Ability Bonuses for a Blue Dragon built like a PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Bonuses for a Blue Dragon built like a PC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kalithor
03-14-05, 07:06 PM I wanted to build a blue dragon with the same mechanics that you would use for making a PC/NPC. Particularly rolling stats for him, but I didn't know if there were a listing for the base ability increases on dragons or anything. If not, I suppose I'll wing it, but I wanted to make a juvenile with a few Sorcerer levels.
Ultimately, it will serve as a mount to a fallen Hound Archon gone blackguard, rather than the Bronze dragons they usually ride. I can't give too many more details cuz one of my more problematic players likes to browse the boards and unwap my plans before Christmas, so to speak.
So if anybody knows a specific book that would have this, or just knows it off the top of their head, pass it to me. Ideally, I want to max out its Charisma, obviously, but within reason for its age/type. Thanks
Morwen
03-14-05, 07:26 PM For all monster entries, you find the ability score modifier by subtracting 10 from even-numbered scores, and 11 from odd-numbered scores.

For a Juvenile Blue Dragon, the modifiers are:
STR +8, DEX +0, CON +6, INT +4, WIS +4, CHA +4.
FriendoftheDork
03-14-05, 07:30 PM morwen beat me to it.

Dragons usually advance by HD instead of levels, but do what you want. Keep in mind though that dragon HD are the best in the game and far better than sorcerer levels. Dragons also gets sorcerer spells as they grow older.
Kalithor
03-14-05, 07:31 PM Thanks for the help. That's exactly what I needed, but it also opens another question... Where did you get this formula? I was skimming the DMG and Draconomicon, but didn't see anything like that. you got a page number you'd care to share?
Thanks to you too Dorkfriend... I was aware of what you mentioned, and thats exactly why I want to add the Sorcerer levels (my PCs are aware of it too, and I need to have a suprise up my sleeve). The main thing is just that I want to exemplify it as an advanced caster for its age and type. I wish I could tell you guys more, cuz I feel like even though its an unavoidably powerful build, the theme of it is really cool. I'll have to share it in a week or two on this same thread after I've introduced it to the PC's. This hound archon is the beginnings of a BBEG, so....
Morwen
03-14-05, 07:34 PM Thanks for the help. That's exactly what I needed, but it also opens another question... Where did you get this formula? I was skimming the DMG and Draconomicon, but didn't see anything like that. you got a page number you'd care to share?
It's in the Monster Manual, page 7, under Abilities.
Sildatorak
03-14-05, 08:38 PM You should also note that it will not get ability score increases for its racial hit dice (they're already built in), but it will get the standard +1 stat/4 levels for the sorcerer levels it takes.
Mirikon
03-14-05, 10:32 PM Another thing. Dragons get Racial HD by age. The Dragons as Player Characters section of Draconomicon gives a guideline for 'dragon levels' based on age. Basically, when you get to, say, 100 years or whatever, your next level is a dragon level, where you get that racial HD, etc. Some dragon levels are blank, to help with the LA. Any other levels you'd be getting during that time would be PC class levels. And as a note, a Dragon Warlock would kick ass.
astute1
03-14-05, 11:02 PM I think a dragon sorcerer would be better. A dragon's racial spellcasting ability stacks with any levels of sorcerer it might have. A young dragon with unusually high spellcasting ability might be an unpleasant surprise for a party. The additional sorcerer levels should be +2 levels/CR increase, since it isn't the dragon's "primary" class.
Sildatorak
03-15-05, 12:29 AM The additional sorcerer levels should be +2 levels/CR increase, since it isn't the dragon's "primary" class.

I'm not 100% sure on that. The dragon can work well as either a melee combatant or a blaster type when it flies around and breathes on the party every 1d4 rounds. I can see buff spells really enhancing the first and blast spells really enhancing the second.

My advice is to run a few test combats to see which works better for you. I initially thought that adding 4 sorcer levels to a troll would bump it from CR 5 to CR 7, but after testing I found that CR 9 was more appropriate.

A mirror-imaged, mage armored, shielded troll is a nasty opponent, and I think that a mirror-imaged, mage armored, shielded dragon that flies around breathing lightning every 1d4 rounds and shooting fireballs during the other rounds could be really nasty.
Kalithor
03-15-05, 12:36 AM I decided to go with the Bronze dragon instead... if you guys would care to, check out the post I made with my other name titled "Another dragon/template question". Lemme know what ya think, story and all, if you would be so kind. :D

Edit- as far as Sorc spells I gave it, most are outta the Draconomicon. For example, scintillating scales, dispelling breath, and such. I also gave it spells like waterbreathing more for roleplaying, cuz it could cast it on others to take prisoners/friends to its ocean lair. I must admit though, the idea of an invisible dragon with scintillating scales cast and full plate barding looks aweful tough on paper over here.
I also left a few spells to reflect its days as a good guy serving a paladin, such as rebuking breath and hide from undead.
weasel fierce
03-15-05, 04:08 AM Is this an NPC ? In which case, you dont need to worry about what its /supposed/ to have. Just give it what will make sense in your campaign, and to challenge your characters
Kalithor
03-15-05, 08:20 AM Yeah, its "THE" NPC for this current campaign, but I still want to try and be as legally astute as possible cuz my players are more whiney than most. The other night they fought an allip (they're a party of 4th lev. dwarves, and even the mage has a 20 Con) and one of them just about stormed away from the table cuz he thought the challenge was inapproprately hard. So, if I have all my ducks in a row, I may not minimize the wah-wah's, but at least I don't have to feel they're legit.
weasel fierce
03-15-05, 02:05 PM Ow, sounds like a demanding bunch of guys. They'd hate me as a DM :D

Good luck with it though. Sounds like it'll end up a fun encounter
ShadowDragon8685
03-15-05, 02:20 PM Well, a general point of advice. Dragons don't ever get any ability increases in Dexterity. So if you manage to roll or point-buy up a Dragon with a high Dex, he'll be ahead of the game for AC.
Merestil Haye
03-15-05, 02:27 PM I think a dragon sorcerer would be better. A dragon's racial spellcasting ability stacks with any levels of sorcerer it might have. A young dragon with unusually high spellcasting ability might be an unpleasant surprise for a party. The additional sorcerer levels should be +2 levels/CR increase, since it isn't the dragon's "primary" class.I was looking at these rules yesterday evening (MM p 294), so I know this is not the case.

If a monster casts spells as a character of a certain class (and juvenile bronzes and blues both do cast as a sorcerer) additional levels in that class increase CR by 1 per added level. If they do not they increase CR by 1 per 2 added levels until the added class levels equal or exceed the creature's racial Hit Dice.

Not straightforward but simple enough once you worrk it out.

Hope that helps.
Kalithor
03-15-05, 03:40 PM Yeah, I knew not to give more than a 10 Dex, and also not to increase stats for hit die. I put the point for 4th lev of Sorcerer on there though, as allowed.
ShadowDragon8685
03-15-05, 03:47 PM Kalithor, you missed my point.

I was instructing you specifically to raise his Dexterity, to give him some more AC. Not to leave it at ten. And yes, Dragons *do* gain an extra point of ability every four hit die, just like everything else.
astute1
03-15-05, 04:13 PM If a monster casts spells as a character of a certain class (and juvenile bronzes and blues both do cast as a sorcerer) additional levels in that class increase CR by 1 per added level. If they do not they increase CR by 1 per 2 added levels until the added class levels equal or exceed the creature's racial Hit Dice.
No, I mean, I see that, but dragons are built for smashing. I don't agree that sorcerer should be an associated class for them, as it is for Rakshasha. A rakshasha without spells is nothing. A dragon without spells is still really boss.

Look at it this way: A juvenile bronze dragon is a 15 HD creature with 3rd level caster ability. Adding a level of Barbarian or Fighter will make it much more effective in combat than adding a 4th level of casting ability... or even a 5th.
Sildatorak
03-15-05, 05:33 PM I was instructing you specifically to raise his Dexterity, to give him some more AC. Not to leave it at ten. And yes, Dragons *do* gain an extra point of ability every four hit die, just like everything else.

When it comes to racial hit dice, those bonuses are already figured as stat adjustments. If you're advancing a moster, then they'll get an extra stat point whenever the level is divisible by 4, but dragons already have that figured out with age categories until you get into really great wyrms.
Kalithor
03-16-05, 12:50 AM Ah, I just didn't really find it practical to give more than a 10 in dex (especially since I rolled one). Seemed like a good place to put it. However, since it also serves as a mount, I gave it mithral barding to help a little, and the scintillating scale spell too. Its AC gets pretty high.
When I say I didn't increase the abilities for additional hit die, I suppose that was a misstatement really. I just used the previously mentioned formula, to get the bonuses appropriate for a juvenile, then added to the rolls I made for it. The special mount/fiendish servant part only increased it by 2 anyway. Besides, it was quickly looking like too much, and though I find alot of it was necessary to represent all the mutations the creature has endured, I couldn't really go too much heavier on it. I almost feel guilty about the barding to tell the truth. Also, I was trying to pay attention to the part of the Draconomicon somebody mentioned above without getting bogged into the actual math.
Either way, I think it'll be a good addition. I don't really want it to be killed anyway, so much as hopefully redeemed back to goodness.
Thanks everybody for your imput though!! I really appreciate it. Also, be sure to check that other post I mentioned and tell me what ya think of the abbreviated story behind the dragon and the archon.
FriendoftheDork
03-16-05, 10:21 AM Hey, what kind of smiths make mithral barding for dragons? Celestials?
Carrick
03-16-05, 10:40 AM Hey Dork, if you read his original post, you'll see it is a fallen Hound Archon's Mount... :ayyyy!:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kalithor 03-14-05, 07:06 PM	I wanted to build a blue dragon with the same mechanics that you would use for making a PC/NPC. Particularly rolling stats for him, but I didn't know if there were a listing for the base ability increases on dragons or anything. If not, I suppose I'll wing it, but I wanted to make a juvenile with a few Sorcerer levels. Ultimately, it will serve as a mount to a fallen Hound Archon gone blackguard, rather than the Bronze dragons they usually ride. I can't give too many more details cuz one of my more problematic players likes to browse the boards and unwap my plans before Christmas, so to speak. So if anybody knows a specific book that would have this, or just knows it off the top of their head, pass it to me. Ideally, I want to max out its Charisma, obviously, but within reason for its age/type. Thanks
Morwen 03-14-05, 07:26 PM	For all monster entries, you find the ability score modifier by subtracting 10 from even-numbered scores, and 11 from odd-numbered scores. For a Juvenile Blue Dragon, the modifiers are: STR +8, DEX +0, CON +6, INT +4, WIS +4, CHA +4.
FriendoftheDork 03-14-05, 07:30 PM	morwen beat me to it. Dragons usually advance by HD instead of levels, but do what you want. Keep in mind though that dragon HD are the best in the game and far better than sorcerer levels. Dragons also gets sorcerer spells as they grow older.
Kalithor 03-14-05, 07:31 PM	Thanks for the help. That's exactly what I needed, but it also opens another question... Where did you get this formula? I was skimming the DMG and Draconomicon, but didn't see anything like that. you got a page number you'd care to share? Thanks to you too Dorkfriend... I was aware of what you mentioned, and thats exactly why I want to add the Sorcerer levels (my PCs are aware of it too, and I need to have a suprise up my sleeve). The main thing is just that I want to exemplify it as an advanced caster for its age and type. I wish I could tell you guys more, cuz I feel like even though its an unavoidably powerful build, the theme of it is really cool. I'll have to share it in a week or two on this same thread after I've introduced it to the PC's. This hound archon is the beginnings of a BBEG, so....
Morwen 03-14-05, 07:34 PM	Thanks for the help. That's exactly what I needed, but it also opens another question... Where did you get this formula? I was skimming the DMG and Draconomicon, but didn't see anything like that. you got a page number you'd care to share? It's in the Monster Manual, page 7, under Abilities.
Sildatorak 03-14-05, 08:38 PM	You should also note that it will not get ability score increases for its racial hit dice (they're already built in), but it will get the standard +1 stat/4 levels for the sorcerer levels it takes.
Mirikon 03-14-05, 10:32 PM	Another thing. Dragons get Racial HD by age. The Dragons as Player Characters section of Draconomicon gives a guideline for 'dragon levels' based on age. Basically, when you get to, say, 100 years or whatever, your next level is a dragon level, where you get that racial HD, etc. Some dragon levels are blank, to help with the LA. Any other levels you'd be getting during that time would be PC class levels. And as a note, a Dragon Warlock would kick ass.
astute1 03-14-05, 11:02 PM	I think a dragon sorcerer would be better. A dragon's racial spellcasting ability stacks with any levels of sorcerer it might have. A young dragon with unusually high spellcasting ability might be an unpleasant surprise for a party. The additional sorcerer levels should be +2 levels/CR increase, since it isn't the dragon's "primary" class.
Sildatorak 03-15-05, 12:29 AM	The additional sorcerer levels should be +2 levels/CR increase, since it isn't the dragon's "primary" class. I'm not 100% sure on that. The dragon can work well as either a melee combatant or a blaster type when it flies around and breathes on the party every 1d4 rounds. I can see buff spells really enhancing the first and blast spells really enhancing the second. My advice is to run a few test combats to see which works better for you. I initially thought that adding 4 sorcer levels to a troll would bump it from CR 5 to CR 7, but after testing I found that CR 9 was more appropriate. A mirror-imaged, mage armored, shielded troll is a nasty opponent, and I think that a mirror-imaged, mage armored, shielded dragon that flies around breathing lightning every 1d4 rounds and shooting fireballs during the other rounds could be really nasty.
Kalithor 03-15-05, 12:36 AM	I decided to go with the Bronze dragon instead... if you guys would care to, check out the post I made with my other name titled "Another dragon/template question". Lemme know what ya think, story and all, if you would be so kind. :D Edit- as far as Sorc spells I gave it, most are outta the Draconomicon. For example, scintillating scales, dispelling breath, and such. I also gave it spells like waterbreathing more for roleplaying, cuz it could cast it on others to take prisoners/friends to its ocean lair. I must admit though, the idea of an invisible dragon with scintillating scales cast and full plate barding looks aweful tough on paper over here. I also left a few spells to reflect its days as a good guy serving a paladin, such as rebuking breath and hide from undead.
weasel fierce 03-15-05, 04:08 AM	Is this an NPC ? In which case, you dont need to worry about what its /supposed/ to have. Just give it what will make sense in your campaign, and to challenge your characters
Kalithor 03-15-05, 08:20 AM	Yeah, its "THE" NPC for this current campaign, but I still want to try and be as legally astute as possible cuz my players are more whiney than most. The other night they fought an allip (they're a party of 4th lev. dwarves, and even the mage has a 20 Con) and one of them just about stormed away from the table cuz he thought the challenge was inapproprately hard. So, if I have all my ducks in a row, I may not minimize the wah-wah's, but at least I don't have to feel they're legit.
weasel fierce 03-15-05, 02:05 PM	Ow, sounds like a demanding bunch of guys. They'd hate me as a DM :D Good luck with it though. Sounds like it'll end up a fun encounter
ShadowDragon8685 03-15-05, 02:20 PM	Well, a general point of advice. Dragons don't ever get any ability increases in Dexterity. So if you manage to roll or point-buy up a Dragon with a high Dex, he'll be ahead of the game for AC.
Merestil Haye 03-15-05, 02:27 PM	I think a dragon sorcerer would be better. A dragon's racial spellcasting ability stacks with any levels of sorcerer it might have. A young dragon with unusually high spellcasting ability might be an unpleasant surprise for a party. The additional sorcerer levels should be +2 levels/CR increase, since it isn't the dragon's "primary" class.I was looking at these rules yesterday evening (MM p 294), so I know this is not the case. If a monster casts spells as a character of a certain class (and juvenile bronzes and blues both do cast as a sorcerer) additional levels in that class increase CR by 1 per added level. If they do not they increase CR by 1 per 2 added levels until the added class levels equal or exceed the creature's racial Hit Dice. Not straightforward but simple enough once you worrk it out. Hope that helps.
Kalithor 03-15-05, 03:40 PM	Yeah, I knew not to give more than a 10 Dex, and also not to increase stats for hit die. I put the point for 4th lev of Sorcerer on there though, as allowed.
ShadowDragon8685 03-15-05, 03:47 PM	Kalithor, you missed my point. I was instructing you specifically to raise his Dexterity, to give him some more AC. Not to leave it at ten. And yes, Dragons do gain an extra point of ability every four hit die, just like everything else.
astute1 03-15-05, 04:13 PM	If a monster casts spells as a character of a certain class (and juvenile bronzes and blues both do cast as a sorcerer) additional levels in that class increase CR by 1 per added level. If they do not they increase CR by 1 per 2 added levels until the added class levels equal or exceed the creature's racial Hit Dice. No, I mean, I see that, but dragons are built for smashing. I don't agree that sorcerer should be an associated class for them, as it is for Rakshasha. A rakshasha without spells is nothing. A dragon without spells is still really boss. Look at it this way: A juvenile bronze dragon is a 15 HD creature with 3rd level caster ability. Adding a level of Barbarian or Fighter will make it much more effective in combat than adding a 4th level of casting ability... or even a 5th.
Sildatorak 03-15-05, 05:33 PM	I was instructing you specifically to raise his Dexterity, to give him some more AC. Not to leave it at ten. And yes, Dragons do gain an extra point of ability every four hit die, just like everything else. When it comes to racial hit dice, those bonuses are already figured as stat adjustments. If you're advancing a moster, then they'll get an extra stat point whenever the level is divisible by 4, but dragons already have that figured out with age categories until you get into really great wyrms.
Kalithor 03-16-05, 12:50 AM	Ah, I just didn't really find it practical to give more than a 10 in dex (especially since I rolled one). Seemed like a good place to put it. However, since it also serves as a mount, I gave it mithral barding to help a little, and the scintillating scale spell too. Its AC gets pretty high. When I say I didn't increase the abilities for additional hit die, I suppose that was a misstatement really. I just used the previously mentioned formula, to get the bonuses appropriate for a juvenile, then added to the rolls I made for it. The special mount/fiendish servant part only increased it by 2 anyway. Besides, it was quickly looking like too much, and though I find alot of it was necessary to represent all the mutations the creature has endured, I couldn't really go too much heavier on it. I almost feel guilty about the barding to tell the truth. Also, I was trying to pay attention to the part of the Draconomicon somebody mentioned above without getting bogged into the actual math. Either way, I think it'll be a good addition. I don't really want it to be killed anyway, so much as hopefully redeemed back to goodness. Thanks everybody for your imput though!! I really appreciate it. Also, be sure to check that other post I mentioned and tell me what ya think of the abbreviated story behind the dragon and the archon.
FriendoftheDork 03-16-05, 10:21 AM	Hey, what kind of smiths make mithral barding for dragons? Celestials?
Carrick 03-16-05, 10:40 AM	Hey Dork, if you read his original post, you'll see it is a fallen Hound Archon's Mount... :ayyyy!: