Ability Score Generation Alternative [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Score Generation Alternative [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StoneStokes
12-16-06, 03:16 PM For the next campaign that I run, I've decided to try a new system for ability score generation. This is based on someone's suggestion in one of the other threads (sorry, I don't remember your name, and I couldn't find your post again). First, I will tell you the features that I was hoping for, then the system:

Balanced, like Point-Buy;
Organic, not total freedom (this might offend both sides of the Rolling v. Point-Buy debate);
Somewhat random, like Rolling.

This is achieved (hopefully) through the following steps:

Roll four scores, using 4d6-drop-one, and record in order on scratch paper.
Compute the Point-Buy values of these scores (less than 8 costs 0 points, even a 3), and sum the values.
If the total value is less than 30, "buy" two scores from Point-Buy using the difference. If you cannot spend all of the points, the extras are lost (no scores above 18). If the total value is 30 or more, the two "purchased" scores are both 8's.
Place the two "purchased" scores first, anywhere you want.
Place the original "rolled" scores in order (the order that you rolled them) into the remaining abilities.

A couple of comments on this system:

Exceptionally high-powered or low-powered characters are possible, but are less likely than with Rolling.
This is probably not the best system for those who are set on "Concepts." (I am usually not set on Concepts when I play, so I like this system).
This system is strongly organic, and may force players to deal with weaknesses (my philosophy is that interesting characters are interesting because of their weaknesses more than their strengths).
As DM, if a player really did not like the scores generated by this method, I would allow them to generate a second set using the same method. They should then use the second set, regardless.
I said earlier that "Concepts" people might not like this system. However, that's not to say that this method pigeon-holes anyone into a class they dislike. While experimenting with this system, most sets of scores could be developed nicely into a wide range of classes. One set would have been perfect for either a Paladin or a Wizard (imagine that). If you are interested in this system, I suggest experimenting with it first yourself before imposing it on players.
I chose 30 points for the total because my next campaign with be pretty high-powered. You could choose more or fewer points for the total as you see fit. Experiment first.
pierow37
12-16-06, 03:19 PM hey. I don't even know how point buy really works. So before i give any comments on if it is better or worse. Could you explane point buy to me?
dayrat
12-16-06, 03:41 PM For the next campaign that I run, I've decided to try a new system for ability score generation. This is based on someone's suggestion in one of the other threads (sorry, I don't remember your name, and I couldn't find your post again). First, I will tell you the features that I was hoping for, then the system:

Balanced, like Point-Buy;
Organic, not total freedom (this might offend both sides of the Rolling v. Point-Buy debate);
Somewhat random, like Rolling.

This is achieved (hopefully) through the following steps:

Roll four scores, using 4d6-drop-one, and record in order on scratch paper.
Compute the Point-Buy values of these scores (less than 8 costs 0 points, even a 3), and sum the values.
If the total value is less than 30, "buy" two scores from Point-Buy using the difference. If you cannot spend all of the points, the extras are lost (no scores above 18). If the total value is 30 or more, the two "purchased" scores are both 8's.
Place the two "purchased" scores first, anywhere you want.
Place the original "rolled" scores in order (the order that you rolled them) into the remaining abilities.

A couple of comments on this system:

Exceptionally high-powered or low-powered characters are possible, but are less likely than with Rolling.
This is probably not the best system for those who are set on "Concepts." (I am usually not set on Concepts when I play, so I like this system).
This system is strongly organic, and may force players to deal with weaknesses (my philosophy is that interesting characters are interesting because of their weaknesses more than their strengths).
As DM, if a player really did not like the scores generated by this method, I would allow them to generate a second set using the same method. They should then use the second set, regardless.
I said earlier that "Concepts" people might not like this system. However, that's not to say that this method pigeon-holes anyone into a class they dislike. While experimenting with this system, most sets of scores could be developed nicely into a wide range of classes. One set would have been perfect for either a Paladin or a Wizard (imagine that). If you are interested in this system, I suggest experimenting with it first yourself before imposing it on players.
I chose 30 points for the total because my next campaign with be pretty high-powered. You could choose more or fewer points for the total as you see fit. Experiment first.

I am assuming you wanted us to comment on your system. I think you are spending too much time on the stat generating process. I do not believe that this variation is going to add or take away form the game. So why do it?
pierow37
12-16-06, 03:43 PM Hmmm.. it seems like it would work well. it is fairly balanced, but lets them have weaknesses... I sorta like it, but i more like the Jenas Method. Probably, because I came up with it.
StoneStokes
12-16-06, 06:18 PM I am assuming you wanted us to comment on your system. I think you are spending too much time on the stat generating process. I do not believe that this variation is going to add or take away form the game. So why do it?

Actually, I'm spending too much time online... :)

Why do it? I want to try something different. I'd like for the PCs to be fairly well-balanced with respect to one another, but my players don't like Point-Buy. This method still allows them to roll, but helps promote balance. (Note: I only really care about balance w.r.t. other PCs; I can DM the game at any power-level.)

I also want to point out that once you understand how the algorithm works, it takes only slightly longer than Point-Buy to generate stats.
Reversefigure4
12-17-06, 05:36 PM I'm not sure I have this right. Let's say I roll up a high stat set, in this order:
(1) 16, (2) 16 , (3) 17, (4) 18, (5) 14, (6) 12. Over a 30 pt buy.
Now I have two 8s that I have to put in there, and the other stats have to go in order. In order of what? How I rolled without the 8s?

Obviously, my best bet is to drop the two lowest numbers, which happen to be the last ones. So I end up with 16 Str, 16 Dex, 17 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.

But let's say I want to make a Sorcerer, so I pick to drop Str and Int. Are my scores now 8, 16, 17, 8, 14, 12?

Bizarrely, what I have now is a nimble, tough, wise, and only slightly more charismatic than the average person Sorc, with his casting stat being one of his lowest. Have I used the method correctly, or did I miss something here?

Edit: OK, looking through it again... do I move the order of numbers along as I insert the 8s? Ending up with 8, 16 (roll 1), 16 (roll 2), 8, 17 (roll 3), 18 (roll 4)? I'm confused.
Bavix
12-17-06, 06:31 PM When I started my current campaign I had the players spend 8 points of their characters' ability modifiers. I told them not to worry about the actual scores at all. If they took a negative ability modifier on an ability score hey could have another to spend. Basically, as long as the total was 8 everything was cool.

When they were done placing the modifiers, I told them to record the corresponding ability scores as the odd number so that they could make the most of the ability score increase when they reached 4th level—effectively beiing guaranteed a modifier increase upon reaching that level in their ability of choice. It was super simple and the players really appreciated it.

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me if they completely drppped the ability scores and just used modifiers when the inevitable 4E comes around... but that's just me.
StoneStokes
12-18-06, 08:33 PM I'm not sure I have this right. Let's say I roll up a high stat set, in this order:
(1) 16, (2) 16 , (3) 17, (4) 18, (5) 14, (6) 12. Over a 30 pt buy.
Now I have two 8s that I have to put in there, and the other stats have to go in order. In order of what? How I rolled without the 8s?

Obviously, my best bet is to drop the two lowest numbers, which happen to be the last ones. So I end up with 16 Str, 16 Dex, 17 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha.

But let's say I want to make a Sorcerer, so I pick to drop Str and Int. Are my scores now 8, 16, 17, 8, 14, 12?

Bizarrely, what I have now is a nimble, tough, wise, and only slightly more charismatic than the average person Sorc, with his casting stat being one of his lowest. Have I used the method correctly, or did I miss something here?

Edit: OK, looking through it again... do I move the order of numbers along as I insert the 8s? Ending up with 8, 16 (roll 1), 16 (roll 2), 8, 17 (roll 3), 18 (roll 4)? I'm confused.

First of all: four rolls and then the Point-Buy. So yours were 16,16,17,18 (as you stated in your Edit). Then the Point-Buy (in this case the two 8's because of your phenomenal dice). You decide that you want a Sor, so you put the 8's into Str and Int. Now your scores are
Str 8
Dex
Con
Int 8
Wis
Cha

Now you put the rolled scores into the abilities IN ORDER. In this case they are:
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 17
Cha 18

Cheers,
StoneStokes
Sphyre
12-18-06, 09:51 PM I am assuming you wanted us to comment on your system. I think you are spending too much time on the stat generating process. I do not believe that this variation is going to add or take away form the game. So why do it?

Because he wants to? Because he finds merit and fun in doing it? He never asked you to comment "Is it worth the time to create an alternate method?" if anything that's the least relavent comment you could have made.

Maybe if you said something like "It still has a problem of X or Y" it might actually hold some weight.

Perhaps you should post a little more constructively.
Reversefigure4
12-18-06, 10:35 PM First of all: four rolls...

*smacks forehead*

No wonder it made no sense.

Again, though, you still seem to end up with a problem. Suppose my 4 rolls are 16, 16, 15, 11. I put the 8s into Str and Int again, putting the others in order... except now my Sorc has 11 Charisma. Oh dear.

I see your point that it's "organic" and random... but the whole stats in order thing just reeks of the old 3d6-in-order-now-you're-stuck-playing-a-fighter-sucker system from older editions.
StoneStokes
12-19-06, 05:22 PM *smacks forehead*

No wonder it made no sense.

Again, though, you still seem to end up with a problem. Suppose my 4 rolls are 16, 16, 15, 11. I put the 8s into Str and Int again, putting the others in order... except now my Sorc has 11 Charisma. Oh dear.

I see your point that it's "organic" and random... but the whole stats in order thing just reeks of the old 3d6-in-order-now-you're-stuck-playing-a-fighter-sucker system from older editions.
True that this set of rolls that you have provided is not suited to playing a Sorcerer. That's part of the point (the organic part). But it isn't quite as organic (in the bad sense) as 1ed. For instance, this set of rolls is quite good for a Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard.

Like I said in my original post: this system is not suited for groups that like to build their characters from Concepts. It is suited for groups that like to roll stats first, then decide what characters to play.
StoneStokes
12-19-06, 05:35 PM When I started my current campaign I had the players spend 8 points of their characters' ability modifiers. I told them not to worry about the actual scores at all. If they took a negative ability modifier on an ability score hey could have another to spend. Basically, as long as the total was 8 everything was cool.

When they were done placing the modifiers, I told them to record the corresponding ability scores as the odd number so that they could make the most of the ability score increase when they reached 4th level—effectively beiing guaranteed a modifier increase upon reaching that level in their ability of choice. It was super simple and the players really appreciated it.

Honestly, it wouldn't bother me if they completely drppped the ability scores and just used modifiers when the inevitable 4E comes around... but that's just me.

This system seems very powerful. Example:

My halfling wizard 1 (after racial modifiers):
Str 7, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 19, Wis 11, Cha 9
Solik
12-19-06, 06:30 PM If you want to enforce balance while using rolling, I'd simply suggest the following.

Pick a valid "range" of scores based on the point-buy system. 25-32 for a standard campaign, higher if you prefer. Have everyone roll their scores using your favorite method (one with an average total result in the middle of the point-buy range definitely preferred). Anyone whose total values fall outside that range rerolls all six stats. Continue until everyone's stats fit the range.

Allow anyone with weird luck who keeps having to reroll to use point-buy equal to the median value.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StoneStokes 12-16-06, 03:16 PM	For the next campaign that I run, I've decided to try a new system for ability score generation. This is based on someone's suggestion in one of the other threads (sorry, I don't remember your name, and I couldn't find your post again). First, I will tell you the features that I was hoping for, then the system: Balanced, like Point-Buy; Organic, not total freedom (this might offend both sides of the Rolling v. Point-Buy debate); Somewhat random, like Rolling. This is achieved (hopefully) through the following steps: Roll four scores, using 4d6-drop-one, and record in order on scratch paper. Compute the Point-Buy values of these scores (less than 8 costs 0 points, even a 3), and sum the values. If the total value is less than 30, "buy" two scores from Point-Buy using the difference. If you cannot spend all of the points, the extras are lost (no scores above 18). If the total value is 30 or more, the two "purchased" scores are both 8's. Place the two "purchased" scores first, anywhere you want. Place the original "rolled" scores in order (the order that you rolled them) into the remaining abilities. A couple of comments on this system: Exceptionally high-powered or low-powered characters are possible, but are less likely than with Rolling. This is probably not the best system for those who are set on "Concepts." (I am usually not set on Concepts when I play, so I like this system). This system is strongly organic, and may force players to deal with weaknesses (my philosophy is that interesting characters are interesting because of their weaknesses more than their strengths). As DM, if a player really did not like the scores generated by this method, I would allow them to generate a second set using the same method. They should then use the second set, regardless. I said earlier that "Concepts" people might not like this system. However, that's not to say that this method pigeon-holes anyone into a class they dislike. While experimenting with this system, most sets of scores could be developed nicely into a wide range of classes. One set would have been perfect for either a Paladin or a Wizard (imagine that). If you are interested in this system, I suggest experimenting with it first yourself before imposing it on players. I chose 30 points for the total because my next campaign with be pretty high-powered. You could choose more or fewer points for the total as you see fit. Experiment first.
pierow37 12-16-06, 03:19 PM	hey. I don't even know how point buy really works. So before i give any comments on if it is better or worse. Could you explane point buy to me?
dayrat 12-16-06, 03:41 PM	For the next campaign that I run, I've decided to try a new system for ability score generation. This is based on someone's suggestion in one of the other threads (sorry, I don't remember your name, and I couldn't find your post again). First, I will tell you the features that I was hoping for, then the system: Balanced, like Point-Buy; Organic, not total freedom (this might offend both sides of the Rolling v. Point-Buy debate); Somewhat random, like Rolling. This is achieved (hopefully) through the following steps: Roll four scores, using 4d6-drop-one, and record in order on scratch paper. Compute the Point-Buy values of these scores (less than 8 costs 0 points, even a 3), and sum the values. If the total value is less than 30, "buy" two scores from Point-Buy using the difference. If you cannot spend all of the points, the extras are lost (no scores above 18). If the total value is 30 or more, the two "purchased" scores are both 8's. Place the two "purchased" scores first, anywhere you want. Place the original "rolled" scores in order (the order that you rolled them) into the remaining abilities. A couple of comments on this system: Exceptionally high-powered or low-powered characters are possible, but are less likely than with Rolling. This is probably not the best system for those who are set on "Concepts." (I am usually not set on Concepts when I play, so I like this system). This system is strongly organic, and may force players to deal with weaknesses (my philosophy is that interesting characters are interesting because of their weaknesses more than their strengths). As DM, if a player really did not like the scores generated by this method, I would allow them to generate a second set using the same method. They should then use the second set, regardless. I said earlier that "Concepts" people might not like this system. However, that's not to say that this method pigeon-holes anyone into a class they dislike. While experimenting with this system, most sets of scores could be developed nicely into a wide range of classes. One set would have been perfect for either a Paladin or a Wizard (imagine that). If you are interested in this system, I suggest experimenting with it first yourself before imposing it on players. I chose 30 points for the total because my next campaign with be pretty high-powered. You could choose more or fewer points for the total as you see fit. Experiment first. I am assuming you wanted us to comment on your system. I think you are spending too much time on the stat generating process. I do not believe that this variation is going to add or take away form the game. So why do it?
pierow37 12-16-06, 03:43 PM	Hmmm.. it seems like it would work well. it is fairly balanced, but lets them have weaknesses... I sorta like it, but i more like the Jenas Method. Probably, because I came up with it.
StoneStokes 12-16-06, 06:18 PM	I am assuming you wanted us to comment on your system. I think you are spending too much time on the stat generating process. I do not believe that this variation is going to add or take away form the game. So why do it? Actually, I'm spending too much time online... :) Why do it? I want to try something different. I'd like for the PCs to be fairly well-balanced with respect to one another, but my players don't like Point-Buy. This method still allows them to roll, but helps promote balance. (Note: I only really care about balance w.r.t. other PCs; I can DM the game at any power-level.) I also want to point out that once you understand how the algorithm works, it takes only slightly longer than Point-Buy to generate stats.
Reversefigure4 12-17-06, 05:36 PM	I'm not sure I have this right. Let's say I roll up a high stat set, in this order: (1) 16, (2) 16 , (3) 17, (4) 18, (5) 14, (6) 12. Over a 30 pt buy. Now I have two 8s that I have to put in there, and the other stats have to go in order. In order of what? How I rolled without the 8s? Obviously, my best bet is to drop the two lowest numbers, which happen to be the last ones. So I end up with 16 Str, 16 Dex, 17 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. But let's say I want to make a Sorcerer, so I pick to drop Str and Int. Are my scores now 8, 16, 17, 8, 14, 12? Bizarrely, what I have now is a nimble, tough, wise, and only slightly more charismatic than the average person Sorc, with his casting stat being one of his lowest. Have I used the method correctly, or did I miss something here? Edit: OK, looking through it again... do I move the order of numbers along as I insert the 8s? Ending up with 8, 16 (roll 1), 16 (roll 2), 8, 17 (roll 3), 18 (roll 4)? I'm confused.
Bavix 12-17-06, 06:31 PM	When I started my current campaign I had the players spend 8 points of their characters' ability modifiers. I told them not to worry about the actual scores at all. If they took a negative ability modifier on an ability score hey could have another to spend. Basically, as long as the total was 8 everything was cool. When they were done placing the modifiers, I told them to record the corresponding ability scores as the odd number so that they could make the most of the ability score increase when they reached 4th level—effectively beiing guaranteed a modifier increase upon reaching that level in their ability of choice. It was super simple and the players really appreciated it. Honestly, it wouldn't bother me if they completely drppped the ability scores and just used modifiers when the inevitable 4E comes around... but that's just me.
StoneStokes 12-18-06, 08:33 PM	I'm not sure I have this right. Let's say I roll up a high stat set, in this order: (1) 16, (2) 16 , (3) 17, (4) 18, (5) 14, (6) 12. Over a 30 pt buy. Now I have two 8s that I have to put in there, and the other stats have to go in order. In order of what? How I rolled without the 8s? Obviously, my best bet is to drop the two lowest numbers, which happen to be the last ones. So I end up with 16 Str, 16 Dex, 17 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. But let's say I want to make a Sorcerer, so I pick to drop Str and Int. Are my scores now 8, 16, 17, 8, 14, 12? Bizarrely, what I have now is a nimble, tough, wise, and only slightly more charismatic than the average person Sorc, with his casting stat being one of his lowest. Have I used the method correctly, or did I miss something here? Edit: OK, looking through it again... do I move the order of numbers along as I insert the 8s? Ending up with 8, 16 (roll 1), 16 (roll 2), 8, 17 (roll 3), 18 (roll 4)? I'm confused. First of all: four rolls and then the Point-Buy. So yours were 16,16,17,18 (as you stated in your Edit). Then the Point-Buy (in this case the two 8's because of your phenomenal dice). You decide that you want a Sor, so you put the 8's into Str and Int. Now your scores are Str 8 Dex Con Int 8 Wis Cha Now you put the rolled scores into the abilities IN ORDER. In this case they are: Str 8 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 17 Cha 18 Cheers, StoneStokes
Sphyre 12-18-06, 09:51 PM	I am assuming you wanted us to comment on your system. I think you are spending too much time on the stat generating process. I do not believe that this variation is going to add or take away form the game. So why do it? Because he wants to? Because he finds merit and fun in doing it? He never asked you to comment "Is it worth the time to create an alternate method?" if anything that's the least relavent comment you could have made. Maybe if you said something like "It still has a problem of X or Y" it might actually hold some weight. Perhaps you should post a little more constructively.
Reversefigure4 12-18-06, 10:35 PM	First of all: four rolls... smacks forehead No wonder it made no sense. Again, though, you still seem to end up with a problem. Suppose my 4 rolls are 16, 16, 15, 11. I put the 8s into Str and Int again, putting the others in order... except now my Sorc has 11 Charisma. Oh dear. I see your point that it's "organic" and random... but the whole stats in order thing just reeks of the old 3d6-in-order-now-you're-stuck-playing-a-fighter-sucker system from older editions.
StoneStokes 12-19-06, 05:22 PM	smacks forehead No wonder it made no sense. Again, though, you still seem to end up with a problem. Suppose my 4 rolls are 16, 16, 15, 11. I put the 8s into Str and Int again, putting the others in order... except now my Sorc has 11 Charisma. Oh dear. I see your point that it's "organic" and random... but the whole stats in order thing just reeks of the old 3d6-in-order-now-you're-stuck-playing-a-fighter-sucker system from older editions. True that this set of rolls that you have provided is not suited to playing a Sorcerer. That's part of the point (the organic part). But it isn't quite as organic (in the bad sense) as 1ed. For instance, this set of rolls is quite good for a Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. Like I said in my original post: this system is not suited for groups that like to build their characters from Concepts. It is suited for groups that like to roll stats first, then decide what characters to play.
StoneStokes 12-19-06, 05:35 PM	When I started my current campaign I had the players spend 8 points of their characters' ability modifiers. I told them not to worry about the actual scores at all. If they took a negative ability modifier on an ability score hey could have another to spend. Basically, as long as the total was 8 everything was cool. When they were done placing the modifiers, I told them to record the corresponding ability scores as the odd number so that they could make the most of the ability score increase when they reached 4th level—effectively beiing guaranteed a modifier increase upon reaching that level in their ability of choice. It was super simple and the players really appreciated it. Honestly, it wouldn't bother me if they completely drppped the ability scores and just used modifiers when the inevitable 4E comes around... but that's just me. This system seems very powerful. Example: My halfling wizard 1 (after racial modifiers): Str 7, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 19, Wis 11, Cha 9
Solik 12-19-06, 06:30 PM	If you want to enforce balance while using rolling, I'd simply suggest the following. Pick a valid "range" of scores based on the point-buy system. 25-32 for a standard campaign, higher if you prefer. Have everyone roll their scores using your favorite method (one with an average total result in the middle of the point-buy range definitely preferred). Anyone whose total values fall outside that range rerolls all six stats. Continue until everyone's stats fit the range. Allow anyone with weird luck who keeps having to reroll to use point-buy equal to the median value.