About the Philosopher's Stone [Archive] - Wizards Community

About the Philosopher's Stone [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Caractacus
10-29-07, 05:45 PM Right then, first time poster here, hope I got things right. And no, this is not about Harry Potter...

First of all, let me point out that I am completely new to D&D 3.5; the last time I played and DM:d D&D, Armour Class -5 was a good thing, there were proficiencies rather than skills, and if you wanted to play a paladin you had to have a Charisma score of 17 and a Wisdom of 13 to be allowed to even look at the class description. So you can understand that I felt a bit, well, out of my depth when I finally decided to pick up the game again, but I am trying to get the hang of all the newfangled stuff and am preparing a campaign. Which brings me to the subject of this post.

When finding that the Philosopher's Stone was no longer among "Miscalleanous Magic" but had been upgraded to Artifact, an idea emerged about a long campaign to find it; after all, it is a very classic McGuffin and a promising plot device. However, after reading the description, I got a bit disappointed, because unless I've got something wrong, then what the thing really boils down to, in the eyes of the pragmatic player, is the equivalent of 50 000 gp OR a one-time True Resurrection. While it is a hefty reward, I felt it lacked a certain something in the department of Key To Eternal Life And Riches Beyond Comprehension And Great Mystical Object Of An Epic Quest. Still, I want to use it as the ultimate goal of a campaign. This means I have two ways to go:

First, I can upgrade the thing to be permanent and better; that is to say, it can be used for ever to make gold and life-prolonging potions (which is more in the spirit of the classical tales about it). In this case, the player's motivation will not be a trouble, but it will be a very unbalancing object once they get it, likely to wreak havoc with any subsequent campaigns.

The other way is to leave the Philosopher's Stone as it is, but make the campaign about finding out how to actually create one; this, I like much better, partly because it is very classical and the ultimate goal of an alchemist, and partly because it would be much easier to balance the thing by making the requirements for creating one difficult. But this means that I must come up with good ideas as to how one might go about to create this the pinnacle of the alchemist's art.

I am hoping to get some ideas from imaginative DM:s and also to hear about how others have treated this artifact.
Senevri
10-29-07, 06:28 PM I agree, the stone is underpowered for it's flavor...
Albeit, what it was supposed to do was to turn lead to gold, right?

Personally, I'd allow it to make a person un-aging (immortal), as that has no actual game mechanical benefits, in addition to the gold thing. Then again, I doubt gold is as rare in DnD as it's in real life. ( I think my personal mythos has certain creatures using it for food or fuel... )
DyloniusFunk
10-30-07, 03:55 AM You could go the Fullmetal Alchemist route and make the stone allow any alchemist/caster to bypass the laws of equivilant exchange, i e cast spells or make items without expending XP or without expanding spell slots. Maybe make it only useable a few times a day so it's not abused or maybe only let it be used to remopve XP cost.
Empirate
10-30-07, 09:36 AM Actually, the unlimited uses way isn't as unbalancing as you might think. Where does all the gold go? The party will be able to buy pretty much anything they want, for a while... but the gold stays in circulation. It gets used by the people that sold stuff to the PCs: they hand it over to other people to buy other stuff. So after a short while, your PCs will have broken the bank. Huge inflation will set in, with famine, war and general desperation on its heels. The PCs will be responsible for this. They must find a way to deal with the consequences... maybe a magical way can be found to change all that gold back into lead?

Also, where does all the lead come from? It must be bought somewhere. Over time, the prices of lead and gold would become near equivalent, at least in the vicinity of the PCs, those well-known ultimate alchemists.
lastknightleft
10-30-07, 09:43 AM you could also balance out the potion and lead to gold factors by giving them high craft alchemy DCs, say 40-50 range, that way, the players could possibly brew them at higher levels with the help of the stone. that way it keeps its balance.
Kaligrad
10-30-07, 10:37 AM In my signature there is a link to my alchemist class, whose final ability is to create a minor Philosopher's Stone. Once per week, it allows the alchemist to convert 1/10th of the lead or iron into gold or silver, or cast a regular ressurection without a spell component. I'd tell you to think about incorporating my class, but the altered Stone is probably what you're looking for.

Philosopher's Stone (Ex): An alchemist of 20th level has now gathered sufficient knowledge to make a minor, but reusable, philosopher's stone. It takes one month of uninterrupted time, but at the end, the alchemist will have a stone that acts as a smaller philosopher's stone. Once per week, the alchemist with this device can either cast resurrection, as per the spell, without material components; or he can transmute up to 100 pounds of iron into silver, or 10 pounds of lead into gold. This item cannot be used by anyone else than the alchemist who made it.
lastknightleft
10-30-07, 11:50 AM Hey I created an Alchemist class for the game I'm playing in now, we should compare:D
Prince_of_Parkness
10-30-07, 12:38 PM Actually, the unlimited uses way isn't as unbalancing as you might think. Where does all the gold go? The party will be able to buy pretty much anything they want, for a while... but the gold stays in circulation. It gets used by the people that sold stuff to the PCs: they hand it over to other people to buy other stuff. So after a short while, your PCs will have broken the bank. Huge inflation will set in, with famine, war and general desperation on its heels. The PCs will be responsible for this. They must find a way to deal with the consequences... maybe a magical way can be found to change all that gold back into lead?

Also, where does all the lead come from? It must be bought somewhere. Over time, the prices of lead and gold would become near equivalent, at least in the vicinity of the PCs, those well-known ultimate alchemists.

I cant make an educated arguemnt against that, but Id have a hard time believing that one adventuring party could do that to the whole ecominy. If loads of people used it then sure, but otherwise the inpact on the value of gold would neglegable

You point about obtaining the lead however is quite a good one
Bhaelfur
10-30-07, 12:42 PM Philosopher's stones are peoplllllllleee!

You could go that route, much like Full Metal Alchemist, where the requirement to make a philosopher's stone is a mass sacrifice.

Also, another route you could take, keep the philosopher's stone as is, but keep up the rumors and hype that it's the greatest treasure and can do all that stuff. Sure, it might be a let down in the end, but could work, I suppose...
Artector
10-30-07, 12:51 PM They could find the Artifact unbeefed. Then they have to figure out how to reproduce it. There's 2 games. Plus if you make resurrection magic harder to obtain and more costly the stone would seem much more valuble.
icuall
10-30-07, 01:34 PM I have not read the description of the artifact. However, if you are concerned about turning things into gold and the party getting too rich, and thus unbalancing the game. I would limit the amount of gold it can produce on either an weight amount per day, or an amount per week, etc.

Or it has another limitation that the object to be converted to gold has to be prepared in a special process that incurs expenses. Such as it has to be lead that is purified and seeded with gold. You determine the percentage required. The end result is that they Net the difference the Stone makes. For example the process requires a 35% gold mixed in with lead (and only lead or copper depending on the process you create). It is a one pound of lead. The gold that is seeded, 1/3 lb, converts with the lead to gold and you have only 1 lb of gold now after the special process is completed. They gain only 2/3 lbs of gold by SRD is 32 gold pieces (50 x 65%).

I think I would place both limitations to the process and then monitor their wealth it they using the Stone constantly to adjust the treasure they are receiving.
Saiyamantis
10-31-07, 01:37 AM How's this, Caractacus? I got bored earlier today and whipped up an improved philosopher's stone you might want to use.

MAGNUM OPUS
Price (Item Level): — (artifact)
Body Slot: —
Caster Level: 21st
Aura: overwhelming (DC 25); transmutation
Activation: see text
Weight: 3 lb.
The fist-sized crimson stone in your hands glitters from deep within. Gripping it sends a strange tingle throughout your body.
The magnum opus is typically found with 100 charges, but may be found with fewer. Any spell that identifies the stone also reveals the number of charges remaining. When the stone has no charges remaining, it crumbles to dust and is gone forever. The magnum opus's charges can be used in four ways: purifying materials, assisting item creation, enhancing transmutation, and brewing an elixir of life.

Purify Materials: When powedered and mixed with at least 1 pound of earth, stone or metal for an hour, the magnum opus transforms the substance into gold of equivalent weight. Each charge drained from the magnum opus can transform up to 5 pounds of material.

Assist Item Creation: If present during the creation of a magic item, the magnum opus matches the creator's input in both gold pieces and experience points, effectively doubling his progress for the day. Using the magnum opus to assist item creation drains 1 charge per 250 gold pieces worth of progress provided, rounded up.

Enhance Transmutation: By adding a portion of the magnum opus as an additional material component, a spellcaster can spontaneously apply any metamagic feat he knows to a transmutation spell without increasing the spell's level or casting time. Enhancing transmutation drains 2 charges, plus 2 additional charges for level increase of the metamagic feat. Multiple metamagic feats can be applied to a single spell in this fashion, but each feat applied counts as a separate use of this ability.

Elixir of Life: The magnum opus can be used to prepare an elixir that extends the user's current age category by one year. The elixir also delays all future age categories by one year, but has no effect on previous age categories. For example, a middle-aged human who consumed an elixir of life would become old at 54 years and venerable at 71 years, but could never become adult again using this ability. The effects of multiple elixirs stack. Preparing an elixir of life drains 20 charges.
If the magnum opus has 200 or more charges remaining, it can be made into a much more powerful elixir of life. When consumed, the elixir permanently halts the aging process and removes all penalties (but not bonuses) accrued from aging. Creating an enhanced elixir of life drains all charges from the magnum opus, destroying the stone.

In addition to the uses above, the magnum opus gradually decays on the Material Plane, losing 1 charge per week. No mortal magic, can prevent this decay, including time-altering magic such as temporal stasis. Moving the stone to an inner plane halves the rate of decay, while moving it to an outer plane halts the process until the stone leaves the plane.
As long as the magnum opus has at least 1 charge remaining, it can be regenerated by a character with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Regeneration requires 8 hours of work in an alchemist's lab and regeants costing 500 gp. An artificer may choose to spend 10 craft points to reduce either the time or cost by half. At the end of the procedure, the stone regains 2 charges.

LORE: A successful Knowledge (arcana) checks reveals the following information.
DC 15- You have heard of a legendary red stone called the magnum opus that can grant its owner great wealth.
DC 20- Sometimes called alkahest, carmot, or chrysopoeia, the magnum opus can perform miraculous acts of transmutation, including the creation of pure gold.
DC 25- The magnum opus can be used to ward off old age and death. An especially potent sample could could grant its bearer eternal youth.
DC 30- The purity of the magnum opus is degraded by mortal realms. Those skilled in magical craftsmanship can restore its purity with sufficient time and effort.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caractacus 10-29-07, 05:45 PM	Right then, first time poster here, hope I got things right. And no, this is not about Harry Potter... First of all, let me point out that I am completely new to D&D 3.5; the last time I played and DM:d D&D, Armour Class -5 was a good thing, there were proficiencies rather than skills, and if you wanted to play a paladin you had to have a Charisma score of 17 and a Wisdom of 13 to be allowed to even look at the class description. So you can understand that I felt a bit, well, out of my depth when I finally decided to pick up the game again, but I am trying to get the hang of all the newfangled stuff and am preparing a campaign. Which brings me to the subject of this post. When finding that the Philosopher's Stone was no longer among "Miscalleanous Magic" but had been upgraded to Artifact, an idea emerged about a long campaign to find it; after all, it is a very classic McGuffin and a promising plot device. However, after reading the description, I got a bit disappointed, because unless I've got something wrong, then what the thing really boils down to, in the eyes of the pragmatic player, is the equivalent of 50 000 gp OR a one-time True Resurrection. While it is a hefty reward, I felt it lacked a certain something in the department of Key To Eternal Life And Riches Beyond Comprehension And Great Mystical Object Of An Epic Quest. Still, I want to use it as the ultimate goal of a campaign. This means I have two ways to go: First, I can upgrade the thing to be permanent and better; that is to say, it can be used for ever to make gold and life-prolonging potions (which is more in the spirit of the classical tales about it). In this case, the player's motivation will not be a trouble, but it will be a very unbalancing object once they get it, likely to wreak havoc with any subsequent campaigns. The other way is to leave the Philosopher's Stone as it is, but make the campaign about finding out how to actually create one; this, I like much better, partly because it is very classical and the ultimate goal of an alchemist, and partly because it would be much easier to balance the thing by making the requirements for creating one difficult. But this means that I must come up with good ideas as to how one might go about to create this the pinnacle of the alchemist's art. I am hoping to get some ideas from imaginative DM:s and also to hear about how others have treated this artifact.
Senevri 10-29-07, 06:28 PM	I agree, the stone is underpowered for it's flavor... Albeit, what it was supposed to do was to turn lead to gold, right? Personally, I'd allow it to make a person un-aging (immortal), as that has no actual game mechanical benefits, in addition to the gold thing. Then again, I doubt gold is as rare in DnD as it's in real life. ( I think my personal mythos has certain creatures using it for food or fuel... )
DyloniusFunk 10-30-07, 03:55 AM	You could go the Fullmetal Alchemist route and make the stone allow any alchemist/caster to bypass the laws of equivilant exchange, i e cast spells or make items without expending XP or without expanding spell slots. Maybe make it only useable a few times a day so it's not abused or maybe only let it be used to remopve XP cost.
Empirate 10-30-07, 09:36 AM	Actually, the unlimited uses way isn't as unbalancing as you might think. Where does all the gold go? The party will be able to buy pretty much anything they want, for a while... but the gold stays in circulation. It gets used by the people that sold stuff to the PCs: they hand it over to other people to buy other stuff. So after a short while, your PCs will have broken the bank. Huge inflation will set in, with famine, war and general desperation on its heels. The PCs will be responsible for this. They must find a way to deal with the consequences... maybe a magical way can be found to change all that gold back into lead? Also, where does all the lead come from? It must be bought somewhere. Over time, the prices of lead and gold would become near equivalent, at least in the vicinity of the PCs, those well-known ultimate alchemists.
lastknightleft 10-30-07, 09:43 AM	you could also balance out the potion and lead to gold factors by giving them high craft alchemy DCs, say 40-50 range, that way, the players could possibly brew them at higher levels with the help of the stone. that way it keeps its balance.
Kaligrad 10-30-07, 10:37 AM	In my signature there is a link to my alchemist class, whose final ability is to create a minor Philosopher's Stone. Once per week, it allows the alchemist to convert 1/10th of the lead or iron into gold or silver, or cast a regular ressurection without a spell component. I'd tell you to think about incorporating my class, but the altered Stone is probably what you're looking for. Philosopher's Stone (Ex): An alchemist of 20th level has now gathered sufficient knowledge to make a minor, but reusable, philosopher's stone. It takes one month of uninterrupted time, but at the end, the alchemist will have a stone that acts as a smaller philosopher's stone. Once per week, the alchemist with this device can either cast resurrection, as per the spell, without material components; or he can transmute up to 100 pounds of iron into silver, or 10 pounds of lead into gold. This item cannot be used by anyone else than the alchemist who made it.
lastknightleft 10-30-07, 11:50 AM	Hey I created an Alchemist class for the game I'm playing in now, we should compare:D
Prince_of_Parkness 10-30-07, 12:38 PM	Actually, the unlimited uses way isn't as unbalancing as you might think. Where does all the gold go? The party will be able to buy pretty much anything they want, for a while... but the gold stays in circulation. It gets used by the people that sold stuff to the PCs: they hand it over to other people to buy other stuff. So after a short while, your PCs will have broken the bank. Huge inflation will set in, with famine, war and general desperation on its heels. The PCs will be responsible for this. They must find a way to deal with the consequences... maybe a magical way can be found to change all that gold back into lead? Also, where does all the lead come from? It must be bought somewhere. Over time, the prices of lead and gold would become near equivalent, at least in the vicinity of the PCs, those well-known ultimate alchemists. I cant make an educated arguemnt against that, but Id have a hard time believing that one adventuring party could do that to the whole ecominy. If loads of people used it then sure, but otherwise the inpact on the value of gold would neglegable You point about obtaining the lead however is quite a good one
Bhaelfur 10-30-07, 12:42 PM	Philosopher's stones are peoplllllllleee! You could go that route, much like Full Metal Alchemist, where the requirement to make a philosopher's stone is a mass sacrifice. Also, another route you could take, keep the philosopher's stone as is, but keep up the rumors and hype that it's the greatest treasure and can do all that stuff. Sure, it might be a let down in the end, but could work, I suppose...
Artector 10-30-07, 12:51 PM	They could find the Artifact unbeefed. Then they have to figure out how to reproduce it. There's 2 games. Plus if you make resurrection magic harder to obtain and more costly the stone would seem much more valuble.
icuall 10-30-07, 01:34 PM	I have not read the description of the artifact. However, if you are concerned about turning things into gold and the party getting too rich, and thus unbalancing the game. I would limit the amount of gold it can produce on either an weight amount per day, or an amount per week, etc. Or it has another limitation that the object to be converted to gold has to be prepared in a special process that incurs expenses. Such as it has to be lead that is purified and seeded with gold. You determine the percentage required. The end result is that they Net the difference the Stone makes. For example the process requires a 35% gold mixed in with lead (and only lead or copper depending on the process you create). It is a one pound of lead. The gold that is seeded, 1/3 lb, converts with the lead to gold and you have only 1 lb of gold now after the special process is completed. They gain only 2/3 lbs of gold by SRD is 32 gold pieces (50 x 65%). I think I would place both limitations to the process and then monitor their wealth it they using the Stone constantly to adjust the treasure they are receiving.
Saiyamantis 10-31-07, 01:37 AM	How's this, Caractacus? I got bored earlier today and whipped up an improved philosopher's stone you might want to use. MAGNUM OPUS Price (Item Level): — (artifact) Body Slot: — Caster Level: 21st Aura: overwhelming (DC 25); transmutation Activation: see text Weight: 3 lb. The fist-sized crimson stone in your hands glitters from deep within. Gripping it sends a strange tingle throughout your body. The magnum opus is typically found with 100 charges, but may be found with fewer. Any spell that identifies the stone also reveals the number of charges remaining. When the stone has no charges remaining, it crumbles to dust and is gone forever. The magnum opus's charges can be used in four ways: purifying materials, assisting item creation, enhancing transmutation, and brewing an elixir of life. Purify Materials: When powedered and mixed with at least 1 pound of earth, stone or metal for an hour, the magnum opus transforms the substance into gold of equivalent weight. Each charge drained from the magnum opus can transform up to 5 pounds of material. Assist Item Creation: If present during the creation of a magic item, the magnum opus matches the creator's input in both gold pieces and experience points, effectively doubling his progress for the day. Using the magnum opus to assist item creation drains 1 charge per 250 gold pieces worth of progress provided, rounded up. Enhance Transmutation: By adding a portion of the magnum opus as an additional material component, a spellcaster can spontaneously apply any metamagic feat he knows to a transmutation spell without increasing the spell's level or casting time. Enhancing transmutation drains 2 charges, plus 2 additional charges for level increase of the metamagic feat. Multiple metamagic feats can be applied to a single spell in this fashion, but each feat applied counts as a separate use of this ability. Elixir of Life: The magnum opus can be used to prepare an elixir that extends the user's current age category by one year. The elixir also delays all future age categories by one year, but has no effect on previous age categories. For example, a middle-aged human who consumed an elixir of life would become old at 54 years and venerable at 71 years, but could never become adult again using this ability. The effects of multiple elixirs stack. Preparing an elixir of life drains 20 charges. If the magnum opus has 200 or more charges remaining, it can be made into a much more powerful elixir of life. When consumed, the elixir permanently halts the aging process and removes all penalties (but not bonuses) accrued from aging. Creating an enhanced elixir of life drains all charges from the magnum opus, destroying the stone. In addition to the uses above, the magnum opus gradually decays on the Material Plane, losing 1 charge per week. No mortal magic, can prevent this decay, including time-altering magic such as temporal stasis. Moving the stone to an inner plane halves the rate of decay, while moving it to an outer plane halts the process until the stone leaves the plane. As long as the magnum opus has at least 1 charge remaining, it can be regenerated by a character with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Regeneration requires 8 hours of work in an alchemist's lab and regeants costing 500 gp. An artificer may choose to spend 10 craft points to reduce either the time or cost by half. At the end of the procedure, the stone regains 2 charges. LORE: A successful Knowledge (arcana) checks reveals the following information. DC 15- You have heard of a legendary red stone called the magnum opus that can grant its owner great wealth. DC 20- Sometimes called alkahest, carmot, or chrysopoeia, the magnum opus can perform miraculous acts of transmutation, including the creation of pure gold. DC 25- The magnum opus can be used to ward off old age and death. An especially potent sample could could grant its bearer eternal youth. DC 30- The purity of the magnum opus is degraded by mortal realms. Those skilled in magical craftsmanship can restore its purity with sufficient time and effort.