Ability Score Rolling Method [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Score Rolling Method [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rathje
12-30-06, 04:21 PM Alright, I've been working on a way to roll for ability scores for a while. I'm a fan of point buy, but I do enjoy the novelty of random scores. However, I had to address what my problem is with 4d6, drop the lowest:

I, as a DM, almost always have one character who out-shines everyone else. Yes, the DM can counteract this with specific encounters and all that jazz, but that means it's a lot of unnecessary work for the DM.

Here's my solution. It's a little rules-heavy for simply ability score generation, but I found it was the lack of restrictions that opened the door to huge differences between characters. Also keep in mind that I run somewhat lower-power campaigns.

4d6, drop the lowest, either roll-then-select or place-in-order (1st is STR, 2nd is DEX, etc.)
Only one ability score may be 15-18
Only one ability score may be 15-16
Only one ability score may be 8-9
Only one ability score may be 3-9

A character does not require one score in each slot listed above, but he may not have more. If a second 17-18, for example, comes up, the player chooses which one to keep and reroll the other. When placing scores in order rolled, the player may wait until rolling all scores before choosing which score to reroll.

If a character's total ability score modifier is less than +3, he must reroll all of his scores.

When placing ability scores in the order rolled, a player may reduce one of his character's ability scores by 2 to raise another by 1. No ability score may be lowered below 10 through this method. Both points must be taken from the same score, though multiple sets of 2 may be taken. No score may be raised above 18. If this would reduce a character below a total +3, he may not reroll his character, as it was his choice. Example: A Fighter with STR 16, WIS 14, CHA 12 may drop WIS to 12 and CHA to 10 to raise STR to 18.

Racial ability modifiers are applied after deciding whether scores must be rerolled; a character cannot be rerolled due to racial ability modifiers reducing the total modifier below +3.

---

I believe that would be everything. Please keep in mind what I'm trying to focus on with this method when responding.

-Rathje
Illion the Red
12-30-06, 05:21 PM Very convoluted. I think it would be easier to have everyone roll up a set of stats and have the Players choose which set of stats they would like to use. It give all the party-balance of point-buy, but gives them the randomness of rolling.
Longarms
12-30-06, 06:10 PM Rathje - what I really like about your system is that it is balanced and allows for low ability scores. Point buy gives minimums of eight, which I think doesn't give as much diversity as other methods (like yours).

"I think it would be easier to have everyone roll up a set of stats and have the Players choose which set of stats they would like to use. It give all the party-balance of point-buy, but gives them the randomness of rolling."

I really like this method, but I am curious, what do you do when two players can't agree on who gets to pick first? Or do you assign the order players pick in? Could you explain?
Illion the Red
12-30-06, 06:31 PM I really like this method, but I am curious, what do you do when two players can't agree on who gets to pick first? Or do you assign the order players pick in? Could you explain?

Actually, I was thinking that the players would all agree on one set of scores and share them all together. They could re-arrange them however they wanted individually. This way, if you have a dice-rolling god, everyone else benefits as well.
StoneStokes
12-30-06, 07:29 PM Rathje,
I like your method, but it seems too restrictive for me. You can have balanced characters even if one has two 18's (if the rest of the scores are low), or one has two 6's (if the rest are high).

Have you seen the method that I suggested?
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=756755

Here is a simplified version of it:

Players roll 4d6-drop-one four times.
The last two scores are "purchased" using Point-Buy so that the Point-Buy total of all six scores is 25 (or 28, or whatever limit you decide beforehand).
If the original four scores already exceed 25 points, then the last two scores are both 8's.

This allows randomness, allows for low scores, allows for high scores, allows for some rare exceptional characters, and still maintains balance (almost all characters will be very close to the Point-Buy limit that you set). You could vary this so that you roll 5 and buy 1, or roll 3 and buy 3.

Cheers,
StoneStokes
CryoSilver
12-30-06, 07:46 PM Here's the methos I've adopted for when I use rolling:

Roll 4d6 drop 8 times. Pick the best 6 scores. Total your modifiers; if they are less than +6, you can reroll the lowest scores until they equal or exceed +8.

Ex: You roll 14, 13, 12, 16, 17, 12, 6, 9. You keep: 14, 13, 12, 16, 17, 12. Your modifiers total: +2, +1, +1, +3, +3, +1 = +11. You keep the set.
Otto the Bugbear
12-30-06, 11:58 PM Mine is in my sig...

Each player rolls 4d6-L one time.
DM rolls extras to there are 6 ability scores.
Players vote to keep, or erase and do it again.
DM breaks tie votes, and holds ultimate veto power.

More detailed explanation and reasoning are given in the link.
Razaiel
12-31-06, 12:03 AM Personally I like the 4d6 system of ability score generation, as in my opinion point buy leads to generic ability scores. In real life there are certain people that outshine others, it isn't fair, but since when has life been fair? What you really need to do is either use an existing system, or come up with a system that you and your players can all agree on, don't force your system on them and then expect them to conform to it.
Rathje
12-31-06, 02:46 AM Very convoluted. I think it would be easier to have everyone roll up a set of stats and have the Players choose which set of stats they would like to use. It give all the party-balance of point-buy, but gives them the randomness of rolling.

Yes, I realize this is a very valid way of rolling scores. I just feel that everyone having the same set of stats is no different in terms of randomness from point-buy.

I like your method, but it seems too restrictive for me. You can have balanced characters even if one has two 18's (if the rest of the scores are low), or one has two 6's (if the rest are high).

I know that multiple 18's/6's can still be balanced, but I needed a place to draw the line. If I said "two scores within 15-18," a character with two 15's is very different from one with two 18's. I could come up with exceptional circumstances rules, but that would make it even more convoluted.

Also, I read your method in the thread you linked. It looks very nice, except for the sorcerer example someone posted. While I like the organic characters, my group usually doesn't, so I made my method flexible.

Personally I like the 4d6 system of ability score generation, as in my opinion point buy leads to generic ability scores. In real life there are certain people that outshine others, it isn't fair, but since when has life been fair? What you really need to do is either use an existing system, or come up with a system that you and your players can all agree on, don't force your system on them and then expect them to conform to it.

I don't want this to turn into a Rolling vs. Point-Buy argument, so I'll keep my response brief. I like Point-Buy because it's balanced and D&D is a game, a game where I try to maintain balance. I like Rolling because it's more random and organic. This method is trying to mix the two into one big happy family.

Conclusion: No Rolling vs. Point-Buy Arguments here, please.

Thanks for the feed-back,
Rathje
CharlieRock
12-31-06, 08:34 AM One of my players suggested we do point buy next draft of characters :eek: !!!

... after rolling to see how many points each character gets. ;)
Board_Rider
12-31-06, 10:02 AM I think that method is cool, and I too allow the "two for one" ability point trade option.

The current method that I use, if it matters:
1. 4 players get 6d6 each (for a total of 24d6 getting rolled) and the 6 lowest dice are taken from the pool.
2. The remaining 18d6 can be grouped together in 3's in any fashion that the players wish.

Notes:
1. Be careful because I have seen players put a 5 in Charisma, play a Dwarf, and suffering a 3 CHA.
2. I haven't had a problem with this method of late because nobody in my group likes gimped stats. They prefer balanced ability scores if they cannot have uber ability scores.
Otto the Bugbear
12-31-06, 10:11 AM I remember someone else had a suggestion for keeping the randomness of rolling and the balance of point buy.

Choose a number of points.

Roll that many d6.
(So, 28 points, roll 28d6)

All scores start at 8.
Count the number of dice that came up 1 & put that many points into Str.
came up 2 & put that many points into Dex.
came up 3 & put that many points into Con.
came up 4 & put that many points into Int.
came up 5 & put that many points into Wis.
came up 6 & put that many points into Cha.

So, I just rolled 28d6 and got...
die : quantity
1s : 6
2s : 5
3s : 4
4s : 6
5s : 3
6s : 8

Now I put
Str 6 points for a 14
Dex 5 points for a 13
Con 4 points for a 12
Int 6 points for a 14
Wis 3 points for an 11
Cha 8 points for a 15

Looks like I could be quite a few different characters. While maintaining the randomness of rolling, yet remaining balanced with the other players at 28 points

I like this. Take two...
die : quantity
1s : 4 (12 str)
2s : 5 (13 dex)
3s : 6 (14 con)
4s : 6 (14 int)
5s : 2 (10 wis)
6s : 5 (13 cha)
StoneStokes
12-31-06, 01:18 PM Also, I read your method in the thread you linked. It looks very nice, except for the sorcerer example someone posted. While I like the organic characters, my group usually doesn't, so I made my method flexible.

I want to clarify that the "sorcerer problem" only arises when the method places scores "in order" (organically, so to speak). Second, the person who pointed out that "problem" failed to realize that his score-set was not a score-set for a sorcerer character. This could be a problem even with the standard method if someone puts a low roll into Cha, then decides they want to be a sorcerer.

My method, as I posted it here, is not organic. The scores would be placed where the player wants.

Cheers,
StoneStokes
Stuntman
01-01-07, 05:11 PM I, as a DM, almost always have one character who out-shines everyone else. Yes, the DM can counteract this with specific encounters and all that jazz, but that means it's a lot of unnecessary work for the DM.
It is the nature of the 4d6 drop lowest method that gives some players significantly higher ability scores than others. Personally, I like the randomness of rolling the ability scores over point buy methods for this reason. I fully understand that one player may get something like 17, 16, 15, 14, 10, 6 while another may get 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Personally, I don't see a significant difference that this makes in the games that I've played.

If you or your players do not like this "lottery" effect where one player hits the jackpot, then I would suggest you use the point buy method. Different groups have differing opinions on whether or not all PC's should be equal in stats. If there is too much stat envy amongst your group, then just go with point buy, so no one can complain.

My experience with the 4d6 rolling method is not with some scores being too high. It is with some scores being too low (but not low enough to all a re-roll). What I find works for me is that after everyone rolls their stats, they can instead opt to use the standard point buy (25 points) to pick their stats. I find that this fixes the problem of a player's ability scores being too low.

Your rules for "balancing" out ability scores are a little complex, but I can see you are trying to bring down higher scores and increase lower scores. If it works for you, that's great. Personally, I find it too complex for my liking.

You may want to consider point buy equivlanent caps on the high end and low end. For example, you may be OK with 25 to 35 point buy equivalents and everything in between. If someone has scores that are too high, or too low, he may lower or raise them so that they are in that range.
coppro
01-01-07, 05:14 PM *Puts in an observation*

I did some trials, and 5d6 drop 2 is actually satistically worse than 7 rolls of 4d6 drop 1, dropping the lowest stat, by about 1 point).

I'm currently telling players they can even have 5d6 drop 2, in order rolled, or 4d6 drop 1, in order rolled, then reroll 1 and switch 2.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rathje 12-30-06, 04:21 PM	Alright, I've been working on a way to roll for ability scores for a while. I'm a fan of point buy, but I do enjoy the novelty of random scores. However, I had to address what my problem is with 4d6, drop the lowest: I, as a DM, almost always have one character who out-shines everyone else. Yes, the DM can counteract this with specific encounters and all that jazz, but that means it's a lot of unnecessary work for the DM. Here's my solution. It's a little rules-heavy for simply ability score generation, but I found it was the lack of restrictions that opened the door to huge differences between characters. Also keep in mind that I run somewhat lower-power campaigns. 4d6, drop the lowest, either roll-then-select or place-in-order (1st is STR, 2nd is DEX, etc.) Only one ability score may be 15-18 Only one ability score may be 15-16 Only one ability score may be 8-9 Only one ability score may be 3-9 A character does not require one score in each slot listed above, but he may not have more. If a second 17-18, for example, comes up, the player chooses which one to keep and reroll the other. When placing scores in order rolled, the player may wait until rolling all scores before choosing which score to reroll. If a character's total ability score modifier is less than +3, he must reroll all of his scores. When placing ability scores in the order rolled, a player may reduce one of his character's ability scores by 2 to raise another by 1. No ability score may be lowered below 10 through this method. Both points must be taken from the same score, though multiple sets of 2 may be taken. No score may be raised above 18. If this would reduce a character below a total +3, he may not reroll his character, as it was his choice. Example: A Fighter with STR 16, WIS 14, CHA 12 may drop WIS to 12 and CHA to 10 to raise STR to 18. Racial ability modifiers are applied after deciding whether scores must be rerolled; a character cannot be rerolled due to racial ability modifiers reducing the total modifier below +3. --- I believe that would be everything. Please keep in mind what I'm trying to focus on with this method when responding. -Rathje
Illion the Red 12-30-06, 05:21 PM	Very convoluted. I think it would be easier to have everyone roll up a set of stats and have the Players choose which set of stats they would like to use. It give all the party-balance of point-buy, but gives them the randomness of rolling.
Longarms 12-30-06, 06:10 PM	Rathje - what I really like about your system is that it is balanced and allows for low ability scores. Point buy gives minimums of eight, which I think doesn't give as much diversity as other methods (like yours). "I think it would be easier to have everyone roll up a set of stats and have the Players choose which set of stats they would like to use. It give all the party-balance of point-buy, but gives them the randomness of rolling." I really like this method, but I am curious, what do you do when two players can't agree on who gets to pick first? Or do you assign the order players pick in? Could you explain?
Illion the Red 12-30-06, 06:31 PM	I really like this method, but I am curious, what do you do when two players can't agree on who gets to pick first? Or do you assign the order players pick in? Could you explain? Actually, I was thinking that the players would all agree on one set of scores and share them all together. They could re-arrange them however they wanted individually. This way, if you have a dice-rolling god, everyone else benefits as well.
StoneStokes 12-30-06, 07:29 PM	Rathje, I like your method, but it seems too restrictive for me. You can have balanced characters even if one has two 18's (if the rest of the scores are low), or one has two 6's (if the rest are high). Have you seen the method that I suggested? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=756755 Here is a simplified version of it: Players roll 4d6-drop-one four times. The last two scores are "purchased" using Point-Buy so that the Point-Buy total of all six scores is 25 (or 28, or whatever limit you decide beforehand). If the original four scores already exceed 25 points, then the last two scores are both 8's. This allows randomness, allows for low scores, allows for high scores, allows for some rare exceptional characters, and still maintains balance (almost all characters will be very close to the Point-Buy limit that you set). You could vary this so that you roll 5 and buy 1, or roll 3 and buy 3. Cheers, StoneStokes
CryoSilver 12-30-06, 07:46 PM	Here's the methos I've adopted for when I use rolling: Roll 4d6 drop 8 times. Pick the best 6 scores. Total your modifiers; if they are less than +6, you can reroll the lowest scores until they equal or exceed +8. Ex: You roll 14, 13, 12, 16, 17, 12, 6, 9. You keep: 14, 13, 12, 16, 17, 12. Your modifiers total: +2, +1, +1, +3, +3, +1 = +11. You keep the set.
Otto the Bugbear 12-30-06, 11:58 PM	Mine is in my sig... Each player rolls 4d6-L one time. DM rolls extras to there are 6 ability scores. Players vote to keep, or erase and do it again. DM breaks tie votes, and holds ultimate veto power. More detailed explanation and reasoning are given in the link.
Razaiel 12-31-06, 12:03 AM	Personally I like the 4d6 system of ability score generation, as in my opinion point buy leads to generic ability scores. In real life there are certain people that outshine others, it isn't fair, but since when has life been fair? What you really need to do is either use an existing system, or come up with a system that you and your players can all agree on, don't force your system on them and then expect them to conform to it.
Rathje 12-31-06, 02:46 AM	Very convoluted. I think it would be easier to have everyone roll up a set of stats and have the Players choose which set of stats they would like to use. It give all the party-balance of point-buy, but gives them the randomness of rolling. Yes, I realize this is a very valid way of rolling scores. I just feel that everyone having the same set of stats is no different in terms of randomness from point-buy. I like your method, but it seems too restrictive for me. You can have balanced characters even if one has two 18's (if the rest of the scores are low), or one has two 6's (if the rest are high). I know that multiple 18's/6's can still be balanced, but I needed a place to draw the line. If I said "two scores within 15-18," a character with two 15's is very different from one with two 18's. I could come up with exceptional circumstances rules, but that would make it even more convoluted. Also, I read your method in the thread you linked. It looks very nice, except for the sorcerer example someone posted. While I like the organic characters, my group usually doesn't, so I made my method flexible. Personally I like the 4d6 system of ability score generation, as in my opinion point buy leads to generic ability scores. In real life there are certain people that outshine others, it isn't fair, but since when has life been fair? What you really need to do is either use an existing system, or come up with a system that you and your players can all agree on, don't force your system on them and then expect them to conform to it. I don't want this to turn into a Rolling vs. Point-Buy argument, so I'll keep my response brief. I like Point-Buy because it's balanced and D&D is a game, a game where I try to maintain balance. I like Rolling because it's more random and organic. This method is trying to mix the two into one big happy family. Conclusion: No Rolling vs. Point-Buy Arguments here, please. Thanks for the feed-back, Rathje
CharlieRock 12-31-06, 08:34 AM	One of my players suggested we do point buy next draft of characters :eek: !!! ... after rolling to see how many points each character gets. ;)
Board_Rider 12-31-06, 10:02 AM	I think that method is cool, and I too allow the "two for one" ability point trade option. The current method that I use, if it matters: 1. 4 players get 6d6 each (for a total of 24d6 getting rolled) and the 6 lowest dice are taken from the pool. 2. The remaining 18d6 can be grouped together in 3's in any fashion that the players wish. Notes: 1. Be careful because I have seen players put a 5 in Charisma, play a Dwarf, and suffering a 3 CHA. 2. I haven't had a problem with this method of late because nobody in my group likes gimped stats. They prefer balanced ability scores if they cannot have uber ability scores.
Otto the Bugbear 12-31-06, 10:11 AM	I remember someone else had a suggestion for keeping the randomness of rolling and the balance of point buy. Choose a number of points. Roll that many d6. (So, 28 points, roll 28d6) All scores start at 8. Count the number of dice that came up 1 & put that many points into Str. came up 2 & put that many points into Dex. came up 3 & put that many points into Con. came up 4 & put that many points into Int. came up 5 & put that many points into Wis. came up 6 & put that many points into Cha. So, I just rolled 28d6 and got... die : quantity 1s : 6 2s : 5 3s : 4 4s : 6 5s : 3 6s : 8 Now I put Str 6 points for a 14 Dex 5 points for a 13 Con 4 points for a 12 Int 6 points for a 14 Wis 3 points for an 11 Cha 8 points for a 15 Looks like I could be quite a few different characters. While maintaining the randomness of rolling, yet remaining balanced with the other players at 28 points I like this. Take two... die : quantity 1s : 4 (12 str) 2s : 5 (13 dex) 3s : 6 (14 con) 4s : 6 (14 int) 5s : 2 (10 wis) 6s : 5 (13 cha)
StoneStokes 12-31-06, 01:18 PM	Also, I read your method in the thread you linked. It looks very nice, except for the sorcerer example someone posted. While I like the organic characters, my group usually doesn't, so I made my method flexible. I want to clarify that the "sorcerer problem" only arises when the method places scores "in order" (organically, so to speak). Second, the person who pointed out that "problem" failed to realize that his score-set was not a score-set for a sorcerer character. This could be a problem even with the standard method if someone puts a low roll into Cha, then decides they want to be a sorcerer. My method, as I posted it here, is not organic. The scores would be placed where the player wants. Cheers, StoneStokes
Stuntman 01-01-07, 05:11 PM	I, as a DM, almost always have one character who out-shines everyone else. Yes, the DM can counteract this with specific encounters and all that jazz, but that means it's a lot of unnecessary work for the DM. It is the nature of the 4d6 drop lowest method that gives some players significantly higher ability scores than others. Personally, I like the randomness of rolling the ability scores over point buy methods for this reason. I fully understand that one player may get something like 17, 16, 15, 14, 10, 6 while another may get 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Personally, I don't see a significant difference that this makes in the games that I've played. If you or your players do not like this "lottery" effect where one player hits the jackpot, then I would suggest you use the point buy method. Different groups have differing opinions on whether or not all PC's should be equal in stats. If there is too much stat envy amongst your group, then just go with point buy, so no one can complain. My experience with the 4d6 rolling method is not with some scores being too high. It is with some scores being too low (but not low enough to all a re-roll). What I find works for me is that after everyone rolls their stats, they can instead opt to use the standard point buy (25 points) to pick their stats. I find that this fixes the problem of a player's ability scores being too low. Your rules for "balancing" out ability scores are a little complex, but I can see you are trying to bring down higher scores and increase lower scores. If it works for you, that's great. Personally, I find it too complex for my liking. You may want to consider point buy equivlanent caps on the high end and low end. For example, you may be OK with 25 to 35 point buy equivalents and everything in between. If someone has scores that are too high, or too low, he may lower or raise them so that they are in that range.
coppro 01-01-07, 05:14 PM	Puts in an observation I did some trials, and 5d6 drop 2 is actually satistically worse than 7 rolls of 4d6 drop 1, dropping the lowest stat, by about 1 point). I'm currently telling players they can even have 5d6 drop 2, in order rolled, or 4d6 drop 1, in order rolled, then reroll 1 and switch 2.