Abandoned Cities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abandoned Cities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paradisio
05-10-05, 09:23 PM Well, this came up last session. Basically a city was overrun with creatures and people either fled rapidly or died. Of course, PCs want to loot the place up now. I really couldn't come up with a logical argument that everything would be gone since it was only abandoned for a couple of days.

Whats a DM to do?
Lord Ian Stark
05-10-05, 09:25 PM What kind of creatures came in and killed the people?
Nightgaunt
05-10-05, 09:28 PM Tell them to feel free. Any idea how long it would take to salvage any useful stuff out of the town? And I do hope your PC's have appraise or they will end up with costume jewelry at best.

Also if there is a particularly nice shop just have it protected by something logical for the shop. (For instance a magical item shop, if you have those, would probably be highly defended even after the resident was long gone).

In addition consider the ramifications of looting on the friends and family of the victims or on the townspeople that lived. The characters may be temporarily wealthy but they will also be reviled and hated as thieves and brigands.

----Speaking of which-----
Don't forget that other thieves and brigands are likely to descend upon the town as soon as the rampaging hordes go through. I don't know what kind of creatures you speak of, but would any still be left behind. I think that along with the rest of the ideas should be pretty solid.
Paradisio
05-10-05, 09:28 PM Elementals and other creatures from the plane of earth, and other petrifying magical beasts... nothing I really see as desiring the items.

Edit: To expand, the area became increasingly hostile, and pretty much turned into a desert, not to mention there were some modified earth elementals who calcified pretty much anything in the area, including the players and some bandits and assassins after the party.

In the end, their will be rammifications. They weren't given permission, and since they didn't defeat all the enemies, the people will need those items to retake the land from the remainder of the enemy. I have to wonder, is this kind of looting evil? They said they needed it to defeat the enemy... which they really didn't. They didn't get anything that spectacular, just some a couple potions, scrolls and minor amulets. On the other hand, they still have a chance to return it before they leave the lands.
Lord Ian Stark
05-10-05, 09:29 PM Elementals and other creatures from the plane of earth, and other petrifying magical beasts... nothing I really see as desiring the items.

Well then I think you have the answer to your question. ;)

How big was the city?
myeviltwin
05-10-05, 09:32 PM Lord Ian has the right idea here. If the creatures arre intelligent then they probably made off with anything portable of any value, and probably left some behind them in the city. Even if they aren't intelligent, some of them probably followed the fleeing people and others stayed behind, even if it was only the wonded.

[Edit:] I... post... slowly.
Marros
05-10-05, 09:46 PM (warning: LONG POST)

Wow, you've put yourself in a tough spot. First of all, I don't even know where to begin on the calculation of total wealth of a town. While the first steps are fairly simple:

Population / 10 x Gold Piece Limit = Total Product Value/Total Ready Cash

According to the section of the DM guide on towns (page 137), this value applies not only to gold, but to every item in the community. Not only does a town have 1000 GP, but 1000 gp worth of longswords, 1000 GP worth of shrtswords, 1000 GP worth of rope, 1000 GP worth of caltrops, 1000 GP worth of Alchemists fire, 1000 GP worth of pretty much any frickin thing.

Here's how I would handle it. I would calculate the total wealth in gold/items as the equation states. I would have it apply to more or less anything in the community. And, if the PCs wanted to loot anything, I would ask them exactly where and how they were doing it. I would spread out the items too. Put only CP in peasant homes (which number in thousands) and only a few GP in the inns or shops (which are much less in number). Some locations might even require search or open lock checks to get the good stuff. Toss in a few traps too.

Or, if they tried to carry off all of the weapons from the store, I would records every last pound and count it against teir carrying capacity. It adds up, and unless they have a vehicle, they'll not be able to carry much (in GP value, anyway).

And, keep very careful track of the time while they are doing this. Looting a frickin city sounds like it would take forever. Forever sounds like enough time for the creatures to come back, or some other looting NPC adventurers to ambush them.

Even if these tactics work, the party may get away with a huge amount of treasure at no personal risk. This seems like a problem, but it is easily solved. The total treasure value they find in the town and take with them, deduct that value from treasure granted in future encounters. That way, they still follow the wealth by level guidelines.

The game continues to be realistic, without causing any problems for you and keeping your players happy. You may want to handle this differently, such as some other looters gettign there first, or reducing the amount of gold, etc. but do not, I repeat DO NOT just suddenly decree that everything of value is gone. The "Because I'm DM" excuse never works.

Hope I covered everything. Good luck!
Marros
05-10-05, 09:48 PM They didn't get anything that spectacular, just some a couple potions, scrolls and minor amulets.

What, so the looting has laready happened? grr... I hate posting long things for nothing.
Paradisio
05-10-05, 09:50 PM We'll it was just incase the situation ever arose again.

I appreciate the post never the less, the didn't really rob all the houses, just a few stores. Although they did try to justify it... which I really didn't believe.

I might as well ask this, would a store ever have a magic item, in stock? Or would they just make them on request or whatnot?
Nightgaunt
05-10-05, 09:58 PM In large cities or under certain circumstances I have people who sell magical items. Often these are items sold from other adventurers or ill-gotten gains that have been fenced off to the underground. They are rarily cheap, and I consider it fairly rare but it is really a question of the magic level of the campaign world.

My world is fairly high magic right now so such stores are not unheard of, but outside of potions or scrolls they deal mostly with 'used' magical goods.

In addition in one city I have an Auction House that occasionally sells magical items.
Marros
05-10-05, 10:00 PM Thanks.

And for your new question, it depends. If it was a small town, probably no. A small village would be filled with minor spell casters who, while they have the feats, cannot afford to make any magic item they please. They could not afford to stock a big inventory, and there is a chance nobody will buy those items (small town do not get a huge amount of commerce of adventurer quality). So, the logical thing to do is to make them upon request. By taking comissions, they can guarantee a sale (and therefore profit) at the cost of a little extra time.

In larger cities, demand goes way up (because wealthy people and adventurers are common) and becomes less of an issue. Spellcasters can make and shelve items and they can likely be sold in a few days or weeks. Why wait any longer for the money when you're sure somebody will buy them? This is also a good idea because you can only craft one magic item at a time, therefore commisions become less effective. Finally, if one caster starts selling items "over-the-counter", they all will, not wanting to be driven out of business.
CzarGarrett
05-11-05, 09:23 AM I'd definately make them work for it.

Sure, a bunch of Earth Elementals and stuff came in and wrecked the place. But what about sewers and crypts? Nearby villages? You could have a bunch of wererats or a small group of trolls move into various areas of the now abandoned city. Nearby villages, if they weren't on the best of terms with this major city, would have looters even before it was entirely safe to go into the city. Plus there'd definately be other adventurers checking the place out. And maybe word spread quickly enough that a local tribe of Orcs has decided to try and take control over the city.
High Octane
05-11-05, 09:39 AM Well, this came up last session. Basically a city was overrun with creatures and people either fled rapidly or died. Of course, PCs want to loot the place up now. I really couldn't come up with a logical argument that everything would be gone since it was only abandoned for a couple of days.

Whats a DM to do?

A while ago, my paladin returned from another dimension to his (and the rest of the party's) home city, which was one of the largest in the world.

It was abandonned. There was nothing living left. The town had been first ravaged then abandonned by a plague that killed all of my paladins family except one brother. (The rest of his brothers and father died in the plague, mother died of grief.)

That was one HELL of a roleplaying experience. We ended up wandering the town trying to find out what happened.

It got kind of weird when the giant statue of the deity the city was named after came alive, asked what happened to her children (People of the city), then personally geased us to restore the city and destroy those responsible. (What was REALLY weird was, we were levels 3-4!)

It should be quiet and freaky walking around. I would say approximately 20% of the city's wealth would still be there, but it would take days of searching and there would be tons of encounters.

Think Resident Evil, with Elementals instead of Undead.
ForgottenImmortal
05-11-05, 10:34 AM Wererat that lived underground come out and attack the party. Everone hates wererats and when your party get dieased they will truely be hated by everyone.
krichaiushii
05-11-05, 07:00 PM Critters from the Elemental Plane of Earth, like Xorn and Xaren (have Xaren been converted to 3.x?)?

They eat gems and metals as food. Generally speaking, the more rare and valuable it is gp-wise, the more tasty and likely to be eaten it is.

Abandoned cook fires and kicked over lamps may have started fires which grew out of control, burning portions of the city.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 05-10-05, 09:23 PM	Well, this came up last session. Basically a city was overrun with creatures and people either fled rapidly or died. Of course, PCs want to loot the place up now. I really couldn't come up with a logical argument that everything would be gone since it was only abandoned for a couple of days. Whats a DM to do?
Lord Ian Stark 05-10-05, 09:25 PM	What kind of creatures came in and killed the people?
Nightgaunt 05-10-05, 09:28 PM	Tell them to feel free. Any idea how long it would take to salvage any useful stuff out of the town? And I do hope your PC's have appraise or they will end up with costume jewelry at best. Also if there is a particularly nice shop just have it protected by something logical for the shop. (For instance a magical item shop, if you have those, would probably be highly defended even after the resident was long gone). In addition consider the ramifications of looting on the friends and family of the victims or on the townspeople that lived. The characters may be temporarily wealthy but they will also be reviled and hated as thieves and brigands. ----Speaking of which----- Don't forget that other thieves and brigands are likely to descend upon the town as soon as the rampaging hordes go through. I don't know what kind of creatures you speak of, but would any still be left behind. I think that along with the rest of the ideas should be pretty solid.
Paradisio 05-10-05, 09:28 PM	Elementals and other creatures from the plane of earth, and other petrifying magical beasts... nothing I really see as desiring the items. Edit: To expand, the area became increasingly hostile, and pretty much turned into a desert, not to mention there were some modified earth elementals who calcified pretty much anything in the area, including the players and some bandits and assassins after the party. In the end, their will be rammifications. They weren't given permission, and since they didn't defeat all the enemies, the people will need those items to retake the land from the remainder of the enemy. I have to wonder, is this kind of looting evil? They said they needed it to defeat the enemy... which they really didn't. They didn't get anything that spectacular, just some a couple potions, scrolls and minor amulets. On the other hand, they still have a chance to return it before they leave the lands.
Lord Ian Stark 05-10-05, 09:29 PM	Elementals and other creatures from the plane of earth, and other petrifying magical beasts... nothing I really see as desiring the items. Well then I think you have the answer to your question. ;) How big was the city?
myeviltwin 05-10-05, 09:32 PM	Lord Ian has the right idea here. If the creatures arre intelligent then they probably made off with anything portable of any value, and probably left some behind them in the city. Even if they aren't intelligent, some of them probably followed the fleeing people and others stayed behind, even if it was only the wonded. [Edit:] I... post... slowly.
Marros 05-10-05, 09:46 PM	(warning: LONG POST) Wow, you've put yourself in a tough spot. First of all, I don't even know where to begin on the calculation of total wealth of a town. While the first steps are fairly simple: Population / 10 x Gold Piece Limit = Total Product Value/Total Ready Cash According to the section of the DM guide on towns (page 137), this value applies not only to gold, but to every item in the community. Not only does a town have 1000 GP, but 1000 gp worth of longswords, 1000 GP worth of shrtswords, 1000 GP worth of rope, 1000 GP worth of caltrops, 1000 GP worth of Alchemists fire, 1000 GP worth of pretty much any frickin thing. Here's how I would handle it. I would calculate the total wealth in gold/items as the equation states. I would have it apply to more or less anything in the community. And, if the PCs wanted to loot anything, I would ask them exactly where and how they were doing it. I would spread out the items too. Put only CP in peasant homes (which number in thousands) and only a few GP in the inns or shops (which are much less in number). Some locations might even require search or open lock checks to get the good stuff. Toss in a few traps too. Or, if they tried to carry off all of the weapons from the store, I would records every last pound and count it against teir carrying capacity. It adds up, and unless they have a vehicle, they'll not be able to carry much (in GP value, anyway). And, keep very careful track of the time while they are doing this. Looting a frickin city sounds like it would take forever. Forever sounds like enough time for the creatures to come back, or some other looting NPC adventurers to ambush them. Even if these tactics work, the party may get away with a huge amount of treasure at no personal risk. This seems like a problem, but it is easily solved. The total treasure value they find in the town and take with them, deduct that value from treasure granted in future encounters. That way, they still follow the wealth by level guidelines. The game continues to be realistic, without causing any problems for you and keeping your players happy. You may want to handle this differently, such as some other looters gettign there first, or reducing the amount of gold, etc. but do not, I repeat DO NOT just suddenly decree that everything of value is gone. The "Because I'm DM" excuse never works. Hope I covered everything. Good luck!
Marros 05-10-05, 09:48 PM	They didn't get anything that spectacular, just some a couple potions, scrolls and minor amulets. What, so the looting has laready happened? grr... I hate posting long things for nothing.
Paradisio 05-10-05, 09:50 PM	We'll it was just incase the situation ever arose again. I appreciate the post never the less, the didn't really rob all the houses, just a few stores. Although they did try to justify it... which I really didn't believe. I might as well ask this, would a store ever have a magic item, in stock? Or would they just make them on request or whatnot?
Nightgaunt 05-10-05, 09:58 PM	In large cities or under certain circumstances I have people who sell magical items. Often these are items sold from other adventurers or ill-gotten gains that have been fenced off to the underground. They are rarily cheap, and I consider it fairly rare but it is really a question of the magic level of the campaign world. My world is fairly high magic right now so such stores are not unheard of, but outside of potions or scrolls they deal mostly with 'used' magical goods. In addition in one city I have an Auction House that occasionally sells magical items.
Marros 05-10-05, 10:00 PM	Thanks. And for your new question, it depends. If it was a small town, probably no. A small village would be filled with minor spell casters who, while they have the feats, cannot afford to make any magic item they please. They could not afford to stock a big inventory, and there is a chance nobody will buy those items (small town do not get a huge amount of commerce of adventurer quality). So, the logical thing to do is to make them upon request. By taking comissions, they can guarantee a sale (and therefore profit) at the cost of a little extra time. In larger cities, demand goes way up (because wealthy people and adventurers are common) and becomes less of an issue. Spellcasters can make and shelve items and they can likely be sold in a few days or weeks. Why wait any longer for the money when you're sure somebody will buy them? This is also a good idea because you can only craft one magic item at a time, therefore commisions become less effective. Finally, if one caster starts selling items "over-the-counter", they all will, not wanting to be driven out of business.
CzarGarrett 05-11-05, 09:23 AM	I'd definately make them work for it. Sure, a bunch of Earth Elementals and stuff came in and wrecked the place. But what about sewers and crypts? Nearby villages? You could have a bunch of wererats or a small group of trolls move into various areas of the now abandoned city. Nearby villages, if they weren't on the best of terms with this major city, would have looters even before it was entirely safe to go into the city. Plus there'd definately be other adventurers checking the place out. And maybe word spread quickly enough that a local tribe of Orcs has decided to try and take control over the city.
High Octane 05-11-05, 09:39 AM	Well, this came up last session. Basically a city was overrun with creatures and people either fled rapidly or died. Of course, PCs want to loot the place up now. I really couldn't come up with a logical argument that everything would be gone since it was only abandoned for a couple of days. Whats a DM to do? A while ago, my paladin returned from another dimension to his (and the rest of the party's) home city, which was one of the largest in the world. It was abandonned. There was nothing living left. The town had been first ravaged then abandonned by a plague that killed all of my paladins family except one brother. (The rest of his brothers and father died in the plague, mother died of grief.) That was one HELL of a roleplaying experience. We ended up wandering the town trying to find out what happened. It got kind of weird when the giant statue of the deity the city was named after came alive, asked what happened to her children (People of the city), then personally geased us to restore the city and destroy those responsible. (What was REALLY weird was, we were levels 3-4!) It should be quiet and freaky walking around. I would say approximately 20% of the city's wealth would still be there, but it would take days of searching and there would be tons of encounters. Think Resident Evil, with Elementals instead of Undead.
ForgottenImmortal 05-11-05, 10:34 AM	Wererat that lived underground come out and attack the party. Everone hates wererats and when your party get dieased they will truely be hated by everyone.
krichaiushii 05-11-05, 07:00 PM	Critters from the Elemental Plane of Earth, like Xorn and Xaren (have Xaren been converted to 3.x?)? They eat gems and metals as food. Generally speaking, the more rare and valuable it is gp-wise, the more tasty and likely to be eaten it is. Abandoned cook fires and kicked over lamps may have started fires which grew out of control, burning portions of the city.