about fines for magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

about fines for magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Golden Zealot
03-26-06, 02:58 PM i have a large city where use of magic is illegal unless the spell caster is registered with the mage's guild. i was wondering how much you think the fine should be for using magic without being registered, and how much it might cost to register
shadowfox628
03-26-06, 03:05 PM I honestly have no formula for you to use... However, the fine should depend on a few thingd (if you don't mind getting in-depth about it):
1) Spell Level
2) Lethal or non-lethal?
3) What type? (Divine Vs. Arcane)
4) Will-save related?
5) Class-related, Supernatural, or Extrodinary?

Well, you can't stop Clerics from healing others, but you certainly can try to stop people from using Charm Person.
Golden Zealot
03-26-06, 03:13 PM to be honest, i dont see how anyone in the game world could know any of those without interrogating the player, which is probably more fuss than it's worth. i was thinking more of a flat fine for any unregistered spellcasting. If it caused any considerable damage to people or property the spell caster would face those charges separately, as if she had caused the damage by any other means
DracoPhoenix
03-26-06, 03:38 PM If magic is a big no no, then try 500gp x the spells level (healing spells exempt).

As for the joinging fee, their highest castable spell level x their caster level * X (e.g. 100gp - you'll have to play with it as you don't want to price it out of the market), with an annual renewal fee of 1/10th the above.
Andorxor
03-26-06, 03:50 PM How can they know that a spell was cast,but not which spell?
Golden Zealot
03-26-06, 03:54 PM How can they know that a spell was cast,but not which spell?
because most guards aren't trained wizards. They would recognize it as magic, but i dont think they'd know which spell it is or which level it is, they would just have to check for a lisence or charge them a fine.
Mitchell
03-26-06, 10:25 PM Well, you mention the mage's guild, so I would say divine would be exempt entirely, unless the wizards control the church also. The offense may be reported, but a little investigation would reveal that the caster wasn't a mage.
As far as the fine, maybe 100gp X (spell level squared), minimum 50 gp. 0 level= 50, 1st level=100, 2nd= 400, 3rd= 900, up to 9th level= 8100.
The bigger thing is just how powerful is the guild? Would the guards care? Why should they deal with the hassle of reporting every offense if the money is going to a private enterprise who's sole purpose is to gather power?
The mayor wants income for the city as a whole... Pay for improvements, hire guards, etc. What's in this for them?
How exactly does the guild enforce it's rule? Send out teams of wizards to kill anyone who doesn't pay the fine? Sounds like organized crime now. Is this the wizards guild or the thieves guild?
If the guild is effectively in control of the city, then okay, I guess it works, but the alignment of the city(or the guild in any event) would be lawful what? Break the rules and you pay the price, but again, how do they enforce the rules? Good seems unlikely, since they aren't content to live and let live. We aren't talking about keeping the peace, here, we're talking about the simple casting of an identify spell becoming a criminal act. Pretty harsh.
Lord Ian Stark
03-26-06, 10:56 PM because most guards aren't trained wizards. They would recognize it as magic, but i dont think they'd know which spell it is or which level it is, they would just have to check for a lisence or charge them a fine.

So only spells that had a verbal and/or somatic component and was seen/heard by a guard is under scrutiny?

What about items that can cast spells with a simple word?

What about supernatural abilities or spell like abilities?

I ask these questions because you may think we're knitpicking but trust me, your PC's will test the cities "ability" to detect spell use.

Not all spells have bells and whistles with colorful explosions you know. ;)
Techneon
03-27-06, 01:43 AM You could make it a large area with high level scrying eyes dotted about the place for high surveillance of all these things, that way guards don't need to know anything, aside from the telepathic orders given to them to go and arrest -blank- who is currently at -blank- part of the city.

As for the fines, I'd make it 100* spell level squared, and if they can't pay it up front, they apply for bail and then they've got 2 weeks before a court hearing :)
Rosisha
03-27-06, 02:16 AM I played in a world were using magic resulted in death. My DM hated wizards. So we got into a fight in a city and I used burning hands to escape. the Guard came after us and arrested us and i was able to convince them (using illusion) that I was a powerful cleric and not a wizard. I even had converts to my new religion, which was, of course, a fire god.

The DM gave me the win when I rped the interogation. I used prestidigitation to give myself an illusion of a cut being made as I drew my dagger over my skin (the DM rolled spot checks but none noticed that my dagger didn't have blood on it). I think used flash paper to have flames cover my arm... which was suddenly and magically healed!

And there was great rejoicing at a new cleric in town.

I even made money by preaching on a street corner (5 copper to rent, but my clerical displays were alot cooler then the other clerics).

Rosisha
Kadasbrass
03-27-06, 03:10 AM Spells can be (somewhat) identified by interviewing wittiness to the spell. “A small bead of flame flying through the air for a brief second and then bursting into flames” migth be indicator for a fireball. Examining the area affected can also generate clues (such as radius of the blast). After the interview(s) an investigator might be able to generate a small list of possible spells that were cast (assuming of course that the investigator has ranks in spellcraft).

Also a city where spell casting is illegal might have some (a lot or all) of the guards having a few ranks in spellcraft.
Golden Zealot
03-27-06, 10:14 AM this idea was mainly inspired by exactly the same thing when i saw it in baldur's gate 2; whatever spell you cast you got warned, then attacked, but could always go and buy permission. I just dont want cowled wizards popping up killing people, i would rather have the town guard just fine people for magic. I dont think it would matter that the cant identify all kinds of magic or know what level they are because this law was made by the duke, not the mage's guild, and the duke and the guard dont know much about magic other than it is flashy and can cause a lot of damage. Even if they knew who was casting what spell, the mages guild wouldnt care as they resent the duke trying to control them, all they can do is give certain people permission to cast spells. They could test them, but they find it easier to charge them unless they clearly present a threat to the city, so that's why i'm just looking for a certain amount to charge players for casting an obvious spell, and a certain amount to charge for permission. And also this means the players must be more tactical and use lessy flashy and obvious magic within the city. Also, divine spell casters must register with a church of their faith, or nearest to it. it's not a very popular law and it's not very well enforced, but the public believe what they are told about magic being dangerous. Also the duke is a little bit paranoid because last time the guild got too much power it killed the reigning duke, raised an undead army, and turned the duchy into a military controlled state, which was only destroyed when all neighbouring nations allied against them, which is why the duke wants to keep them on a tight leash.
stabs
03-27-06, 10:21 AM I think it would depend on if the government in your city is evil or not.

For example, in my campaign, the emperor has banned magick, and there's no fines or anything, you just get executed (or if it's minor like a cantrip, you lose your fingers).

Another possible fine that could be more useful to a city run by Mages is rather than a monetary penalty, you have to donate your energies to a "spell pool."

For example, someone is caught casting Magick Missile, they have to expend all their first level slots for that day into this Spell Pool. That could power any number of nefarious of benevolent means.
OravennasBrother
03-27-06, 10:35 AM THe Crime described is very similar to the RL medieval civil crime "BReach of Guild Priviledge"
Such a crime involed a fine based on the prestige and wealth of the guild and the percieved sligh as well as who was judging the issue. Thus a handmill vilation of the millers guild monopoly on milling might bring a modest fine (if any) out in the countryside where the lord of themanor would have a deal of sympathy for his poorer holders, but in the city, where the guilds often appointed justices the fine might be enough to impoverish a family and force some of them into slavery/indentured servitude (depending on hte time frame slavery was legal in much of Europe). Given the power of Magic, a wizards guild will likely have enormous power within their city and the fines could easily be crippling to a low level spellcaster. GIven D&D economics 500 GP per violation might be appropriate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golden Zealot 03-26-06, 02:58 PM	i have a large city where use of magic is illegal unless the spell caster is registered with the mage's guild. i was wondering how much you think the fine should be for using magic without being registered, and how much it might cost to register
shadowfox628 03-26-06, 03:05 PM	I honestly have no formula for you to use... However, the fine should depend on a few thingd (if you don't mind getting in-depth about it): 1) Spell Level 2) Lethal or non-lethal? 3) What type? (Divine Vs. Arcane) 4) Will-save related? 5) Class-related, Supernatural, or Extrodinary? Well, you can't stop Clerics from healing others, but you certainly can try to stop people from using Charm Person.
Golden Zealot 03-26-06, 03:13 PM	to be honest, i dont see how anyone in the game world could know any of those without interrogating the player, which is probably more fuss than it's worth. i was thinking more of a flat fine for any unregistered spellcasting. If it caused any considerable damage to people or property the spell caster would face those charges separately, as if she had caused the damage by any other means
DracoPhoenix 03-26-06, 03:38 PM	If magic is a big no no, then try 500gp x the spells level (healing spells exempt). As for the joinging fee, their highest castable spell level x their caster level * X (e.g. 100gp - you'll have to play with it as you don't want to price it out of the market), with an annual renewal fee of 1/10th the above.
Andorxor 03-26-06, 03:50 PM	How can they know that a spell was cast,but not which spell?
Golden Zealot 03-26-06, 03:54 PM	How can they know that a spell was cast,but not which spell? because most guards aren't trained wizards. They would recognize it as magic, but i dont think they'd know which spell it is or which level it is, they would just have to check for a lisence or charge them a fine.
Mitchell 03-26-06, 10:25 PM	Well, you mention the mage's guild, so I would say divine would be exempt entirely, unless the wizards control the church also. The offense may be reported, but a little investigation would reveal that the caster wasn't a mage. As far as the fine, maybe 100gp X (spell level squared), minimum 50 gp. 0 level= 50, 1st level=100, 2nd= 400, 3rd= 900, up to 9th level= 8100. The bigger thing is just how powerful is the guild? Would the guards care? Why should they deal with the hassle of reporting every offense if the money is going to a private enterprise who's sole purpose is to gather power? The mayor wants income for the city as a whole... Pay for improvements, hire guards, etc. What's in this for them? How exactly does the guild enforce it's rule? Send out teams of wizards to kill anyone who doesn't pay the fine? Sounds like organized crime now. Is this the wizards guild or the thieves guild? If the guild is effectively in control of the city, then okay, I guess it works, but the alignment of the city(or the guild in any event) would be lawful what? Break the rules and you pay the price, but again, how do they enforce the rules? Good seems unlikely, since they aren't content to live and let live. We aren't talking about keeping the peace, here, we're talking about the simple casting of an identify spell becoming a criminal act. Pretty harsh.
Lord Ian Stark 03-26-06, 10:56 PM	because most guards aren't trained wizards. They would recognize it as magic, but i dont think they'd know which spell it is or which level it is, they would just have to check for a lisence or charge them a fine. So only spells that had a verbal and/or somatic component and was seen/heard by a guard is under scrutiny? What about items that can cast spells with a simple word? What about supernatural abilities or spell like abilities? I ask these questions because you may think we're knitpicking but trust me, your PC's will test the cities "ability" to detect spell use. Not all spells have bells and whistles with colorful explosions you know. ;)
Techneon 03-27-06, 01:43 AM	You could make it a large area with high level scrying eyes dotted about the place for high surveillance of all these things, that way guards don't need to know anything, aside from the telepathic orders given to them to go and arrest -blank- who is currently at -blank- part of the city. As for the fines, I'd make it 100* spell level squared, and if they can't pay it up front, they apply for bail and then they've got 2 weeks before a court hearing :)
Rosisha 03-27-06, 02:16 AM	I played in a world were using magic resulted in death. My DM hated wizards. So we got into a fight in a city and I used burning hands to escape. the Guard came after us and arrested us and i was able to convince them (using illusion) that I was a powerful cleric and not a wizard. I even had converts to my new religion, which was, of course, a fire god. The DM gave me the win when I rped the interogation. I used prestidigitation to give myself an illusion of a cut being made as I drew my dagger over my skin (the DM rolled spot checks but none noticed that my dagger didn't have blood on it). I think used flash paper to have flames cover my arm... which was suddenly and magically healed! And there was great rejoicing at a new cleric in town. I even made money by preaching on a street corner (5 copper to rent, but my clerical displays were alot cooler then the other clerics). Rosisha
Kadasbrass 03-27-06, 03:10 AM	Spells can be (somewhat) identified by interviewing wittiness to the spell. “A small bead of flame flying through the air for a brief second and then bursting into flames” migth be indicator for a fireball. Examining the area affected can also generate clues (such as radius of the blast). After the interview(s) an investigator might be able to generate a small list of possible spells that were cast (assuming of course that the investigator has ranks in spellcraft). Also a city where spell casting is illegal might have some (a lot or all) of the guards having a few ranks in spellcraft.
Golden Zealot 03-27-06, 10:14 AM	this idea was mainly inspired by exactly the same thing when i saw it in baldur's gate 2; whatever spell you cast you got warned, then attacked, but could always go and buy permission. I just dont want cowled wizards popping up killing people, i would rather have the town guard just fine people for magic. I dont think it would matter that the cant identify all kinds of magic or know what level they are because this law was made by the duke, not the mage's guild, and the duke and the guard dont know much about magic other than it is flashy and can cause a lot of damage. Even if they knew who was casting what spell, the mages guild wouldnt care as they resent the duke trying to control them, all they can do is give certain people permission to cast spells. They could test them, but they find it easier to charge them unless they clearly present a threat to the city, so that's why i'm just looking for a certain amount to charge players for casting an obvious spell, and a certain amount to charge for permission. And also this means the players must be more tactical and use lessy flashy and obvious magic within the city. Also, divine spell casters must register with a church of their faith, or nearest to it. it's not a very popular law and it's not very well enforced, but the public believe what they are told about magic being dangerous. Also the duke is a little bit paranoid because last time the guild got too much power it killed the reigning duke, raised an undead army, and turned the duchy into a military controlled state, which was only destroyed when all neighbouring nations allied against them, which is why the duke wants to keep them on a tight leash.
stabs 03-27-06, 10:21 AM	I think it would depend on if the government in your city is evil or not. For example, in my campaign, the emperor has banned magick, and there's no fines or anything, you just get executed (or if it's minor like a cantrip, you lose your fingers). Another possible fine that could be more useful to a city run by Mages is rather than a monetary penalty, you have to donate your energies to a "spell pool." For example, someone is caught casting Magick Missile, they have to expend all their first level slots for that day into this Spell Pool. That could power any number of nefarious of benevolent means.
OravennasBrother 03-27-06, 10:35 AM	THe Crime described is very similar to the RL medieval civil crime "BReach of Guild Priviledge" Such a crime involed a fine based on the prestige and wealth of the guild and the percieved sligh as well as who was judging the issue. Thus a handmill vilation of the millers guild monopoly on milling might bring a modest fine (if any) out in the countryside where the lord of themanor would have a deal of sympathy for his poorer holders, but in the city, where the guilds often appointed justices the fine might be enough to impoverish a family and force some of them into slavery/indentured servitude (depending on hte time frame slavery was legal in much of Europe). Given the power of Magic, a wizards guild will likely have enormous power within their city and the fines could easily be crippling to a low level spellcaster. GIven D&D economics 500 GP per violation might be appropriate.