Ability Scores and Feat Requirements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Scores and Feat Requirements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NinjaPenguin
06-16-07, 02:48 AM Situation 1: Bob has 11 Strength. Bob puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, giving him Strength 13. He then takes the feat Power Attack, meeting the prerequisites with the aid of his magical item. He then removes the item. Thus, he temporarily loses the benefit of Power Attack (and presumably anything else he had that was based on it, such as Cleave and perhaps even some prestige class benefits from a class he no longer qualifies for?)

Situation 2: Joe has a 15 Strength. He takes Power Attack as a feat, and continues to enjoy its benefits, using it as prerequisites for other feats and perhaps a prestige class. Then Joe has a run-in with a Shadow, which damages his strength down to 12! Suddenly, Joe temporarily loses access to his Power Attack feat for not meeting the requirements of it, and, by extension, any feats and PrC abilities that he gained by virtue of having that feat.

Are either or both of these scenarios accurate?
BroadStreetBully
06-16-07, 03:06 AM mostly correct, from my understanding. when your strength drops below the requirement for Power Attack, you do lose the ability to perform Power Attack (as well as Cleave and Great Cleave).

however, PrC's only require that you have a feat (such as Power Attack), regardless of whether or not you are currently capable of using it. I don't believe a lowered STR score would disallow you access to your PrC abilities that you already possess (unless of course they help you do neater things with power attack...)

my suggestion to avoid all of this: Don't Fight Shadows. (and invest in potions of lesser restoration!)
Bob Loblaw
06-16-07, 03:11 AM Situation 1: Bob has 11 Strength. Bob puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, giving him Strength 13. He then takes the feat Power Attack, meeting the prerequisites with the aid of his magical item. He then removes the item. Thus, he temporarily loses the benefit of Power Attack (and presumably anything else he had that was based on it, such as Cleave and perhaps even some prestige class benefits from a class he no longer qualifies for?)
Mostly correct. You cannot use Power Attack, but you still have the feat (although you cannot use it) so you can use Cleave. You also still qualify for any prestige classes you already have. If you actually lost the feat, that would be a matter of debate.

Situation 2: Joe has a 15 Strength. He takes Power Attack as a feat, and continues to enjoy its benefits, using it as prerequisites for other feats and perhaps a prestige class. Then Joe has a run-in with a Shadow, which damages his strength down to 12! Suddenly, Joe temporarily loses access to his Power Attack feat for not meeting the requirements of it, and, by extension, any feats and PrC abilities that he gained by virtue of having that feat.
Again, you did not actually lose the feat. You just cannot use it. You may not be able to use some abilities (like the Frenzied Berserker's improved power attack), but you can still frenzy since you did not lose access to the prestige class.
NinjaPenguin
06-16-07, 03:19 AM Thank you! I dearly hoped I was over-reacting about this. This clears up a lot for me.
runestar
06-16-07, 03:22 AM Note that cleave actually requires you to have 13 str as well as power attack, so if your str fell below 13, you would lose the use of cleave as well.

However, for the sake of this discussion, lets assume that cleave only required power attack as a prerequisite. In this case, if your str fell below 13, you would lose the use of the power attack feat, but still retain the use of cleave. This is because cleave only requires that you possess the power attack feat, not that you actually be able to use it.

To put things into perspective, say you have the whirlwind feat and all its prerequisite feats. Even in heavy armour (which disables spring attack), you would still be able to activate whirlwind.:)

The trick comes in understanding the difference between losing a feat outright, and retaining it, but merely being unable to access it due to suddenly not meeting its requirements.:)
Bob Loblaw
06-16-07, 03:30 AM Thanks Runestar. I forgot that Cleave also had 13 Strength as a prerequisite. I don't know how I forgot since it's pretty much in the original post.
ArchonJohn
06-16-07, 06:37 AM Prerequisite scores are the permanent scores that one needs to buy the feat. A fighter with STR 11 can never qualify for a STR 13 feat, unless...

1) He buys two points of STR through level advancement.

2) He buys and reads a tome of STR +2.

3) He somehow otherwise increases his STR score PERMANENTLY (without items) to 13.

Other than that, he can't take it.
runestar
06-16-07, 06:55 AM Prerequisite scores are the permanent scores that one needs to buy the feat.
Actually, the FAQ does state that you are allowed to use magic items to boost your stats to meet requirements. A PC with 11 str and gloves of str+2 is just as eligible to take the power attack feat as a PC with a natural str score of 13.:)
Bob Loblaw
06-16-07, 11:15 AM Prerequisite scores are the permanent scores that one needs to buy the feat. A fighter with STR 11 can never qualify for a STR 13 feat, unless...

1) He buys two points of STR through level advancement.

2) He buys and reads a tome of STR +2.

3) He somehow otherwise increases his STR score PERMANENTLY (without items) to 13.

Other than that, he can't take it.

And where do you find that ruling? Nothing states this nor even hints at it in the books. The rules just state that you must have the prerequisite score. It says nothing about how you get that score.
Radiant117
06-17-07, 12:19 AM Items *can* be used to qualify for a feat, a prestige class or whatever.
Unfortunately, wearing a Headband of Intellect does not grant you skill points anymore.
Life is so unfair.
Dragonchild
06-17-07, 12:38 AM To heck with the rules, then; I personally wouldn't allow it. I can use a special item called a "bicycle" to increase my movement rate, but it sure as hell doesn't teach me proper running form. Thus, when I lose the bicycle, I'm back to my usual speed. Unless it explicity allows a character access to an ability (like an axe that grants the Cleave feat), I generally see magic items as a way to "cheat" the body's limits, not directly change them. They allow someone to do what they already can do better, but I wouldn't allow them as a launch pad to learn skills that require natural talent. The body's not neurologically connected to whatever's giving it a boost.

Similarly, with Situation 2, I'd say your call is correct, with a caveat. Joe retains the knowledge and muscle memory from training with Power Attack but is no longer physically able to do it (the body can't keep up), thus he temporarily loses the feat and any related abilities. However, the latter should be case-by-case. If a PrC ability is tied to Power Attack only because Power Attack is a prerequisite for the PrC itself and not the ability, it should be allowed. For example, Strength 12 shouldn't have any impact on a detect evil ability granted by a PrC requiring Power Attack. If Cleave is granted as a PrC ability, however, Joe should lose that ability because it's obviously Strength-dependent.
godbeepit
06-17-07, 12:43 AM Wait a minute, I could've sworn it was the exact opposite (for feats as prerequisites). I agree losing strength would mean you can't use power attack, but it sounds like you're just trying to word it funny and make it sound like you do? I dunno, maybe I'm just wrong but I always under the impression that you lost everything else regardless of the fact that the subsequent feats had an ability score as a prerequisite. I figured when cleave says Str 13 as a prerequisite it's a handy reminder for those of us with low wisdom scores.
TheWerg
06-17-07, 01:00 AM Mostly correct. You cannot use Power Attack, but you still have the feat (although you cannot use it) so you can use Cleave. You also still qualify for any prestige classes you already have. If you actually lost the feat, that would be a matter of debate.

Again, you did not actually lose the feat. You just cannot use it. You may not be able to use some abilities (like the Frenzied Berserker's improved power attack), but you can still frenzy since you did not lose access to the prestige class.

I'm 99% sure that this is the accurate ruling. That's what I've read, as well as what other people have said.

To heck with the rules, then; I personally wouldn't allow it. I can use a special item called a "bicycle" to increase my movement rate, but it sure as hell doesn't teach me proper running form. Thus, when I lose the bicycle, I'm back to my usual speed. Unless it explicity allows a character access to an ability (like an axe that grants the Cleave feat), I generally see magic items as a way to "cheat" the body's limits, not directly change them. They allow someone to do what they already can do better, but I wouldn't allow them as a launch pad to learn skills that require natural talent. The body's not neurologically connected to whatever's giving it a boost.

That's not exactly a good example, I'd say; for instance, let's say I had a feat called "Momentum" with prerequisite "Base land speed 50 feet" or something along those lines (I'll assume a bicycle is a magic item which increases your base land speed by 20 feet). Momentum would give me 2d6 extra damage when I moved 50 feet or more in a round because I know how to use my momentum to my advantage. On the bicycle, I could use it, because I could move 50 feet and pick up the required momentum. However, if I got off the bicycle, I wouldn't be able to do it, since I couldn't get the right momentum. However, I could still learn to use the feat through training on my bicycle. Therefore, I'd only lose the feat if I got off the bicycle, and was thus physically incapable of using my practiced ability.
runestar
06-17-07, 01:03 AM Here is the relevant article from the FAQ.
A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex
score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item?

Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item.

Which makes sense. Consider many of the epic feats and their ridiculous stat requirements. It would be impossible to qualify for them if you were not allowed to benefit from stat-boosting items...
maharai23
06-17-07, 01:25 AM Previous post is correct, with one additon. If you lose the benefit of a feat, that is for all purposes. This includes:

1) Using the Feat.
2) Using any feat dependent on that feat.
3) Any PrC abilities that require that feat. (one of the benefits of improved two-weapon fighting is that it allows you to take the Tempest PrC).
Ranuth
06-17-07, 01:38 AM Situation 1: Bob has 11 Strength. Bob puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, giving him Strength 13. He then takes the feat Power Attack, meeting the prerequisites with the aid of his magical item. He then removes the item. Thus, he temporarily loses the benefit of Power Attack (and presumably anything else he had that was based on it, such as Cleave and perhaps even some prestige class benefits from a class he no longer qualifies for?)

Situation 2: Joe has a 15 Strength. He takes Power Attack as a feat, and continues to enjoy its benefits, using it as prerequisites for other feats and perhaps a prestige class. Then Joe has a run-in with a Shadow, which damages his strength down to 12! Suddenly, Joe temporarily loses access to his Power Attack feat for not meeting the requirements of it, and, by extension, any feats and PrC abilities that he gained by virtue of having that feat.

If I am not mistaken, the Gauntlets of Ogre Power would not allow Bob to take this feat. His strength would already have to be at 13, and not enhanced by magical Items.

As for the second, I think that the feat would still be usable. The prerequisites are there as a balance. I'd personally allow the use of the feats even though they have dropped below the requirements to take the feats, because without out them, they'd just suck anyway.

*EDIT*
After reading more of the posts of the subject, it seems that I was incorrect about my first answer. However, I wouldn't personally allow that in a game if I were to run it.
Dragonchild
06-17-07, 02:59 AM let's say I had a feat called "Momentum" with prerequisite "Base land speed 50 feet" or something along those lines (I'll assume a bicycle is a magic item which increases your base land speed by 20 feet). . . On the bicycle, I could use it, because I could move 50 feet and pick up the required momentum. However, if I got off the bicycle, I wouldn't be able to do it, since I couldn't get the right momentum. However, I could still learn to use the feat through training on my bicycle. Therefore, I'd only lose the feat if I got off the bicycle, and was thus physically incapable of using my practiced ability.Okay, but having learned to use it ONLY with the assistance of your bicycle, let's say you then gain the ability to move 50 feet per move action WITHOUT the aid of a bicycle. You don't need the bicycle anymore to "qualify for the feat", but having trained your body to use the feat only by relying on this item, you haven't learned how to rely exclusively on your body. First time you try to use "Momentum" in your post-bicycle days, your body will want to revert to its "with bicycle" form. . . and it will mess up horribly. Your ability to use the feat isn't tied to how the bicycle increases your speed; it's tied to how your body learned to use the bicycle itself. In short, you haven't learned the feat at all. To learn the true "Momentum" feat, you need to learn something that improves your body's natural speed -- proper running form, for example. And as I said before, you can't do that by relying on a bicycle.

You can, however, learn a "Bicycle Momentum" feat, which has the prerequisite of "Bicycle Proficiency". But that's entirely different. You see how relying on an item in training doesn't get you anywhere? This is why most people train with a handicap. For example, Roman legionnaires trained in armor that was heavier than what they wore in battle. Train, then amplify [with magic items].

Fantasy isn't reality, but I'll disagree when D&D rules have the principles exactly backwards.
Bob Loblaw
06-17-07, 03:09 AM Previous post is correct, with one additon. If you lose the benefit of a feat, that is for all purposes. This includes:

1) Using the Feat.
2) Using any feat dependent on that feat.
3) Any PrC abilities that require that feat. (one of the benefits of improved two-weapon fighting is that it allows you to take the Tempest PrC).

Actually, you do not lose anything dependent on that feat nor do you lose any prestige class abilities. You did not lose the feat. You are unable to use the feat. There is a significant difference.

So in the example above, the character cannot use Power Attack. He also cannot use Cleave because it also has a prerequisite of Str 13. Now if there was no prerequisite of Str 13, then he would be able to use Cleave. Nearly all feats in a chain have the prerequisites from the earlier feats.

The same holds true for prestige classes. If your Dexterity drops to 11, you are no longer able to wield two weapons with the same level of ease. You have the skill and knowledge, you just don't have the ability anymore. If you choose to still wield two weapons (let's say longsword and shortsword), your attack penalties move from -2/-2 to -4/-8. With the Tempest, you still get the +1 to +3 bonus to AC if you use both weapons. The Ambidexterity will change the penalties to -3/-7 or -2/-5. You retain your Two-Weapon Versatility. You also retain your Two-Weapon Spring Attack. None of these abilities actually are dependent on Two-Weapon Fighting. They make Two-Weapon Fighting easier, but since Two-Weapon Fighting in itself does not require a feat, nothing is actually lost here. Now if the abilities mentioned the use of the feat then they would be useless until the feat is usable again.

The relevant ruling is in the PHB on page 87. It says that you cannot use the feat if you no longer meet the prerequisites. It does not say that the feat goes away. It also does not mention anything about losing access to the rest of the feats or class abilities that use that feat as a prerequisite.
Bob Loblaw
06-17-07, 03:29 AM Something that should be kept in mind is that the game designers assumed that the characters would be built with 25 point buy. This means that many feats and prestige classes would be cut off if you could not use magical enhancements to gain them. Take a look at some of the prerequisites just in the PHB.

For fighters, they would probably not be able to take Power Attack, Dodge and Combat Expertise. This would already be 15 of their 25 points. Putting the rest of the stats at 10, he's already spent 21 points. Not much left over for actually expanding the character's abilities. He didn't even try to do very much.

God forbid he actually wants to focus on Two-Weapon Fighting and still be able to deal some damage. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting requires a Dexterity of 19 and you have to be level 11. This means that for any character to qualify at 11th level, they must start with a 17 Dexterity and put both of their bonus points into Dex. Only elves and halflings really have a chance here. 17 Dexterity and 10 in all other stats is 23 points. Elves and halflings can get away with using only 18 points. The investment is a bit steep.

This would also favor casters more than the system already does. Most of the feats in the PHB that casters would take do not have such hefty prerequisites. Not a single feat in the PHB that caster would take to enhance their magic requires any minimum stat. Most do not have any prerequisites at all.

Magic Items are meant to give you greater abilities. Enhancing your Strength magically or not does not really change how you use that Strength. You already know how to use your muscles. Now you can do it better. That's it. That's all the magic items do. When the item is no longer acting on you, then you realize that you just don't have what it takes anymore. You certainly know how to hit harder (in the case of Power Attack), you just aren't physically capable anymore. It's the difference between knowledge and ability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NinjaPenguin 06-16-07, 02:48 AM	Situation 1: Bob has 11 Strength. Bob puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, giving him Strength 13. He then takes the feat Power Attack, meeting the prerequisites with the aid of his magical item. He then removes the item. Thus, he temporarily loses the benefit of Power Attack (and presumably anything else he had that was based on it, such as Cleave and perhaps even some prestige class benefits from a class he no longer qualifies for?) Situation 2: Joe has a 15 Strength. He takes Power Attack as a feat, and continues to enjoy its benefits, using it as prerequisites for other feats and perhaps a prestige class. Then Joe has a run-in with a Shadow, which damages his strength down to 12! Suddenly, Joe temporarily loses access to his Power Attack feat for not meeting the requirements of it, and, by extension, any feats and PrC abilities that he gained by virtue of having that feat. Are either or both of these scenarios accurate?
BroadStreetBully 06-16-07, 03:06 AM	mostly correct, from my understanding. when your strength drops below the requirement for Power Attack, you do lose the ability to perform Power Attack (as well as Cleave and Great Cleave). however, PrC's only require that you have a feat (such as Power Attack), regardless of whether or not you are currently capable of using it. I don't believe a lowered STR score would disallow you access to your PrC abilities that you already possess (unless of course they help you do neater things with power attack...) my suggestion to avoid all of this: Don't Fight Shadows. (and invest in potions of lesser restoration!)
Bob Loblaw 06-16-07, 03:11 AM	Situation 1: Bob has 11 Strength. Bob puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, giving him Strength 13. He then takes the feat Power Attack, meeting the prerequisites with the aid of his magical item. He then removes the item. Thus, he temporarily loses the benefit of Power Attack (and presumably anything else he had that was based on it, such as Cleave and perhaps even some prestige class benefits from a class he no longer qualifies for?) Mostly correct. You cannot use Power Attack, but you still have the feat (although you cannot use it) so you can use Cleave. You also still qualify for any prestige classes you already have. If you actually lost the feat, that would be a matter of debate. Situation 2: Joe has a 15 Strength. He takes Power Attack as a feat, and continues to enjoy its benefits, using it as prerequisites for other feats and perhaps a prestige class. Then Joe has a run-in with a Shadow, which damages his strength down to 12! Suddenly, Joe temporarily loses access to his Power Attack feat for not meeting the requirements of it, and, by extension, any feats and PrC abilities that he gained by virtue of having that feat. Again, you did not actually lose the feat. You just cannot use it. You may not be able to use some abilities (like the Frenzied Berserker's improved power attack), but you can still frenzy since you did not lose access to the prestige class.
NinjaPenguin 06-16-07, 03:19 AM	Thank you! I dearly hoped I was over-reacting about this. This clears up a lot for me.
runestar 06-16-07, 03:22 AM	Note that cleave actually requires you to have 13 str as well as power attack, so if your str fell below 13, you would lose the use of cleave as well. However, for the sake of this discussion, lets assume that cleave only required power attack as a prerequisite. In this case, if your str fell below 13, you would lose the use of the power attack feat, but still retain the use of cleave. This is because cleave only requires that you possess the power attack feat, not that you actually be able to use it. To put things into perspective, say you have the whirlwind feat and all its prerequisite feats. Even in heavy armour (which disables spring attack), you would still be able to activate whirlwind.:) The trick comes in understanding the difference between losing a feat outright, and retaining it, but merely being unable to access it due to suddenly not meeting its requirements.:)
Bob Loblaw 06-16-07, 03:30 AM	Thanks Runestar. I forgot that Cleave also had 13 Strength as a prerequisite. I don't know how I forgot since it's pretty much in the original post.
ArchonJohn 06-16-07, 06:37 AM	Prerequisite scores are the permanent scores that one needs to buy the feat. A fighter with STR 11 can never qualify for a STR 13 feat, unless... 1) He buys two points of STR through level advancement. 2) He buys and reads a tome of STR +2. 3) He somehow otherwise increases his STR score PERMANENTLY (without items) to 13. Other than that, he can't take it.
runestar 06-16-07, 06:55 AM	Prerequisite scores are the permanent scores that one needs to buy the feat. Actually, the FAQ does state that you are allowed to use magic items to boost your stats to meet requirements. A PC with 11 str and gloves of str+2 is just as eligible to take the power attack feat as a PC with a natural str score of 13.:)
Bob Loblaw 06-16-07, 11:15 AM	Prerequisite scores are the permanent scores that one needs to buy the feat. A fighter with STR 11 can never qualify for a STR 13 feat, unless... 1) He buys two points of STR through level advancement. 2) He buys and reads a tome of STR +2. 3) He somehow otherwise increases his STR score PERMANENTLY (without items) to 13. Other than that, he can't take it. And where do you find that ruling? Nothing states this nor even hints at it in the books. The rules just state that you must have the prerequisite score. It says nothing about how you get that score.
Radiant117 06-17-07, 12:19 AM	Items can be used to qualify for a feat, a prestige class or whatever. Unfortunately, wearing a Headband of Intellect does not grant you skill points anymore. Life is so unfair.
Dragonchild 06-17-07, 12:38 AM	To heck with the rules, then; I personally wouldn't allow it. I can use a special item called a "bicycle" to increase my movement rate, but it sure as hell doesn't teach me proper running form. Thus, when I lose the bicycle, I'm back to my usual speed. Unless it explicity allows a character access to an ability (like an axe that grants the Cleave feat), I generally see magic items as a way to "cheat" the body's limits, not directly change them. They allow someone to do what they already can do better, but I wouldn't allow them as a launch pad to learn skills that require natural talent. The body's not neurologically connected to whatever's giving it a boost. Similarly, with Situation 2, I'd say your call is correct, with a caveat. Joe retains the knowledge and muscle memory from training with Power Attack but is no longer physically able to do it (the body can't keep up), thus he temporarily loses the feat and any related abilities. However, the latter should be case-by-case. If a PrC ability is tied to Power Attack only because Power Attack is a prerequisite for the PrC itself and not the ability, it should be allowed. For example, Strength 12 shouldn't have any impact on a detect evil ability granted by a PrC requiring Power Attack. If Cleave is granted as a PrC ability, however, Joe should lose that ability because it's obviously Strength-dependent.
godbeepit 06-17-07, 12:43 AM	Wait a minute, I could've sworn it was the exact opposite (for feats as prerequisites). I agree losing strength would mean you can't use power attack, but it sounds like you're just trying to word it funny and make it sound like you do? I dunno, maybe I'm just wrong but I always under the impression that you lost everything else regardless of the fact that the subsequent feats had an ability score as a prerequisite. I figured when cleave says Str 13 as a prerequisite it's a handy reminder for those of us with low wisdom scores.
TheWerg 06-17-07, 01:00 AM	Mostly correct. You cannot use Power Attack, but you still have the feat (although you cannot use it) so you can use Cleave. You also still qualify for any prestige classes you already have. If you actually lost the feat, that would be a matter of debate. Again, you did not actually lose the feat. You just cannot use it. You may not be able to use some abilities (like the Frenzied Berserker's improved power attack), but you can still frenzy since you did not lose access to the prestige class. I'm 99% sure that this is the accurate ruling. That's what I've read, as well as what other people have said. To heck with the rules, then; I personally wouldn't allow it. I can use a special item called a "bicycle" to increase my movement rate, but it sure as hell doesn't teach me proper running form. Thus, when I lose the bicycle, I'm back to my usual speed. Unless it explicity allows a character access to an ability (like an axe that grants the Cleave feat), I generally see magic items as a way to "cheat" the body's limits, not directly change them. They allow someone to do what they already can do better, but I wouldn't allow them as a launch pad to learn skills that require natural talent. The body's not neurologically connected to whatever's giving it a boost. That's not exactly a good example, I'd say; for instance, let's say I had a feat called "Momentum" with prerequisite "Base land speed 50 feet" or something along those lines (I'll assume a bicycle is a magic item which increases your base land speed by 20 feet). Momentum would give me 2d6 extra damage when I moved 50 feet or more in a round because I know how to use my momentum to my advantage. On the bicycle, I could use it, because I could move 50 feet and pick up the required momentum. However, if I got off the bicycle, I wouldn't be able to do it, since I couldn't get the right momentum. However, I could still learn to use the feat through training on my bicycle. Therefore, I'd only lose the feat if I got off the bicycle, and was thus physically incapable of using my practiced ability.
runestar 06-17-07, 01:03 AM	Here is the relevant article from the FAQ. A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-Weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item. Which makes sense. Consider many of the epic feats and their ridiculous stat requirements. It would be impossible to qualify for them if you were not allowed to benefit from stat-boosting items...
maharai23 06-17-07, 01:25 AM	Previous post is correct, with one additon. If you lose the benefit of a feat, that is for all purposes. This includes: 1) Using the Feat. 2) Using any feat dependent on that feat. 3) Any PrC abilities that require that feat. (one of the benefits of improved two-weapon fighting is that it allows you to take the Tempest PrC).
Ranuth 06-17-07, 01:38 AM	Situation 1: Bob has 11 Strength. Bob puts on Gauntlets of Ogre Power, giving him Strength 13. He then takes the feat Power Attack, meeting the prerequisites with the aid of his magical item. He then removes the item. Thus, he temporarily loses the benefit of Power Attack (and presumably anything else he had that was based on it, such as Cleave and perhaps even some prestige class benefits from a class he no longer qualifies for?) Situation 2: Joe has a 15 Strength. He takes Power Attack as a feat, and continues to enjoy its benefits, using it as prerequisites for other feats and perhaps a prestige class. Then Joe has a run-in with a Shadow, which damages his strength down to 12! Suddenly, Joe temporarily loses access to his Power Attack feat for not meeting the requirements of it, and, by extension, any feats and PrC abilities that he gained by virtue of having that feat. If I am not mistaken, the Gauntlets of Ogre Power would not allow Bob to take this feat. His strength would already have to be at 13, and not enhanced by magical Items. As for the second, I think that the feat would still be usable. The prerequisites are there as a balance. I'd personally allow the use of the feats even though they have dropped below the requirements to take the feats, because without out them, they'd just suck anyway. EDIT After reading more of the posts of the subject, it seems that I was incorrect about my first answer. However, I wouldn't personally allow that in a game if I were to run it.
Dragonchild 06-17-07, 02:59 AM	let's say I had a feat called "Momentum" with prerequisite "Base land speed 50 feet" or something along those lines (I'll assume a bicycle is a magic item which increases your base land speed by 20 feet). . . On the bicycle, I could use it, because I could move 50 feet and pick up the required momentum. However, if I got off the bicycle, I wouldn't be able to do it, since I couldn't get the right momentum. However, I could still learn to use the feat through training on my bicycle. Therefore, I'd only lose the feat if I got off the bicycle, and was thus physically incapable of using my practiced ability.Okay, but having learned to use it ONLY with the assistance of your bicycle, let's say you then gain the ability to move 50 feet per move action WITHOUT the aid of a bicycle. You don't need the bicycle anymore to "qualify for the feat", but having trained your body to use the feat only by relying on this item, you haven't learned how to rely exclusively on your body. First time you try to use "Momentum" in your post-bicycle days, your body will want to revert to its "with bicycle" form. . . and it will mess up horribly. Your ability to use the feat isn't tied to how the bicycle increases your speed; it's tied to how your body learned to use the bicycle itself. In short, you haven't learned the feat at all. To learn the true "Momentum" feat, you need to learn something that improves your body's natural speed -- proper running form, for example. And as I said before, you can't do that by relying on a bicycle. You can, however, learn a "Bicycle Momentum" feat, which has the prerequisite of "Bicycle Proficiency". But that's entirely different. You see how relying on an item in training doesn't get you anywhere? This is why most people train with a handicap. For example, Roman legionnaires trained in armor that was heavier than what they wore in battle. Train, then amplify [with magic items]. Fantasy isn't reality, but I'll disagree when D&D rules have the principles exactly backwards.
Bob Loblaw 06-17-07, 03:09 AM	Previous post is correct, with one additon. If you lose the benefit of a feat, that is for all purposes. This includes: 1) Using the Feat. 2) Using any feat dependent on that feat. 3) Any PrC abilities that require that feat. (one of the benefits of improved two-weapon fighting is that it allows you to take the Tempest PrC). Actually, you do not lose anything dependent on that feat nor do you lose any prestige class abilities. You did not lose the feat. You are unable to use the feat. There is a significant difference. So in the example above, the character cannot use Power Attack. He also cannot use Cleave because it also has a prerequisite of Str 13. Now if there was no prerequisite of Str 13, then he would be able to use Cleave. Nearly all feats in a chain have the prerequisites from the earlier feats. The same holds true for prestige classes. If your Dexterity drops to 11, you are no longer able to wield two weapons with the same level of ease. You have the skill and knowledge, you just don't have the ability anymore. If you choose to still wield two weapons (let's say longsword and shortsword), your attack penalties move from -2/-2 to -4/-8. With the Tempest, you still get the +1 to +3 bonus to AC if you use both weapons. The Ambidexterity will change the penalties to -3/-7 or -2/-5. You retain your Two-Weapon Versatility. You also retain your Two-Weapon Spring Attack. None of these abilities actually are dependent on Two-Weapon Fighting. They make Two-Weapon Fighting easier, but since Two-Weapon Fighting in itself does not require a feat, nothing is actually lost here. Now if the abilities mentioned the use of the feat then they would be useless until the feat is usable again. The relevant ruling is in the PHB on page 87. It says that you cannot use the feat if you no longer meet the prerequisites. It does not say that the feat goes away. It also does not mention anything about losing access to the rest of the feats or class abilities that use that feat as a prerequisite.
Bob Loblaw 06-17-07, 03:29 AM	Something that should be kept in mind is that the game designers assumed that the characters would be built with 25 point buy. This means that many feats and prestige classes would be cut off if you could not use magical enhancements to gain them. Take a look at some of the prerequisites just in the PHB. For fighters, they would probably not be able to take Power Attack, Dodge and Combat Expertise. This would already be 15 of their 25 points. Putting the rest of the stats at 10, he's already spent 21 points. Not much left over for actually expanding the character's abilities. He didn't even try to do very much. God forbid he actually wants to focus on Two-Weapon Fighting and still be able to deal some damage. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting requires a Dexterity of 19 and you have to be level 11. This means that for any character to qualify at 11th level, they must start with a 17 Dexterity and put both of their bonus points into Dex. Only elves and halflings really have a chance here. 17 Dexterity and 10 in all other stats is 23 points. Elves and halflings can get away with using only 18 points. The investment is a bit steep. This would also favor casters more than the system already does. Most of the feats in the PHB that casters would take do not have such hefty prerequisites. Not a single feat in the PHB that caster would take to enhance their magic requires any minimum stat. Most do not have any prerequisites at all. Magic Items are meant to give you greater abilities. Enhancing your Strength magically or not does not really change how you use that Strength. You already know how to use your muscles. Now you can do it better. That's it. That's all the magic items do. When the item is no longer acting on you, then you realize that you just don't have what it takes anymore. You certainly know how to hit harder (in the case of Power Attack), you just aren't physically capable anymore. It's the difference between knowledge and ability.