Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vrykolas2k 06-27-05, 05:30 PM	I was wondering if races have to take racial feats and hit dice. For instance, I have a player decide to play a minotaur raised by human nobles. Instead of taking the hit dice, skills and the feats, he instead takes a level in fighter and then applies the +2 level adjustment, making a beginning character 3rd level instead of 8th. Like how a drow would be created, only of course with different abilities. Would this be considered legal, or am I creating a precedent here by allowing such a thing? It really doesn't seem unbalancing to me.
MoogleEmpMog 06-27-05, 05:35 PM	By the rules as written, you cannot do this. In a great many cases, this would (or at least could) be unbalancing, because class hit dice are generally MUCH better than racial hit dice. This is especially true of creatures with unappealing types, like giant. Outsiders, dragons, monstrous humanoids and magical beasts get at least decent packages from their racial hit dice.
LCD2YOU 06-27-05, 05:40 PM	The additional "levels" for monsterous characters is not due to the upbringing the PC had, only it's natural abilities. Unless you are going to make the PC Minotuar be as strong as humans, no special attacks, 1 hit die starting out, essentially a human wearing a minotuar suit, then for game balance you'll need to the Minotuars challenge rating. Like I said, this is not about upbringing. It's about starting abilities. One thing though, if your player says, "Ok, what about a really young minotuar, they don't start out with anything special", is fine. It is just when the Minotuar PC starts getting their bonuses in Strength, their natural abilities, etc., the CR of the PC is still raised up by +7, I think that's it, or whatever it says it is. So, let's say he/she is all grown up by 6th level as a fighter, they are still considered 13th level character.
Vrykolas2k 06-27-05, 05:50 PM	Then why are things like drow {which have better abilities, in some areas} not restricted thusly? Or half-dragons? They are much more powerful in many respects, get a +3 level adjustment, none of the HD crap {which I always thought had more to do with upbringing in a primitive condition}, and a starting character is 4th level if he takes a level as fighter?
Rez 06-27-05, 06:31 PM	To make it fair, go out and buy Savage Species. It has all the updated rules for using monstrous creatures as player characters. Drow seems balanced to me, actually. I count it as 3 lvl adjustment. Half-Dragon seems balanced to me as well with the lvl adjustment though I would allow hit die for it as it is a tougher 'background' so to speak.
Vrykolas2k 06-27-05, 09:05 PM	To make it fair, go out and buy Savage Species. It has all the updated rules for using monstrous creatures as player characters. Drow seems balanced to me, actually. I count it as 3 lvl adjustment. Half-Dragon seems balanced to me as well with the lvl adjustment though I would allow hit die for it as it is a tougher 'background' so to speak. But a drow 1st level "class" is just a 3rd level character, as a starting character due to the +2 level adjustment. A beginning half-dragon is a 4th level character. Both have some fairly powerful abilities. As do the fey'ri, who also start at 4th level. So my point is, if they have such low ECLs to begin with, why would a minotaur HAVE to take the hit dice, skills and feats rather than simply "trading in" all of that, keeping his abilities {including plusses to some things, negatives to others, et cetera} and take the +2 level adjustment; thus in effect becoming a 3rd level character, rather than some hideously unorganized thing that none of my players would want to play. Or perhaps that's the point of how they're designed? Although that would seem unfair.
Rez 06-27-05, 09:09 PM	In the beginning, the Drow is more powerful. Later in levels, it usually isn't though depends on gear, what sort of background the game is, ect. As for Savage Species, it breaks down quite a few monsters into monster 'levels' and makes the char customizable (and gives some bonus feats, other abilities, hit dice and skills) and when the species is finished, one can take levels in what they want and even if they took levels in a species, they are still equal to the rest of the group but a 'Young Version'. It all equals out. I don't see how the Drows abilities are very powerful. Could be in some situations but take into account most wouldn't trust a drow and most are inherrently 'evil' as well as minotaurs though this could add to a lot of rp. Good luck~!
ChimericalWolf 06-27-05, 10:01 PM	My advice, as a fairly experianced DM and Player, is to NEVER EVER DO THIS. We tried it, and we drove someone from D&D in the process. If someone wants to play a minotaur, than the play a minotaur with full Racial HD, otherwise it's nuts unbalanced. Woog, it was horrible.
Vrykolas2k 06-27-05, 10:13 PM	So, the poor fellow has to play something he doesn't want for a few months. Got it. 2nd edition spoiled him, I suppose. Then again, my fave race used to be the ogre mage... double XP per level, but neat.
Rez 06-27-05, 10:51 PM	Well there is a lot of options on what he could play. One being, what about a half-ogre? +1 level adjustment, like +6 strength, a good con bump,a negative to int and cha I believe, reach, large size.....
celtredleg 06-27-05, 10:54 PM	Its a matter of paying the price. If he doesnt want to play a minotaur, then dont. If he does, then you get the whole package. I tried what you are suggesting. Major error. Very overpowered minotaur in a very few levels. Its not the DM that is getting messed over, it is the other players who are behind the power curve.
Maerdash 06-27-05, 11:13 PM	OK the minotaur gets +5 nat armor, +8 str, +4con, -4int, -2cha, large size, natural cunning, scent, and gore as a special attack. How is this a huge unbalancing factor? I'd have to say a 8th level human fighter could take the 6th level barbarian fighter, at least it looks that way to me. I really am curious as to how that's unbalancing, my players always try to keep their characters fairly reasonable in power so maybe my experiences are skewed. Edit: I've allowed my players to turn in their racial hd for class levels and its never come back to haunt me.
WCH 06-28-05, 12:19 AM	If you allow the substitution, the effect is that exotic races become easy to take. Do you want Mind Flayer or Ogre Mage PCs?
Maerdash 06-28-05, 12:41 AM	If you allow the substitution, the effect is that exotic races become easy to take. Do you want Mind Flayer or Ogre Mage PCs? Sure as long as the other players are fine with it, it isn't stronger than the other characters, and the player of the mindflayer realizes that some things, like towns will be harder for him to safely access. Edit: Oh and I have had a mindflayer pc before, as well as a troll and many other odd races.
PlutoniumKnight 06-28-05, 03:05 AM	You have to take the racial hit dice, it's part of the balance, do you let people play giants with only 4-6 LA and without the 14-20 racial hit dice, no you don't. You need to take the hit dice, you get feats and ability adjustments based on them.
Vrykolas2k 06-30-05, 02:12 PM	Sure as long as the other players are fine with it, it isn't stronger than the other characters, and the player of the mindflayer realizes that some things, like towns will be harder for him to safely access. Edit: Oh and I have had a mindflayer pc before, as well as a troll and many other odd races. Exactly. The fellow wants to play a minotaur, it's his fave race. He is aware of the fact that he will be looked at with distrust and a certain amount of hostility, and he wants to role-play such things. I have no problem with exotic races, so long as the player realizes there will be some problems to go along with the benefits. Savage Species came out before 3.5, so it's hardly up-to-date... some things have changed. I don't view the minotaur's abilities to be any more un-balancing than those of any other "non-standard" race; certainly, the abilities aren't much more powerful than those of a tiefling, for instance.
Rez 06-30-05, 03:06 PM	Personally I view savage species as well balanced. Yet with a minotaur, it would be quite a bit more powerful then any other party member right now probably, have more HD, better attack, ect. Probably highest AC..a big lumbering tank that's like much more powerful. Doesn't seem fair to the other players. One idea is lessen the abilities the minotaur has or remove some. He wouldn't be a normal minotaur as he was 'raised by nobles'.
Vrykolas2k 06-30-05, 11:36 PM	Personally I view savage species as well balanced. Yet with a minotaur, it would be quite a bit more powerful then any other party member right now probably, have more HD, better attack, ect. Probably highest AC..a big lumbering tank that's like much more powerful. Doesn't seem fair to the other players. One idea is lessen the abilities the minotaur has or remove some. He wouldn't be a normal minotaur as he was 'raised by nobles'. Exactly my point. He wasn't raised in the wilds like most were, so he'd have no reason to have the HD, Feats, or minotaur Skills. I think most people are looking at the stats for an adult minotaur who has, after years of doing what uncivilized minotaurs do, decided to advance in a class. The +2 level adjustment seems very fair to me for the size {pros and cons}, abilities like natural armour, horns, and scent. The stat boosts and negatives are also balanced. Basically, my player wants his minotaur to be a paladin who refuses to wear armour {thinking that doing so would be dis-honourable}. Looking at other race abilities which have adjustments, it just seems as balanced to me. But, I wanted other GM input as well...
Moonflyer 06-30-05, 11:51 PM	Savage Species is 3.5 compliant... link below I think might help you: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030321x
Rez 07-01-05, 08:32 AM	What abilities does the player have for a +2 level adjustment? I know a regular minotor has about 10 levels (Savage species)..... Just stating a opinion.....And I am a DM (relatively new but trying.)
Vrykolas2k 07-01-05, 11:14 AM	What abilities does the player have for a +2 level adjustment? I know a regular minotor has about 10 levels (Savage species)..... Just stating a opinion.....And I am a DM (relatively new but trying.) Read my above post. I think the only reason the beginning minotaur is usually eighth level is due to all of the arbitrarily assigned HD, Feats, and Skills. Take that out, and you just have the +2 adjustment for horns, scent, and size.
Rez 07-01-05, 11:26 AM	Ahh...err..ok......
Lord Schpungus 07-01-05, 12:16 PM	If you want a minotaur without the racial hit dice, use the dragonlance minotaurs. Otherwise, racial hit dice are not an option. You always have to take them because they are taken into account when determining level adjustment.
Vrykolas2k 07-01-05, 03:35 PM	If you want a minotaur without the racial hit dice, use the dragonlance minotaurs. Otherwise, racial hit dice are not an option. You always have to take them because they are taken into account when determining level adjustment. Which goes back to the original question: why are they always assigned? Should there not be an option?
Lord Schpungus 07-01-05, 04:03 PM	No. Racial Hit Dice are not levels gained in 'UnCivilized Monster', they are the monster's natural toughness. The minotaur has 6 racial hit dice because it's a challenge to kill. They are inherent in Minotaurness, just as much as the strength bonus, the mental penalties, and the Scent. If your player wants a civilized minotaur, have him put ranks in cross-class skills such as Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Knowledges, etc, and put high scores in mental abilities. It is not fair, not right, and not legal to cut racial hit dice because some cheater wants to have his cake and eat it too.
Vrykolas2k 07-01-05, 04:05 PM	No. Racial Hit Dice are not levels gained in 'UnCivilized Monster', they are the monster's natural toughness. The minotaur has 6 racial hit dice because it's a challenge to kill. They are inherent in Minotaurness, just as much as the strength bonus, the mental penalties, and the Scent. If your player wants a civilized minotaur, have him put ranks in cross-class skills such as Diplomacy, Gather Information, Bluff, Knowledges, etc, and put high scores in mental abilities. It is not fair, not right, and not legal to cut racial hit dice because some cheater wants to have his cake and eat it too. I'll just let him make his second favoured race then. A fey'ri. Although it's actually far more powerful. Thanx for the input.
Rez 07-01-05, 04:08 PM	Well said, Lord.
Vrykolas2k 07-01-05, 04:08 PM	If you want a minotaur without the racial hit dice, use the dragonlance minotaurs. Otherwise, racial hit dice are not an option. You always have to take them because they are taken into account when determining level adjustment. What's the difference between the two?
Metal Head Bard 07-01-05, 04:31 PM	I just use the Minotaur from the Dragonlance Campaign setting. No HD or ECL.
Vrykolas2k 07-01-05, 06:48 PM	I just use the Minotaur from the Dragonlance Campaign setting. No HD or ECL. Again... other than lacking HD, is there a difference between the two? A minotaur is more than cosmetic... do they still use their horns? Are they still large? Do they still have the scent ability?
ChimericalWolf 07-03-05, 08:35 AM	Essentially what you're looking at is cutting class levels. The minotaur racial class is a class just like any other, and you cannot cut levels of minotaur out any more than you can "just get rid of" levels of fighter that have no bonus feats.
Siduakal 07-03-05, 10:28 AM	I have your solution my friend! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030202 =) Excerpt from the Savage Species book.. it's a minotaur.
Vrykolas2k 07-05-05, 01:14 PM	I have your solution my friend! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030202 =) Excerpt from the Savage Species book.. it's a minotaur. I... have the book. He didn't want to play a child. None of us have Dragonlance, which is why I kept asking if there was any real difference. He's playing a fey'ri, though... alot more powerful than the minotaur would have been, in most ways.
spamfiltre 07-05-05, 01:56 PM	I... have the book. He didn't want to play a child. None of us have Dragonlance, which is why I kept asking if there was any real difference. He's playing a fey'ri, though... alot more powerful than the minotaur would have been, in most ways. Vrykolas2k, You asked a question about changing the RAW, and got a response from a lot of people who believe that RAW (from Savage Species) is correct. If you don't want to agree with the people posting here, then don't. It's your game. If you want to let one of your players take the level adjustment without the racial hit dice, then do it. The real issue is this: A Minotuar with one level of Fighter is much more powerful than a 3rd level Fighter. +6 STR, +4 CON, Large Size,+5 natural armor, and 4D6 charge damage are worth more than a +2 level adjustment when applied to a character without racial hit dice. Racial hit dice are weaker than character levels. That's the balancing factor. If you take this player's Minotaur Paladin at 10 ECL (Pal 8, +2 LA), and put him up against a base Minotaur, the base minotaur will lose every time. Role-playing adjustments like not wearing armor for philosophical reasons don't count in the balance equation. That said, do it in your game if you feel it's appropriate. No one here will stop you.
Maerdash 07-05-05, 02:13 PM	If you want a minotaur without the racial hit dice, use the dragonlance minotaurs. Otherwise, racial hit dice are not an option. You always have to take them because they are taken into account when determining level adjustment. The guy is the Dm I think that gives him the option to change anything he wants.
Maerdash 07-05-05, 02:18 PM	Take savage species and "create" your own race, give them all the stuff minotaur get , figure out the level adjustment using the rules in the front of the book, name the race minotaur and your set. :D I mean seriously, the rules already exsist for dropping racial HD just be inventive its your game after all.
wonlee76 07-05-05, 03:46 PM	To put things simply about monstrous races from the MM, the LA that is given for the race (a pretty arbitrary number to begin with) is calculated with the monstrous HD as part of the equation. The more monstrous HD that the monster has, the smaller the LA for the creature. When you take out the monstrous HD (In this case, the 6 "Giant" HD for minotaurs), the LA is not a fair number for the abilities the minotaur gets. Compare the Minotaur abiltiies minus the monstrous HD vs. a Drow. Both are +2 LA. I don't think they are close to being equal to each other. Minotaurs get +5 nat armor, +8 str, +4con, -4int, -2cha, large size, natural cunning, scent, and gore as a special attack. So a net stat gain of +6, a decent AC bonus that stacks with regular armor, large size giving nice reach ability, ability to wield large sized weapons increasing damage output with any weapon, a natural attack that can be used as a secondary attack on top of a melee weapon and partial uncanny dodge type ability and the scent ability. Drow gets +2 Dex and Cha and a -2 to Con (I think, I don't recall exactly), Spell Resistance, some racial weapon proficiencies, light weakness, and I think some skill bonuses. Putting a minotaur with no racial HD against a drow with the same LA is clearly not even. As for the dragonlance minotaurs, without breaking any copyright rules, basically they are medium sized with I think even stat bonuses and penalties, a small natural armor bonus and the horns (they may also have the scent ability too but I'm not certain about that). No large size, definitely no +5 natural armor. Stat bonuses are greatly diminished compared to the MM minotaur.
Vrykolas2k 07-05-05, 03:54 PM	Vrykolas2k, You asked a question about changing the RAW, and got a response from a lot of people who believe that RAW (from Savage Species) is correct. If you don't want to agree with the people posting here, then don't. It's your game. If you want to let one of your players take the level adjustment without the racial hit dice, then do it. The real issue is this: A Minotuar with one level of Fighter is much more powerful than a 3rd level Fighter. +6 STR, +4 CON, Large Size,+5 natural armor, and 4D6 charge damage are worth more than a +2 level adjustment when applied to a character without racial hit dice. Racial hit dice are weaker than character levels. That's the balancing factor. If you take this player's Minotaur Paladin at 10 ECL (Pal 8, +2 LA), and put him up against a base Minotaur, the base minotaur will lose every time. Role-playing adjustments like not wearing armor for philosophical reasons don't count in the balance equation. That said, do it in your game if you feel it's appropriate. No one here will stop you. I'm asking questions, nae actually disagreeing. It would actually be a PAL 6 {here, I disagree} but 8th level due to +2 LA. Kind of like the Fey'ri fighter is a 1st level fighter, but 4th level total due to the +3 LA. His powers are "less equal" shall we say, due to the fact that a minotaur takes negatives to some stats to "egual" gains in others... as well as AC and attack bonuses. See? I was asking if it's rules-legal in 3.5. Then, I asked what the difference between the Krynn minotaurs and the "basic" minotaurs might be. Size? Lack of horns? Et cetera. I try to do things book-legal, but at the same time work around what my players want to play.
snowlynx 07-05-05, 03:58 PM	It's okay if you want to take away the racial hit die, but as wonlee76 said, the level adjustment is lowered because the critter has hit dice. You're going to have to go in and recalculate the level adjustment manually, using the savage species book as a guideline. I would say, for example, that the stat bonuses are clearly worth at least a +1 lvl adjustment, scent is easily worth a level adjustment, and the large size is clearly worth a level adjustment, for start. The minotaur has some other important factors to consider too; I would look at the half-dragon (+3) as a good comparison for some of the bonuses and see if it gets more or less advantages. My guess is, presuming the half-dragon base creature is not large (since this would provoke another level adjustment) the minotaur still comes out on top, so the level adjustment might be +4. This would have to be tested though; it might be +3.
Vrykolas2k 07-05-05, 04:09 PM	It's okay if you want to take away the racial hit die, but as wonlee76 said, the level adjustment is lowered because the critter has hit dice. You're going to have to go in and recalculate the level adjustment manually, using the savage species book as a guideline. I would say, for example, that the stat bonuses are clearly worth at least a +1 lvl adjustment, scent is easily worth a level adjustment, and the large size is clearly worth a level adjustment, for start. The minotaur has some other important factors to consider too; I would look at the half-dragon (+3) as a good comparison for some of the bonuses and see if it gets more or less advantages. My guess is, presuming the half-dragon base creature is not large (since this would provoke another level adjustment) the minotaur still comes out on top, so the level adjustment might be +4. This would have to be tested though; it might be +3. You see, I might go with a +3. Except for the fact that the negatives to some stats pretty much equal the bonuses of others. I don't consider Scent to be any more powerful than Darkvision, though certainly Scent plus Natural Cunning should definately be a level adjustment, as should size and natural weaponry. The half-dragon needs another level adjustment or two, I think; breath weapon, natural armour, low-light and darkvision, natural weaponry, and immunities to an energy form plus other things... I really think that the half-dragon with only the HD provided by level adjustment is a more powerful race than a minotaur with only the HD from level adjustment. But, maybe I'm some-how missing something...
snowlynx 07-05-05, 04:18 PM	You're going to have to test this stuff out to know for sure...hrm, try creating a 12th level human fighter, a 9th level half-dragon fighter, and a 9th level Minotaur fighter. I think the reason why the minotaur will come out on top of the half-dragon is, quite honestly, because the size increase is much better then something like a breath weapon. (For kicks, give them each a spiked chain if you want my point proven.) If the minotaur were medium sized, it would be a lot easier to just give it a +3 adjustment and be done with it.
Vrykolas2k 07-05-05, 04:30 PM	You're going to have to test this stuff out to know for sure...hrm, try creating a 12th level human fighter, a 9th level half-dragon fighter, and a 9th level Minotaur fighter. I think the reason why the minotaur will come out on top of the half-dragon is, quite honestly, because the size increase is much better then something like a breath weapon. (For kicks, give them each a spiked chain if you want my point proven.) If the minotaur were medium sized, it would be a lot easier to just give it a +3 adjustment and be done with it. See, that's the problem. I've looked over the stat increases of both the minotaur and the half-dragon as well. The minotaur will average a little stronger, but the half-dragon also doesn't take as drastic penalties to stats that the minotaur does. The size can work against the minotaur as much as for it, as well. Their natural armours are comperable, and the natural weapons are also within the same ball-park {medium half-dragon to large minotaur}... not including the breath weopon. Give the half-dragon multi-attack and clinging breath {as the player who has one has done}, and it definately out-shines the minotaur. It certainly would at 12th level, due to the fact that the minotaur will have four class levels against the half-dragon's nine. That's alot of why the LAs leave me scratching my head sometimes. Which led me to asking for advice. Like I said, maybe I've just missed something some-how. At any rate, I'm not an ingrate and I do appreciate all of the advice...
snowlynx 07-05-05, 04:38 PM	four class levels against the half-dragon's nine I'm talking about if you remove the hit dice, mind. You should figure out if the a 8th or 9th level minotaur character with no racial hit dice outshines the 9th level half-dragon fighter and the 9th level human fighter. Once you have found the proper level adjustment, you can scribble it down in your notes and use it for all future minotaur characters, if you like.
Vrykolas2k 07-05-05, 04:56 PM	four class levels against the half-dragon's nine I'm talking about if you remove the hit dice, mind. You should figure out if the a 8th or 9th level minotaur character with no racial hit dice outshines the 9th level half-dragon fighter and the 9th level human fighter. Once you have found the proper level adjustment, you can scribble it down in your notes and use it for all future minotaur characters, if you like. OH! No, I tried that too. I applied 3 racial HD to the half-dragon, two to the minotaur, and then took a dwarf fighter and looked at them on paper, tried a few rolls for strikes. The half-dragon would come in first, the dwarf second. That's using a dwarf with a dwarven war-axe +3, a half-dragon with a greatsword +2, and a minotaur with a greataxe +2. The dwarf had a chain shirt +2. All had weopon focus, specialization, power attack, and some feats for flavour {including "racial"}.
Siduakal 07-05-05, 05:16 PM	Yea, just imagine this.. Large Creature Monkey Grip .. Huge Greatsword. I'm not sure WHAT the 3d6 large greatsword goes to if it's huge.. but I'm sure it's nasty.
LadyCreator 07-05-05, 06:41 PM	We just recently did this with a Faerie Dragon. She's going to be a cleric, so we switched out all the dragon hit dice for cleric hit dice (resulting in a lower BAB, far fewer skill points and class skills, bad REF as opposed to all good saves - this won't be the case for most creature types, but for dragon it's definitely a downgrade). We reassigned her feats and ability increases (she had 8 racial hit dice and we were starting her as a 15th level character). Her LA is only +2 by the book, so we re-calculated it, taking into account all the ability score bonuses (no penalties), the minor breath weapon (dazes opponents), the ability to fly (and water breathing, although that's irrelevant in this campaign). The small size (according to Savage Species) is worth a -1LA. We came up with a +4 LA and she had 11 levels in cleric. The character is for me to play, though I usually DM, and the girl (player of mine) who's DMing this one-shot insisted that I keep the spell-like abilities of the critter, although I would have either done away with them (viewing them as based on the hit dice, since they were higher than 0 level spells) or increased the LA. Her rationale was based on the particular campaign environment (my character is a sort of ambassador from the faerie demiplane to the court of good dragons where the one-shot will take place), which is non-standard (all the NPCs are dragons) and high-powered. NB: This character was very concept-based and our group has a good level of trust regarding the power level of characters and intent of the players. That is, we know that any non-standard character stuff is *not* based on any kind of a power grab. If you can't trust your group like that, NEVER deviate from the RAW. Essentially, what we did was create a 0HD version of the Faerie Dragon and add class levels to it. We drew extensively on Savage Species and Expeditious Retreat's Beast Builder (their stuff is so great) in order to make the creature balanced. It was similar to reverse-engineering a monster to make a weaker version. There are lots of variables to consider and it will almost always involve increasing the LA on the base creature. Also note that this example doesn't involve the problems that come with Large creatures and reach. By the way, the most relevant chapter from Beast Builder (the one on monster statistics) is available free from RPGnow: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4325&
snowlynx 07-05-05, 07:20 PM	OH! No, I tried that too. I applied 3 racial HD to the half-dragon, two to the minotaur, and then took a dwarf fighter and looked at them on paper, tried a few rolls for strikes. The half-dragon would come in first, the dwarf second. That's using a dwarf with a dwarven war-axe +3, a half-dragon with a greatsword +2, and a minotaur with a greataxe +2. The dwarf had a chain shirt +2. All had weopon focus, specialization, power attack, and some feats for flavour {including "racial"}. I'm confused, though: why did you give the half-dragon racial hit dice? And why does the dwarf have better equipment (since if the are all the same ECL, they should all have the same total level, which is what you use for EQ)? Did you take into account threatened areas and things other then just attack rolls and damage (believe it or not, most fighters in groups I see use 'trip' and 'grapple'.)
WCH 07-05-05, 07:32 PM	Greatsword damage by size: Tiny: 1d8 Small: 1d10 Medium: 2d6 Large: 3d6 Huge: 2d10 Gargantuan: 4d8 Dunno after that. Figured those out using the table in PHB, page 114.
Vrykolas2k 07-05-05, 09:42 PM	I'm confused, though: why did you give the half-dragon racial hit dice? And why does the dwarf have better equipment (since if the are all the same ECL, they should all have the same total level, which is what you use for EQ)? Did you take into account threatened areas and things other then just attack rolls and damage (believe it or not, most fighters in groups I see use 'trip' and 'grapple'.) +3 LA, 3 HD. +2 LA, 2 HD. That's what I used. As for the rest, I was rolling for straight-up fights with the weapons in question. As for rolling stats, I used the usual 4d6, take away the low one. I always roll an 11 or better for some reason, whether anyone is watching or not. I assigned the scores where I wanted them {the dwarf started off with a 17 STR, which was raised according to level}. The half-dragon started off with 20 before level adjustments, the minotaur with 21 before level adjustments. The dwarf was a little behind for that, but since the minotaur is Large that evened out. Since the "encounter" took place in the "typical dungeon passage", the minotaur couldn't even effectively use his axe... he and it were just too big. The half-dragon was also slightly hampered by this, due to his use of a great-sword. I gave the dwarf the armour since it equaled out the others' natural armour. I didn't take any other equipment into account, just size, ability, weapons, and protection. Then I decided to use reaction adjustments with NPCs. Here again, the half-dragon's CHA bonus was a large advantage. The minotaur was, of course, at a disadvantage, the dwarf was indifferent. I have done a few other tests, using my wife as a "player" or "GM" for some of them. In my humble opinion, the minotaur isn't over-balanced in most situations if you just apply the +2 LA, and leave off the 6 HD, Skills, and Feats. There are some instances where, of course, the minotaur shines... but the half-dragon, at only an extra +1 LA, outshines the minotaur across the board. I won't even get into the fey'ri, with its 10/ +1 damage reduction and other abilities for a +3 LA...
snowlynx 07-05-05, 11:59 PM	Ah...the reason why I picked such high levels (12th and 9th level) was because many abilities fade in use by these levels; damage reduction doesn't, natural armor and stat bonuses don't, immunities don't, and size doesn't. The half-dragon was also slightly hampered by this, due to his use of a great-sword. It sounds like you're using non-standard rules here....so I really can't judge. In general, I consider the large size to be a particularily potent advantage merely because of threat range on weapons. I'm not too familiar with forgotten realms, but I thought fey'ri paid for more or less of a level adjustment based on which abilities they picked. +3 LA, 3 HD. +2 LA, 2 HD. I still find this confusing. The hit dice are fighter levels, correct? (Usually, half dragons have no hit dice.)
wonlee76 07-06-05, 12:34 AM	Well, you have three options if you want a mino without the racial HD. #1: Weaken the bonuses that a minotaur gets so that the +2 LA listed in the MM is appropriate. You could lessen the strength bonus, con bonus, natural armor, etc. or remove some abilities until it ends up being a +2 LA. #2: Acid test it against other monsters with slightly higher LA such as the half-dragon example or whatever and adjust the level adjustment for the minotaur accordingly. (Just eyeballing it, I would mark the minotaur without racial HD at around +4 depending on your view on the penalties to the mental stat which I don't think is that big of a deal since the mino is intended to be a beefy fighter type). If a minotaur with 5 levels of barbarian can easily beat a half-dragon with 5 levels of barbarian (ECL 8), then the minotaur's LA is at least a +3. If the same level 5 barbarian minotaur has a fair shot at beating a level 6 half-dragon barbarian (ECL 9). Then the LA for the minotaur should be +4. Run the fight under different situations to get a better idea how they compare. #3: Use a combination of both #1 and #2 if you're unhappy with the LA result from #2. Reduce only some of the benefits for a more appealing LA.
Vrykolas2k 07-06-05, 08:02 PM	Ah...the reason why I picked such high levels (12th and 9th level) was because many abilities fade in use by these levels; damage reduction doesn't, natural armor and stat bonuses don't, immunities don't, and size doesn't. The half-dragon was also slightly hampered by this, due to his use of a great-sword. It sounds like you're using non-standard rules here....so I really can't judge. In general, I consider the large size to be a particularily potent advantage merely because of threat range on weapons. I'm not too familiar with forgotten realms, but I thought fey'ri paid for more or less of a level adjustment based on which abilities they picked. +3 LA, 3 HD. +2 LA, 2 HD. I still find this confusing. The hit dice are fighter levels, correct? (Usually, half dragons have no hit dice.) The typical dungeon passage is about five feet across and ten high, right? Ever try using a four-foot sword in close confines? I wouldn't even want to in a ten-foot wide place under most circumstances. Now picture the minotaur, a large creature with a big axe. He'd just be able to use his horns, for the most part {though the axe could parry}. The hit dice were 3d8 and 2d8, respectively. Fighter dice came after level adjustment dice. Yeah, threat range is great... outside or in open places. Other-wise, it's as much a hindrance as it normally is a boon.
Vrykolas2k 07-06-05, 08:10 PM	Well, you have three options if you want a mino without the racial HD. #1: Weaken the bonuses that a minotaur gets so that the +2 LA listed in the MM is appropriate. You could lessen the strength bonus, con bonus, natural armor, etc. or remove some abilities until it ends up being a +2 LA. #2: Acid test it against other monsters with slightly higher LA such as the half-dragon example or whatever and adjust the level adjustment for the minotaur accordingly. (Just eyeballing it, I would mark the minotaur without racial HD at around +4 depending on your view on the penalties to the mental stat which I don't think is that big of a deal since the mino is intended to be a beefy fighter type). If a minotaur with 5 levels of barbarian can easily beat a half-dragon with 5 levels of barbarian (ECL 8), then the minotaur's LA is at least a +3. If the same level 5 barbarian minotaur has a fair shot at beating a level 6 half-dragon barbarian (ECL 9). Then the LA for the minotaur should be +4. Run the fight under different situations to get a better idea how they compare. #3: Use a combination of both #1 and #2 if you're unhappy with the LA result from #2. Reduce only some of the benefits for a more appealing LA. Great advice. So, if I'm going to lower the strength and constitution bonuses, does that mean I lower the negatives to intelligence and charisma? Under the experiments I've already done, the half-dragon wins at a +3 level adjustment against the +2 level adjustment for the minotaur. Especially when both only use natural weapons {bite and claws and breath weapon vs. horns}, with the feats multi-attack and clinging breath for the half-dragon and power attack and improved bull rush for the minotaur {of course, they both had others, but those were the two my wife and I sed the most}. And the dwarf I rolled up beat the minotaur hands-down 2 for 3 {the last was because I olled two natural twenties in a row on the dwarf}.
Vrykolas2k 07-06-05, 08:22 PM	Yea, just imagine this.. Large Creature Monkey Grip .. Huge Greatsword. I'm not sure WHAT the 3d6 large greatsword goes to if it's huge.. but I'm sure it's nasty. What is Monkey Grip...?
snowlynx 07-06-05, 10:26 PM	...? Um, level adjustments don't have hit dice. No wonder the half dragon won hands down. Monkey grip is a feat in the complete warrior that makes it possible to hold bigger weapons. The weapon rules you're using for confined quarters are house rules, by the way. The minotaur would be 'squeezing' in such a narrow confine; the half-dragon and dwarf wouldn't have penalties. Most of the corridors in 'dungeon' crawls I've been through have been much larger then what you mention, though as the DM, you're more likely them me to know what the characters are going to be traveling through. As a DM, were I making a minotaur just a level adjustment with no racial hit dice, I would probably go with #1 and simply lower the size. Characters with extra reach get very, very powerful very easily, and the large size will make it harder for you to integrate the character in the game. I'm not sure if the minotaur would them be balanced at +2 la, but it would be much closer.
Vrykolas2k 07-07-05, 05:03 PM	...? Um, level adjustments don't have hit dice. No wonder the half dragon won hands down. Monkey grip is a feat in the complete warrior that makes it possible to hold bigger weapons. The weapon rules you're using for confined quarters are house rules, by the way. The minotaur would be 'squeezing' in such a narrow confine; the half-dragon and dwarf wouldn't have penalties. Most of the corridors in 'dungeon' crawls I've been through have been much larger then what you mention, though as the DM, you're more likely them me to know what the characters are going to be traveling through. As a DM, were I making a minotaur just a level adjustment with no racial hit dice, I would probably go with #1 and simply lower the size. Characters with extra reach get very, very powerful very easily, and the large size will make it harder for you to integrate the character in the game. I'm not sure if the minotaur would them be balanced at +2 la, but it would be much closer. It's about the only house-rule I use. Then again, I actually own and know how to use weapons. So I make rules on how certain weapons perform in certain situations. And for creature sizes. So anyway I disregarded Races of Faerun and took away the HD for level adjustments, and the minotaur still doesn't have a great advantage in MOST situations. The half-dragon still whomps him, and he's still disadvantaged by a dwarf. I think a +2 LA is still balanced enough without having to take 8 HD and feats and skills. Anyway, thanx everyone for your input.