rogues leading a couple of trolls, I think your party should be in grave peril. Use tactics. Don't assume that PCs are the only ones with a clue.
Stuntman 06-04-04, 01:46 AM	A great way of foiling the clerics with undead is to use the enemy cleric to bolster them and to use desecrate. I did that against my party that has two clerics and it made the encounter with skeletons and zombies much more interesting. Also, if you have a character with improved uncanny dodge, you end up negating the sneak attacks.
Lucid dark Child 06-04-04, 01:59 AM	have you tried vampires? That +4 to turn resistance is nasty against clerics and you can't sneak attack them. Have you tried an air born assult? Like say a dragon strafing them? Perhaps some rogues with improved invisblity on them might do the trick.:angel:
Naeron 06-04-04, 06:32 AM	If the sniping and flanking is allowing the PC's to overpower correct EL encounters I would suggest that you read up on those sections of the book to make sure you are applying all the rules correctly. With Flanking remember that a Rogue has a lower BAB so will not get as many hits against high AC targets. Also their generally lower AC and HP's means they are vulnerable to the response attacks the next round. It is entirely logical for intelligent monsters to concentrate on flattening a flanker. Monsters can also use the terrain and formations to limit their ability to be flanked. Hide can only be used if there actually is something to hide behind, and you cannot hide if observed (unless they have the Hide in Plain sight ability). Using Hide is a move action and hiding after shooting (remember ranged sneak attack only works within 30ft) is at a -20 penalty which should make them easy to see.