Ability Score Limits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Score Limits [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shoes
07-27-04, 01:38 AM Recently I've been thinking of trying something new with ability scores. I'm soon to run a mini-campaign starting at 12th level to 16th level (Maure castle, Dungeon #112 July 04) and wanted to limit on how high ability scores can go (different reasons, mostly don't like the fact of massive ability scores and players abusing it). I'm doing point buy system (25 points) and players can only have any single stat has high as 24 even with magical items (suppose to represent mortal limits). I was thinking of maybe racial ability score increase can break that limit (has high as 24 + racial bonus) and with manual and tomes.

Any thoughts or comments?

Edit: I'm running D&D 3.25 (a mixture of 3E & 3.5). Any things specifically I should use from one or the other for what is balanced compared to the use from the other? Classes, feats, PrCs, rules, spells?
Nom
07-27-04, 03:59 AM With a 25 point buy, just keep an eye on what items you hand out and you shouldn't need to worry about an ability score limit. Sure, a char can reach 25 natural by level 20 (18 + 2 racial + 5 levels) but with only 25 points they'll be a one trick wonder.
Kalrin
07-27-04, 04:19 AM As I recall in 3.0 without hitting epics stats couldn't go above I believe it was 36 or so... lemme check

18 (base) + 2 (Racial) + 5 (Levels) + 5 (Tomes) + 6 (Item Enhancement) = 36

or for the mental stats plus ageing

18 (base) +5 (Levels) + 5 (Tomes) + 6 (Item Enhancement) + 3 (Ageing) = 37

Some odd effects for you:

a Barbarian 10/Frenzied Bezerker 10 (who is a Half-Orc) can hit a Strength of 50, which is bad, but I think that caps for all of the stats.....
Twisted Puppy
07-27-04, 10:10 AM If you use the Tainted classes from Dungeon Magazine (don't have the issue with me), it is possible to greatly increase your scores. The Ultraloth taint (I think) grants additional intelligence, which is an inherent bonus, at two points in the tainted level progression. You can then end up with an INT of 18(start) + 5 (levels) +5 (tomes) +6 (enhancement) +8(from the taint, level 10) = 42. Needless to say, people are very surprised when they need a to make a DC27 save against a 1st level spell.

Bear in mind, too, that the "mortal limit of 24" is from 1st and 2nd edition, and has been pretty much deleted from 3.0 and 3.5. Since you seem to prefer a low powered game, that is of course your call to make - as long as the players are happy with it as well. IMC, I knew going in that the players I had prefered higher powered characters, so I said fine - and made the bad guys tougher. :)
Shoes
07-28-04, 01:58 AM :bump:
Kalrin
07-28-04, 03:04 AM Originally posted by Twisted Puppy
If you use the Tainted classes from Dungeon Magazine (don't have the issue with me), it is possible to greatly increase your scores. The Ultraloth taint (I think) grants additional intelligence, which is an inherent bonus, at two points in the tainted level progression. You can then end up with an INT of 18(start) + 5 (levels) +5 (tomes) +6 (enhancement) +8(from the taint, level 10) = 42. Needless to say, people are very surprised when they need a to make a DC27 save against a 1st level spell.

Just a quickie... the Tomes are an Inherent Bonus too. Also, Inherent Bonuses are capped at +5 (DMG page 177 middle of the right-hand column). So the cap remains at 37 with aging.
Twisted Puppy
07-28-04, 03:28 PM I'd have to look at the article again to be sure, but the total enhancement is +6 or +8, so it may be something like your bonus points you get every four levels. Also note, the tainted wizard only increases spellcaster level once for every other tainted level, not 1:1 like some other PrCs.
aka Jimmy
07-28-04, 08:21 PM Originally posted by Shoes
Recently I've been thinking of trying something new with ability scores. I'm soon to run a mini-campaign starting at 12th level to 16th level (Maure castle, Dungeon #112 July 04) and wanted to limit on how high ability scores can go (different reasons, mostly don't like the fact of massive ability scores and players abusing it). I'm doing point buy system (25 points) and players can only have any single stat has high as 24 even with magical items (suppose to represent mortal limits). I was thinking of maybe racial ability score increase can break that limit (has high as 24 + racial bonus) and with manual and tomes.

Any thoughts or comments?

Edit: I'm running D&D 3.25 (a mixture of 3E & 3.5). Any things specifically I should use from one or the other for what is balanced compared to the use from the other? Classes, feats, PrCs, rules, spells?

1) Arbitrary caps are in general a bad idea. The system is the way it is for a reason.
2) Do not, for any reason, confuse 3E stats with those from 1st ed, 2nd ed, basic etc... This makes as much sense as capping stats in GURPS because the numbers would be "too high" in Rollmaster. (or whatever). If you insist on using arbitrary caps, doing so because of the accepted stat ranges from previous editions is the worst of all possible reasons.
3) (as has been already noted), the only way players are going to get stats in the 25+ range prior to epic is via magic items. The DM has total control over placement of magic items as treasure. So be careful what you give out and don't offer any for sale. If you want to go really hardcore, limit magic item creation as well (there should be no need as the XP cost is sufficient to prevent abuse).

What it comes down to is how you want to be viewed by your players. This is pure DM public relations here :)
If you want to be seen as an unreasonable autocrat, use your stat cap.
If you want to get the exact same effect just put some damn thought into your game. If you leave the rules as they are written, but are careful with magic, then you will effectively has instituted your "cap" without your players being the wiser.
archcomponent
07-28-04, 08:32 PM The 24 cap in 2nd ed was when ability scores were exponential. A 24 in 2nd edition is going to be much higher in 3rd edition. So keeping the 'same' cap should use a higher number.
Sildatorak
07-28-04, 08:43 PM Originally posted by archcomponent
The 24 cap in 2nd ed was when ability scores were exponential. A 24 in 2nd edition is going to be much higher in 3rd edition. So keeping the 'same' cap should use a higher number.

The cap was 25, actually. But you're right on about the stat system being so much differenet as not to compare. Because of exceptional strength categories from 18(01) to 18(100), a 2e 20 is equivalent to a 26 or thereabouts in 3e.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shoes 07-27-04, 01:38 AM	Recently I've been thinking of trying something new with ability scores. I'm soon to run a mini-campaign starting at 12th level to 16th level (Maure castle, Dungeon #112 July 04) and wanted to limit on how high ability scores can go (different reasons, mostly don't like the fact of massive ability scores and players abusing it). I'm doing point buy system (25 points) and players can only have any single stat has high as 24 even with magical items (suppose to represent mortal limits). I was thinking of maybe racial ability score increase can break that limit (has high as 24 + racial bonus) and with manual and tomes. Any thoughts or comments? Edit: I'm running D&D 3.25 (a mixture of 3E & 3.5). Any things specifically I should use from one or the other for what is balanced compared to the use from the other? Classes, feats, PrCs, rules, spells?
Nom 07-27-04, 03:59 AM	With a 25 point buy, just keep an eye on what items you hand out and you shouldn't need to worry about an ability score limit. Sure, a char can reach 25 natural by level 20 (18 + 2 racial + 5 levels) but with only 25 points they'll be a one trick wonder.
Kalrin 07-27-04, 04:19 AM	As I recall in 3.0 without hitting epics stats couldn't go above I believe it was 36 or so... lemme check 18 (base) + 2 (Racial) + 5 (Levels) + 5 (Tomes) + 6 (Item Enhancement) = 36 or for the mental stats plus ageing 18 (base) +5 (Levels) + 5 (Tomes) + 6 (Item Enhancement) + 3 (Ageing) = 37 Some odd effects for you: a Barbarian 10/Frenzied Bezerker 10 (who is a Half-Orc) can hit a Strength of 50, which is bad, but I think that caps for all of the stats.....
Twisted Puppy 07-27-04, 10:10 AM	If you use the Tainted classes from Dungeon Magazine (don't have the issue with me), it is possible to greatly increase your scores. The Ultraloth taint (I think) grants additional intelligence, which is an inherent bonus, at two points in the tainted level progression. You can then end up with an INT of 18(start) + 5 (levels) +5 (tomes) +6 (enhancement) +8(from the taint, level 10) = 42. Needless to say, people are very surprised when they need a to make a DC27 save against a 1st level spell. Bear in mind, too, that the "mortal limit of 24" is from 1st and 2nd edition, and has been pretty much deleted from 3.0 and 3.5. Since you seem to prefer a low powered game, that is of course your call to make - as long as the players are happy with it as well. IMC, I knew going in that the players I had prefered higher powered characters, so I said fine - and made the bad guys tougher. :)
Shoes 07-28-04, 01:58 AM	:bump:
Kalrin 07-28-04, 03:04 AM	Originally posted by Twisted Puppy If you use the Tainted classes from Dungeon Magazine (don't have the issue with me), it is possible to greatly increase your scores. The Ultraloth taint (I think) grants additional intelligence, which is an inherent bonus, at two points in the tainted level progression. You can then end up with an INT of 18(start) + 5 (levels) +5 (tomes) +6 (enhancement) +8(from the taint, level 10) = 42. Needless to say, people are very surprised when they need a to make a DC27 save against a 1st level spell. Just a quickie... the Tomes are an Inherent Bonus too. Also, Inherent Bonuses are capped at +5 (DMG page 177 middle of the right-hand column). So the cap remains at 37 with aging.
Twisted Puppy 07-28-04, 03:28 PM	I'd have to look at the article again to be sure, but the total enhancement is +6 or +8, so it may be something like your bonus points you get every four levels. Also note, the tainted wizard only increases spellcaster level once for every other tainted level, not 1:1 like some other PrCs.
aka Jimmy 07-28-04, 08:21 PM	Originally posted by Shoes Recently I've been thinking of trying something new with ability scores. I'm soon to run a mini-campaign starting at 12th level to 16th level (Maure castle, Dungeon #112 July 04) and wanted to limit on how high ability scores can go (different reasons, mostly don't like the fact of massive ability scores and players abusing it). I'm doing point buy system (25 points) and players can only have any single stat has high as 24 even with magical items (suppose to represent mortal limits). I was thinking of maybe racial ability score increase can break that limit (has high as 24 + racial bonus) and with manual and tomes. Any thoughts or comments? Edit: I'm running D&D 3.25 (a mixture of 3E & 3.5). Any things specifically I should use from one or the other for what is balanced compared to the use from the other? Classes, feats, PrCs, rules, spells? 1) Arbitrary caps are in general a bad idea. The system is the way it is for a reason. 2) Do not, for any reason, confuse 3E stats with those from 1st ed, 2nd ed, basic etc... This makes as much sense as capping stats in GURPS because the numbers would be "too high" in Rollmaster. (or whatever). If you insist on using arbitrary caps, doing so because of the accepted stat ranges from previous editions is the worst of all possible reasons. 3) (as has been already noted), the only way players are going to get stats in the 25+ range prior to epic is via magic items. The DM has total control over placement of magic items as treasure. So be careful what you give out and don't offer any for sale. If you want to go really hardcore, limit magic item creation as well (there should be no need as the XP cost is sufficient to prevent abuse). What it comes down to is how you want to be viewed by your players. This is pure DM public relations here :) If you want to be seen as an unreasonable autocrat, use your stat cap. If you want to get the exact same effect just put some damn thought into your game. If you leave the rules as they are written, but are careful with magic, then you will effectively has instituted your "cap" without your players being the wiser.
archcomponent 07-28-04, 08:32 PM	The 24 cap in 2nd ed was when ability scores were exponential. A 24 in 2nd edition is going to be much higher in 3rd edition. So keeping the 'same' cap should use a higher number.
Sildatorak 07-28-04, 08:43 PM	Originally posted by archcomponent The 24 cap in 2nd ed was when ability scores were exponential. A 24 in 2nd edition is going to be much higher in 3rd edition. So keeping the 'same' cap should use a higher number. The cap was 25, actually. But you're right on about the stat system being so much differenet as not to compare. Because of exceptional strength categories from 18(01) to 18(100), a 2e 20 is equivalent to a 26 or thereabouts in 3e.