Post/Author/DateTime	Post
slobbernocker 05-24-04, 05:12 PM	I'm beginning to tire of the point buy method. We've been doing it since 3rd ed. (usually 32 points) and I'm getting sick of every character having even-numbered stats. There are very few reasons to have an odd-numbered stat (some feat requirements, planned level progression bumps), and in nearly all cases the characters are simply better off with all evens. Obviously, this is a game design issue, but it's to the point where I am considering going to the 3d6 twelve times, discard six rolls and arrange as desired method. Any thoughts?
Salla 05-24-04, 05:14 PM	While you may be getting sick of even-numbered stats ... what, precisely, is the actual problem? That said, even with rolling twice as many times, you're unlikely to get characters who can make decent spellcasters with only rolling straight 3d6s.
Autosponge 05-24-04, 07:09 PM	If you have all even numbers and you get to 4th level you will have cured the problem. If you change the point buy amount just slightly up or down you'll see more odd numbers since people will have a remainer of points to spend. Other than that you're just being **** retentive
D+1 05-25-04, 12:42 AM	Originally posted by slobbernocker Obviously, this is a game design issue, but it's to the point where I am considering going to the 3d6 twelve times, discard six rolls and arrange as desired method. Any thoughts? Yeah. There are a LOT of character creation options. I've made a list along with personal opinions about their various merits and place in the game: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/stat_generation.htm
exploding_brain 05-25-04, 01:53 AM	My new favorite: Chose a range of point buy values; maybe 30 to 36. Players roll 4d6 drop the lowest, six times. If the point buy value of that character's stats is too low or two high, re-roll. My second favorite method: Roll 4d6 drop the lowest, four times. Pay for those stats out of your pool of 32 points. Buy your last two stats with the remaining points.
Geethree 05-25-04, 01:57 AM	So, is there a problem besides just being sick of even numbered stats?
flyingmoose 05-25-04, 02:14 AM	What's wrong with just rolling? My group used 4d6 drop, arrange as desired, nobody ever really had a problem with their stats. I rolled exceptionally well (point buy equiv of 54), and it was never a problem. I never saw the point of point buy.
Geethree 05-25-04, 02:22 AM	I never saw the point of point buy.The eliminate the element of chance from stat generation. Also, it allows for players to create their characters without the DM looking over their shoulder, since it removes the possibility of cheating.
flyingmoose 05-25-04, 02:28 AM	Originally posted by Geethree eliminate the element of chance... Oh, that's so American.
Shadowmagyk 05-25-04, 02:31 AM	The eliminate the element of chance from stat generation. Also, it allows for players to create their characters without the DM looking over their shoulder, since it removes the possibility of cheating. The DM should make sure that everything is done correctly, anyway. He still has to make sure that the point buy is done correctly, so why not just roll your stats in front of him. There are also the groups who dont cheat. Chance makes a character more memorable. People whine too much when it comes to stats. Point buy is also for the DMs who want a campaign to go according to plan. I am not saying that point buy is wrong, it just ensures that stats will be uniform, and the DM will know what to expect.
Mister Mayhem 05-25-04, 02:39 AM	Originally posted by slobbernocker I'm beginning to tire of the point buy method. We've been doing it since 3rd ed. (usually 32 points) and I'm getting sick of every character having even-numbered stats. I had the same reason for developing a dislike of point buy, that and the dreaded "clone scores" of 2 or 3 good stats and a row of tens. But I do like the level playing field of non-random methods. It can be extremely sucky to have a character with appalling stats in a game when somebody else is darn-near perfect. That and the fact that random rolling mans that either you and all your players trust each other without question, or you have to witness every dice roll. After all, if a player genuinely rolled a straight set of 18s, would you believe him if he didn't do it in front of you? ****** I experimented with a point buy varient in which the player had a number of points to distribute between stats, but could not go lower than 2 or higher than 15. (points were one-for-one, not scaled). Then, once points were spread out, a D3 was added to each individual stat. It worked quite well, and whilst it would still be possible to have one player with better stats than the other, the absolute maximum difference was a lot lower than with 4D6 drop one. ****** However, the varient I currently use is to simply offer the players the elite array, and then give them a further 3 floating points that they can add to their stats on a one-for-one basis. So that if they really, really want an 18, they can add all three points to their 15. Or they might prefer to add two points to their 8, eliminating their negative modifier, and spend the other point bringing one of their odd scores up to an even score. This seems to work quite well:- It gets rid of the "straight evens" and "Clone Scores It keeps the PCs on a level playing field. It is pretty quick (point buy can take a while as a player tries to squeeze every last ounce of benefit out of his points, and multiple dice rolls likewise) Players can get an 18 if they really, really want one. All of the players I have seem quite happy with it.
Trydan 05-25-04, 08:24 AM	We run a 29-point buy in our campaign. That makes for 1 left over point, which goes to notch up a dump stat. When the characters hit level 4, they tend not to increment that stat - hence they get 2 "odd stats". Otherwise, just put in some arbitrary rules. For example: 29 point buy (as above), but then +1 to a random stat (roll 1d6, 1=Str, 2=Dex ...). Thus, the characters get to more or less define their stats, but there is a chance of getting lucky (or unlucky), as per a die roll.
PenderGrass 05-25-04, 04:57 PM	Oh, that's so American. Actually, the whole game is American. The whole idea is a choice of methods to generate PCs - I agree, point buy sucks, but your observation of what is and what is not American is inane and misguided at best.
Lucid dark Child 05-25-04, 05:23 PM	I use a 5d6 drop methood and it seems to produce on average about +10 total mods. The problem i'm having is at 1st lvl (when a pc dies it makes a 1st lvl character) pc's are killing themselves off to get better states. i'm debating using piont buy. but anyways just try everything untill you come back to something you like. ******* I think the "thats so american" coment was more of a comment towards the American poeples need to have controll over everything including rambon events. But i also think that this is not the correct place for a discussion on aspects of the pschological state of American society.
Galethorn 05-25-04, 08:24 PM	I'm about to convert the PCs in my campaign over to a new system, and so far it's looking like they'll be able to choose one of three arrays made with a 35-point pointbuy... 18, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8 17, 16, 15, 12, 10, 8 15, 15, 14, 14, 12, 11 If they really want to, they can subtract one point from one of the numbers and add one point to any lower score (subtract 1 from the 17, add it to the 15 in array #2, for instance, but not the reverse).
Conaill 05-26-04, 06:23 PM	Here's a few alternate methods that get around the all-even problem, and still give well-balanced stats: 1) Regular point-buy, but require at least two odd stats - duh! 2) Roll three stats using 4d6-drop-lowest. The other three are equal to 25 minus the first three (max 18). Even easier than standard 4d6, and you tend to get exactly 3 odd and 3 even stats... 3) Remove all but the 1-6 cards from a deck of cards. Deal 6 hands of 4 cards, and remove the lowest from each. Gives almost exactly the same stat distribution as 4d6, but the overall set of stats will be much better balanced. I like the last two, because they introduce some random element, while still keeping stats balanced. Another method, similar to Galethorn's alternative stat arrays: draw up a set of X acceptable and balanced stat sets (where X = 6, 8, 10, 12, or 20). Have each player roll a dX to pick one (e.g. d20 on a table of 20 possible stat sets).
Nom 05-26-04, 11:59 PM	Originally posted by Conaill, emphasis mine 2) Roll three stats using 4d6-drop-lowest. The other three are equal to 25 minus the first three (max 18). Even easier than standard 4d6, and you tend to get exactly 3 odd and 3 even stats...Uh, unless I'm badly mistaken, you must get exactly 3 odd and 3 even stats when using this system.[quote]
Conaill 05-27-04, 11:02 AM	Originally posted by Nom Uh, unless I'm badly mistaken, you must get exactly 3 odd and 3 even stats when using this system.[quote] Not with the "max 18" rule. For example, if someone were to roll 6, 6, 6 for the first three rolls, he'd get an 18, 18, 18 for the last three (not 19, 19, 19). Rolling a 6 or lower on the first three isn't *that* rare, hence "tend to get 3 odd and 3 even". Of course, if you want higher stats, you could change the 25 to 27, 29, etc. PS: this method will tend to generate slightly more 18's than straight 4d6, because rolls of 7 or lower are more likely than a roll of 18. The total set will still tend to be better balanced than 4d6 though.
Conaill 05-27-04, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by Nom Uh, unless I'm badly mistaken, you must get exactly 3 odd and 3 even stats when using this system.[quote] Not with the "max 18" rule. For example, if someone were to roll 6, 6, 6 for the first three rolls, he'd get an 18, 18, 18 for the last three (not 19, 19, 19). Rolling a 6 or lower on the first three isn't *that* rare, hence "tend to get 3 odd and 3 even". Of course, if you want higher stats, you could change the 25 to 27, 29, etc. PS: this method will tend to generate slightly more 18's than straight 4d6, because rolls of 7 or lower are more likely than a roll of 18. The total set will still tend to be better balanced than 4d6 though.
Gothic_Demon 05-27-04, 12:05 PM	Personally I never use point buy. My players and I all prefer the organic feel of rolled characters, who aren't perfect at their chosen task (no high rolls), or who have strengths that wouldn't normally be present (a sorceror with decent strength, etc.) It's never affected the campaign, no players ever complain about 'Bob' having higher stats than them, and no-one cheats (the DM always watches). I had never even heard of point buy until 3e (and I've played since 1989...)
Mystic Lemur 05-27-04, 02:38 PM	IMC we use 2d6+6. If I'm feeling really generous (usually), I let them reroll ones. That gives a stat range of 10-18 with the average being 14. It usually makes for higher average modifier totals. The downside is that I have rolled several NPC's before with strait 14's. As for the odd numbers, if you use dice you are still likely to have even numbers. Odd+Odd=Even, Even+Even=Even, only Odd+Even=Odd
Azer Firelord 05-27-04, 02:45 PM	My campaign uses the following really dumb system (yes I'm the DM, yes I am going to change it as soon as I have a chance) Take the 'elite array': 15,14,13,12,10,8 List which stat applies to which number. Add racial and age modifiers. Choose 3 stats. For each of these stats, roll a d6 and add it to the existing score.If you get over the maximum (18 plus racial/age mods) on any score, you can 'carrry over' the extra points to another stat. Then, add any modifiers for level ups if your character started at level 4 or higher. Now, all my PCs have 3 18s and some have 4. Me think I made a mistake somewhere:rolleyes:
Conaill 05-27-04, 05:03 PM	Originally posted by Mystic Lemur As for the odd numbers, if you use dice you are still likely to have even numbers. Odd+Odd=Even, Even+Even=Even, only Odd+Even=Odd Nope. Because if you're adding two random numbers you have two different ways to get Odd: Odd+Even and Even+Odd. If you don't believe me, get two coins and count how often you get one heads and one tail, compare to two heads or two tails. Twenty tosses or so should be enough to see the result. Look at the straight 3d6 roll: the probability of rolling 3 is exactly the same as the probability of rolling an 18. In fact, rolling X has exactly the same probability as rolling 21-X. So Odd numbers should have exactly the same probability as even ones. For 4d6 things get a little murkier, because you no longer have a symmetric distribution. But I don't see any obvious way to predict wether Odds would be more likely than Evens or vice vera. You'd have to calculate the distribution and add up the probabilities for that. Originally posted by Azer Firelord Now, all my PCs have 3 18s and some have 4. Me think I made a mistake somewhereWell, three extra d6's will average 10 or 11 points. So on average you should get something like 18, 18, 16, 12, 10, 8. Add a +2/-2 race and you'll get three 18's at lvl 1 *on average*. With some good rolls, age modifiers and/or stat increases for level, I'm not really surprised some people have 4 18's. Here's a possible alternative: assign elite array as before, then roll a d6 3 times. The number on the d6 indicates which stat you increase by 1. So if you roll a 2, you add 1 to Dex; if you roll 6, you add one to Cha.
Azer Firelord 05-27-04, 05:11 PM	Yes that might work. I meant 3/4 18s before stat increases for levels, afterwards they generally have even more. For example, the Young Human Priest had Wis 18, Cha 18, Int 18, Str 18, Dex 8 Con 10 at level 1. But then he did roll 3 6s...
Topolla 05-27-04, 07:24 PM	I like the organic method for rolling stats (4d6, place in order and then switch any desired stat with another). I find that it creates unique characters but also allows players to play what they want. It also keeps the power-level in check. I find using cards to generate scores an interesting option. Imagine calling together a session to generate characters for a new campaign. All the players sit down with their dice, and then you toss each one a deck of cards. I dealt myself a few characters and am liking the results.
RobTzu 05-27-04, 07:37 PM	I dislike point Buy because everyone is "equal". That is too unrealistic for me. Some things don't have to make sense, but something as basic as ability scores should. Look at any sports team, those guys aren't all basically equal. Roll, random is more believable.
eRaz0r 05-27-04, 07:53 PM	I'm biased towards point buy because I've played GURPS since the early nineties. It allows me to create characters without having a paranoid DM looking over my shoulder, including fiddling with stats to get exactly the character I'm looking for. With the average point buy 25, you also really have to make hard decisions. Do I want to play a Monk badly enough to not have a stat over 14 ? Do I really want to take a penalty to one stat to get over 15 in another ? You get much more control over your character design and you know that any deficits in your character are exactly your choice, and any strengths come from the player. Admittedly I've had to experience playing the character (in 2nd ed) who stood next to the uber-stat character, and I did resent it, at first. Also, our DM used a foolish stat generation system... "Roll 3d6s for stats until you get two stats over 15 in a six stat block. Your stats are the last six numbers in rolled order." So you'd just keep rolling until you saw two 16s or better and those were your stats. Of course, the probability that you get 16 or more twice in the first six rolls was much lower than you'd get a 16 or higher sometime after those rolls, which meant almost everyone in the party had a high CHA since you couldn't change the order of the stats. The first guy rolls something like the following stats : 18, 14, 18, 7, 15, 17. And he was done : Ranger coming right up. I think I rolled (eventually, after a dozen previous rolls) 12, 11, 14, 14, 17, 17 I played a Paladin. For a while it was hard to stand next to the ranger as he just kept out-damaging me, out performing me completely, and since his CHA was as good as mine, he almost competed in social settings. Eventually, things got better. I got some magic items to make up for my poor battlefield performance (Gauntlets of Ogre Power were very handy around then) but the game wasn't always very fun until then. Now there is nothing wrong with those rolls, but I would have liked the option to put them into the stats I wanted, and I like even more, the control that Point Buy gives me, removing the horrible randomness of character creation. It's like "Taking 10" on rolling your stats :)
eRaz0r 05-27-04, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by RobTzu I dislike point Buy because everyone is "equal". That is too unrealistic for me. Some things don't have to make sense, but something as basic as ability scores should. Look at any sports team, those guys aren't all basically equal. Roll, random is more believable. But that's simply not true : 1/ Everyone has _equivalent_ choices under point buy. They are far from equal. A person might choose to take 8,14,14,16,10,9 or they might take 14,14,14,11,10,10. Or they might decide on 10,13,17,10,9,10. These are hardly "equal" characters, although they both had the equivalent choices to make to get them. 2/ Take another look at those sports teams. I think you'll find different sports have different requirements and all the players equally satisfy those requirements. Take Basketball. How many midgets do you see ? How many people who can't run around for an hour at a time ? I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Not everyone is created equal - that's true. But the types of people who might become heroic adventurers aren't just "anyone". And furthermore, it's a _game_ - which puts a different perspective on things. But each to their own.. Your life : your choice.
Mister Mayhem 05-28-04, 07:36 AM	Also, if you have truly random scores, you end up playing a character that the dice choose for you, not one you necessarily want to play. For example, maybe I'm smart, charismatic but quite wipmy in real life. As a contrast to this, I want to play a character who is Strong, Tough but not too bright. Instead, I end up rolling low STR and High int. This would, for me, diminish half the reason for playing in the first place - getting to be somebody who is different from me.
polsemager 05-28-04, 06:43 PM	We're experimenting with a system where each class is assigned 3 "important" and 3 "not so important" stats. Fx. str, dex and con are important stats for fighters and barbarians, int, dex, con for wizards etc. You now have either a point buy or some way of fixed scores, but split up in the two groups so the fighter can use 16 points on important and 16 point on not so important stats. The idea is to encourage characters with higher scores in those usual dump-stats. We've had to admit that we're all too immature and stupid to put that 17 in charisma on our fighter. But how do you like the basic idea (I dont need whining over the need for such a system.....we're whining ourselves already).
Korgan26 05-29-04, 04:16 AM	This is being discussed on another board and here are some of the methods that have come up. Point buy 32, 28, 25 and 40! Default array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 3d6 by GM in order Elite array 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12 74 attribute point buy 1 for 1 d10+8 3d6 4d6 drop lowest 4d6 drop lowest 7 times, keep best 6 4d6 drop lowest, reroll all 1s 4d6 drop lowest 7 times, keep best 6, reroll all 1s 1 18 + point buy 25 Sending players to any of the “numerous what are your stats” sites and using those. Z
Al2902 05-29-04, 05:22 AM	Originally posted by Topolla I like the organic method for rolling stats (4d6, place in order and then switch any desired stat with another). I find that it creates unique characters but also allows players to play what they want. It also keeps the power-level in check. Yay :) ! I always thought I was the only DM in the world who actually used the organic method. I looked over the DM-NPCs and blanched at the thought of "Hello, I'm Bob the 15 13 14 10 12 8 fighter". "You dumped Charisma too then?" Regular 4d6 I found that people were still dumping all of the routine scores; organic makes interesting characters such as one NPC sorceror with higher Int than Cha that is constantly trying to show that sorcerors are at least as smart as wizards ("not all sorcerors are fireball-tossing halfwits") and striving against a magocratic culture where wizards rule supreme.
TieraStarr 05-29-04, 09:11 AM	Out of the official methods, organic is my choice also. For my most recent game I offered the following: Assign 24 dice to your six abilities, minimum three to any one. (Four people chose two 5d6, two 4d6, and two 3d6, two chose 4d6 across the board.) Roll your scores. Swap any two (if you want to). Reroll any one. (again only if you want to) (One person decided to be tricky and swapped their lowest score - a 6 rolled using 3d6 to an ability that he had assigned 5d6, then choose it for the reroll. I allowed the reroll with 5d6, but he only got a 13.) Add up the point-buy value of your scores. If it is less than 27, discard the character and design your character using 27 point buy, but your rolled scores are the minimums you may have in each ability. (Three characters had less than 27 points. Two players designed their characters with the point-buy, but the third said he would play with what he rolled - including a 4 Charisma - which he decided to emphasise by taking a dwarven cleric. Upon my suggestion, he agreed to improve his Dexterity to bring his character to almost 27 point buy.) I really wanted to included a maximum 32 point-value cap as well, but the players didn't want that. --------------------------------------- P.S.: I strongly reccommend a point-buy or array safety net, instead of a reroll safety net, because it removes the chance of an endless loop. Also the added flexibility of point-buy or an array gives something to compensate for the lower scores. Also, I used the following point-values for scores less than eight: Score Value 3 -2 4 -1 2/3 5 -1 1/3 6 -1 7 -˝
TieraStarr 05-29-04, 09:29 AM	I am also working on a project where different dice options are available for each ability, depending on the priority you set, such as: VLow: 3d4 Low: 3d6 Avg: 4+d6+d8 High: 10+2d4 VHigh: 13+d5 You could choose Avg for all six abilities, or increase the priority on some by reducing the priority on others. For example, I might take three Low, one High, and one VHigh. I'll probably also allow the one swap like the organic method. I am still playing with statistics and have not settled on the actual die rolls for each level. (I'm actually writing it for use with aspects (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204792&highlight=aspects) so it will be a little different than presented above.) ------------------- Basically, it is designed to be a delicate balance between randomness and freedom. Also the player is guaranteed a bonus score to any ability they assign High or VHigh priority to, and Avg priority scores will not go below 6.)
TieraStarr 05-29-04, 09:35 AM	Another good method I've seen people suggest involves playing cards instead of dice. Take 24 cards (Ace=1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 for each suit). Shuffle and deal into six piles of four. From each pile of four add the highest three values. However if they are all of the same suit you may add all four. I've run statistics on this, and it pretty much always gives a fairly balanced spread of numbers. It can be used as an arrange as desired, or an in-order method (hopefully with a swap allowed).
TieraStarr 05-29-04, 09:50 AM	I've always been in the in-order camp, and play with people that prefer arrange as desired. A slight twist to put on an arrange as desired, or point-buy (which is also by default arranged as desired) is a random shuffle. After generating and arranging their ability scores, the player may select two of their abilities that are safe (typically players either select their highest and lowest, or their two highest). The other four are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4. Two d4's are rolled, and the two coresponding ability scores are swapped. If both d4's roll the same number, then that ability has its score rerolled instead (using 4d6 sum the best 3). Another slightly different version of the same thing is to simply roll one d6. The rolled ability (1 Str, 2 Con, 3 Dex, 4 Int, 5 Wis, 6 Ch) is left unchanged, but three other abilities (player's choice) must be swapped. (For example if you have a 13 Str 15 Con 14 Int and those are the three chosen abilities, you could select either 15 Str 14 Con 13 Int or 14 Str 13 Con 15 Int.)
TieraStarr 05-29-04, 09:59 AM	Finally, one other method I've used in the past to cross the boundary of arrange as desired and in-order is to roll one score at a time, then assign it to an ability before rolling the next score. It makes for difficult choices - for example if you are intending on playing a wizard and your first roll is a 14, do you assign it to Intelligence? or do you hold out for a better score?) I ended up discarding this method because of the regret factor.