Absolutely *required* Deities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Absolutely *required* Deities? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rumple_Cragstan
11-17-06, 10:51 PM I've been working on the pantheons for my campaign world lately, and I've got some basic ideas.

First, the greater gods are revered worldwide (Pelor, Nerull, Boccob) because they are just that cool, and they represent needed parts of everyday life.

Then, each nation will have its own pantheon of gods. They all exist, but they're revered in specific areas and thus become regional deities. In each nation, I figured I need a few gods, with thier own purposes:

A) Primary Diety for people of that nation to worship, outside of the main gods.

B) Villain Diety for bad NPCs to worship.

C) Nuetral Deity to give the illusion of realism in the game.

D) Nature god for druids to worship.

Now, with these things said, is there anything else that I absolutely require to make this world seem real?
Majick
11-17-06, 11:02 PM If worship is mandatory there would be rebels of the faith (Ur-Priests) as well as disbelievers, possibly new religions coming up that have confliction with the old faiths. There would also be a lot of religios waring, and if the gods played a bigger part in this, would clerics (or druids) run the show? How is magic affected by this? Is it heretical? Outlawed? Have there been any planar incidents, being that the gods come from other planes and so do celestial and demon/devils?

Think about all that and you'll be fine :cool:
Rumple_Cragstan
11-17-06, 11:34 PM Everything else is per normal D&D world... magic is not outlawed, and religion is not mandatory.
Neutronium_Dragon
11-17-06, 11:35 PM The problem is that it's extremely formulaic. No matter where you are, you've got the same four "national gods", they're just waving different flags. You might as well just have them be worldwide ones at that rate.

The national pantheons should be more varied than that, and not always filling those four cliched roles. Not every pantheon needs to have a "head god" and not every pantheon needs to have an "enemy of everyone else god", etc.
nome.
11-17-06, 11:57 PM You could have a monotheistic religion who believes ONLY in their god, and rejects the others as either false or demonic.

You could have a religion that believes in many, many, many gods, some of thom are aspects of others.

You could have a religion believes that whether the gods exist or not, they have no business bothering humans.

Etc, etc.

Like a previous poster says, it'll be really formulaic and boring if you have the same "template" for every nation. Try having the nations having different religions.. like the real world, only the gods demonstrably exist. Also, you could have nations which share religions, or possibly share most of a religion and disagree on certain points..
And, of course, not every nation has to have a national religion, and that national religion ins't necessarily held by everyone. There's all sorts of opportunities for strife, war, and oppression, if you want a somewhat grittier campaign.
If you don't want those real-world trappings in your fantasy, it's probably best to have everyone believe int he same gods..
kelvinaw273
11-18-06, 12:26 AM You could have the same deities known by different names throughout the world, with different cultures emphasising different facets of said deities, and honouring different deities as the chief of the pantheon.
tsuyoshikentsu
11-18-06, 12:44 AM Try this: four cultures. Each picks a different deity as the chief one, and picks the others accordingly. This shapes their culture.
Illion the Red
11-19-06, 08:58 AM I would suggest backing up to your concept of a cosmology first and deciding this:

Do the deities have power innately, or is it derived from their worshipers (number and quality of worshipers)?

Each different answer creates a cosmology that is vastly different than the other. For example, if the deities derive their power from their worshipers, you can bet that they will be much more apt to answer prayers and be actively involved in the world.

I, personally prefer it this way as it allows for deities to arise from superstitions and that can just plain be fun...
PSchirf
11-19-06, 09:08 AM I don't think that the 4(+3) gods per country idea will lead to a formulaic setting, provided you create rituals, requirements, etc. that make each grouping very distinct from the others. Does your land include territories that are controlled by humanoid races? To me, a game setting to seems more real if there is a hobgoblin country, an ogre country, a land controlled by giants (perhaps with a Dwarf realm under the giants), etc. The "local four" may be very different in the orc land from the "local four" in the elf land. Remember, even if they fill the same role doesn't mean that they do it in the same way.

I'd setup the cosmology in a way that has the gods themselves coming up with the land areas. The gods may have agreed not to grant spells to anyone born outside of their area of influence.

Another thing I'd do: Drop the use of the Pelor, Nerull, and Boccob names. Even if you make your big three resemble these write-ups, use your own names for the divine beings.
Spadgris
11-19-06, 09:21 AM You could have a religion believes that whether the gods exist or not, they have no business bothering humans.

And the gods of that religion likes to bother their worshippers just for fun. Big flashing signs in the sky that says "DISBELIEVE", lightening striking near people who says that Gods are [or should be more] active.
Cifer
11-19-06, 02:41 PM And the gods of that religion likes to bother their worshippers just for fun. Big flashing signs in the sky that says "DISBELIEVE", lightening striking near people who says that Gods are [or should be more] active.
They might worship ideals, just like clerics who are too lazy to bother picking a deity. They could see the gods as conducts to said ideals (giving e.g. a set of domains), but by no means necessary for accessing them.
Sim_antix
11-19-06, 03:24 PM I use all of the Dieties from history in the different regions of my world. I just have them worship the entire pantheon usually while maybe leaving out some of the lesser Gods.

The twist is that in my world all of the Gods that have significant overlap of domains are actually the same God. So instead of there being three seperate Gods of War there is only One who is just known as different names and revered for different aspects in different parts of the world.
Kaligrad
11-19-06, 04:41 PM I did some research recently of my own when I fleshed out the gods of my own setting. Basically, there are certain portfolios that have to be covered due to the nature of humanity irregardless of individual culture.

A sun and/or sky god (often pantheon leader)
A god of death (not necessarily evil)
A god of the ocean and/or weather (if by the sea)
A god of the community (usually not worshipped by adventurers, but still there)
A god of fertility (usually holds double duty over both sentients and their food production; can be the same as the weather god in certain conditions)
And, of course, given the setting, a god of magic.

Also, evil gods aren't all dark cults and hidden rights. Some evil gods are worshipped openly by the public in order to avoid their wrath.
AntiDjinn
11-19-06, 11:05 PM You could also have splinter cults with their own method of worship and various monster racial religions. The orcs in a given region should not automatically worship the local human's god of evil; they should have their own religion.

A given primative population might worship their ancestors instead of deities. This would be a good model if you include the Spirit Shaman or Shugenja (Complete Divine).
Oakspar77777
11-20-06, 12:36 AM Another way to keep the 4 deities simple is to have them be universal.

A good way to do this would be to limit the pantheon to just these four gods (or else limit them to a major pantheon with minor deities beneath them).

Tie each deity to one of the four seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. Each deity would be NN, but allow all alignments.

Then, give them domains (and lots of them with only four choices). You might want to attribute Good to Summer, Chaos to Fall, Death to Winter, and Law to Spring (or flip summer and spring if you want a "progression" calander (good to law to chaos to evil to good) rather than a polar opposite calander (summer good, winter evil). Fall would get wind, Winter earth, Spring water, and Summer fire.

From there, you just tweak what the pantheon looks like in each town. Is one town, Fall might be the dark harbinger of death (halloween anyone?), but in another it might be the joyeous harbinger of pleanty (thanksgiving anyone?). Winter might be the cold season of death or the warm season of friends, family, and home (christmas). Spring might be a happy season of rebirth, or a wrathful deity of floods, storms, tornadoes, and rot. Summer might be a happy god of blue skies and easy days to one people, but the relentless and ruthless causes of famine, drought, and thirst in another.

So, same four gods, but while a cleric might be a hero in one town, they might be feared or a villian in another, not due to alignment, but due to local predujusices against that cleric's god.
Cifer
11-20-06, 05:14 PM And, of course, given the setting, a god of magic.
Actually, this one is the one I feel that is missed the most easily. Wizards have a tendency to be arrogant - and when you've got almost deific forces at your disposal, why should you worship anyone else?
Andrew
11-21-06, 08:29 AM It's really just a question of what role you want deities to play in your campaign. All you really need are deities to work as the patrons for your paladin, cleric, and favored soul PC's and NPC's, which even then you can do without if you support the "serving an ideal" approach. So you need one deity that's within a step of LG. You can even have the evil side held up by the demon princes and archdevils if you want. Druids and rangers work fine revering the non-personified natural world. I'm certainly not making a play for monotheism in D&D, but rather pointing out that there's very little you actually need to make the game work for characters.

If your view of the cosmology has the view that deities exist to take responsibility for the available portfolios, then you'll need a full spread of them.

If you want to use different deities as hallmarks of different cultures, I would try to either to create gods that reflect the needs and attitudes of your different nations, or alternatively highlight significantly different approaches to belief, for example one pantheon might be the typical bearded-guy-in-the-sky approach, another nation might follow a druidic faith, and a third one might revere specific personified animal patrons, like a Great Bear, Raven, Owl, etc.

You might also try having a traditional pantheon that tends to be neutral, but the gods within it are viewed very differently by neighboring states: a CN fire god is one nation's muse that they think of as CG and another nation treats them as a CE dark trickster.
Misfit815
11-21-06, 09:33 AM I struggled for a while with coming up with a decent pantheon for my campaign world. My solution ended up being one that doesn't seem quite right in theory, but works great in practice.

Basically, I come up with deities as I need them. As one example, a plot I was forming for a forum-post game revolved around main (and pretty much only) church in a frontier town. I wanted something pretty common and plain, so I went with Pelor. However, after the conclusion of the adventure, I plan on going back and basically tweaking a couple of items and turning Pelor into my own sun-god.

As another example, I have a tabletop campaign with a dwarven Ftr/Clr. Basically, a dwarven god similar to Clanggedin was introduced, although with the Earth domain figuring in prominently. I'm already working on a Prestige Class for clerics of this god that's turning out to be fairly interesting.

As part of that campaign, there will be an elven deity involved - somewhat similar to Sehanine Moonbow, but really a recently-ascended elven princess. So I'm fleshing her out now.

Basically, my plan is to either come up with deities that fit my individual plots (like the elven princess) or simply ask the players what kind of deity they'd like. If they mention one of the 'canned' deities, that would be my starting point for a more customized one.

One day, down the road, I'll have a complete pantheon (theoretically, anyway). In the meantime, I'm simply coming up with what's needed as it's needed (similar to how I'm developing the campaign world in general, in fact). It's working out remarkably well.
tharivol266
11-21-06, 09:40 AM there is only one abslutely required diety and that is the great Dee Em which all characters should already worship. If for some reason Dee Em is not what you want to see in a god you could always go with his simple brother Gee Em*

*note this is a joke and i have nothing against the title GM or anyone who uses it.
Sulaco
11-21-06, 09:51 AM Now, with these things said, is there anything else that I absolutely require to make this world seem real?

There is nothing about a system of religion in the game that makes the world seem more "real," other than perhaps having people constantly killing each other over it.
Millennium
11-21-06, 10:15 AM There are three roles you still need to fill, roles that are not only common to real-world faiths but who have come into almost all D&D pantheons as well. These figures don't have to actually be gods, as long as they are significant to the faith in some way.

First, you need a trickster: someone who inverts the regular values of society. The trickster doesn't have to be evil; sometimes it's merely capricious, and a few tricksters are outright benevolent. Hermes from Greek mythology and Uzume from Shinto are good examples of non-malicious tricksters. The most famous example of an evil trickster is probably Satan from the Levantine faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), though Loki from the Norse faith also works. Olidammara and Garl Glittergold work well from Greyhawk, and Tymora from Forgotten Realms also works. Lastai from the Book of Exalted Deeds is an atypical trickster, and she probably wouldn't want the role, but she does fill it in some ways.

A hero-figure is also needed: someone who brings light and hope to the people. I don't think I've ever actually seen an evil hero-figure in real-world faiths, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Real-world examples of hero-figures are readily available: among gods you have Prometheus from Greece and Horus from Egypt, while the Buddha gives a good example of a human hero-figure and the Levantine faiths are chock full of other human examples. Jesus also provides an example, but whether you consider him a human hero or a deific hero delves into some complex theological questions, which is why I mention him separately. In Greyhawk terms, Saint Cuthbert and Heironeous provide the most obvious hero-figures.

You also need a mother-figure. Human mother-figures are rare, but arguably the most famous mother-figure is a human one: Mary from Christianity. Among deific mother-figures, just about every Earth-deity who's ever existed winds up filling this role. Gaea and Demeter from Greece, Isis from Egypt, and Wicca's Goddess are all famous in this role. Ehlonna from Greyhawk fits this better than Obad-Hai does, and Chauntea from Forgotten Realms fits better than either of them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rumple_Cragstan 11-17-06, 10:51 PM	I've been working on the pantheons for my campaign world lately, and I've got some basic ideas. First, the greater gods are revered worldwide (Pelor, Nerull, Boccob) because they are just that cool, and they represent needed parts of everyday life. Then, each nation will have its own pantheon of gods. They all exist, but they're revered in specific areas and thus become regional deities. In each nation, I figured I need a few gods, with thier own purposes: A) Primary Diety for people of that nation to worship, outside of the main gods. B) Villain Diety for bad NPCs to worship. C) Nuetral Deity to give the illusion of realism in the game. D) Nature god for druids to worship. Now, with these things said, is there anything else that I absolutely require to make this world seem real?
Majick 11-17-06, 11:02 PM	If worship is mandatory there would be rebels of the faith (Ur-Priests) as well as disbelievers, possibly new religions coming up that have confliction with the old faiths. There would also be a lot of religios waring, and if the gods played a bigger part in this, would clerics (or druids) run the show? How is magic affected by this? Is it heretical? Outlawed? Have there been any planar incidents, being that the gods come from other planes and so do celestial and demon/devils? Think about all that and you'll be fine :cool:
Rumple_Cragstan 11-17-06, 11:34 PM	Everything else is per normal D&D world... magic is not outlawed, and religion is not mandatory.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-17-06, 11:35 PM	The problem is that it's extremely formulaic. No matter where you are, you've got the same four "national gods", they're just waving different flags. You might as well just have them be worldwide ones at that rate. The national pantheons should be more varied than that, and not always filling those four cliched roles. Not every pantheon needs to have a "head god" and not every pantheon needs to have an "enemy of everyone else god", etc.
nome. 11-17-06, 11:57 PM	You could have a monotheistic religion who believes ONLY in their god, and rejects the others as either false or demonic. You could have a religion that believes in many, many, many gods, some of thom are aspects of others. You could have a religion believes that whether the gods exist or not, they have no business bothering humans. Etc, etc. Like a previous poster says, it'll be really formulaic and boring if you have the same "template" for every nation. Try having the nations having different religions.. like the real world, only the gods demonstrably exist. Also, you could have nations which share religions, or possibly share most of a religion and disagree on certain points.. And, of course, not every nation has to have a national religion, and that national religion ins't necessarily held by everyone. There's all sorts of opportunities for strife, war, and oppression, if you want a somewhat grittier campaign. If you don't want those real-world trappings in your fantasy, it's probably best to have everyone believe int he same gods..
kelvinaw273 11-18-06, 12:26 AM	You could have the same deities known by different names throughout the world, with different cultures emphasising different facets of said deities, and honouring different deities as the chief of the pantheon.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-18-06, 12:44 AM	Try this: four cultures. Each picks a different deity as the chief one, and picks the others accordingly. This shapes their culture.
Illion the Red 11-19-06, 08:58 AM	I would suggest backing up to your concept of a cosmology first and deciding this: Do the deities have power innately, or is it derived from their worshipers (number and quality of worshipers)? Each different answer creates a cosmology that is vastly different than the other. For example, if the deities derive their power from their worshipers, you can bet that they will be much more apt to answer prayers and be actively involved in the world. I, personally prefer it this way as it allows for deities to arise from superstitions and that can just plain be fun...
PSchirf 11-19-06, 09:08 AM	I don't think that the 4(+3) gods per country idea will lead to a formulaic setting, provided you create rituals, requirements, etc. that make each grouping very distinct from the others. Does your land include territories that are controlled by humanoid races? To me, a game setting to seems more real if there is a hobgoblin country, an ogre country, a land controlled by giants (perhaps with a Dwarf realm under the giants), etc. The "local four" may be very different in the orc land from the "local four" in the elf land. Remember, even if they fill the same role doesn't mean that they do it in the same way. I'd setup the cosmology in a way that has the gods themselves coming up with the land areas. The gods may have agreed not to grant spells to anyone born outside of their area of influence. Another thing I'd do: Drop the use of the Pelor, Nerull, and Boccob names. Even if you make your big three resemble these write-ups, use your own names for the divine beings.
Spadgris 11-19-06, 09:21 AM	You could have a religion believes that whether the gods exist or not, they have no business bothering humans. And the gods of that religion likes to bother their worshippers just for fun. Big flashing signs in the sky that says "DISBELIEVE", lightening striking near people who says that Gods are [or should be more] active.
Cifer 11-19-06, 02:41 PM	And the gods of that religion likes to bother their worshippers just for fun. Big flashing signs in the sky that says "DISBELIEVE", lightening striking near people who says that Gods are [or should be more] active. They might worship ideals, just like clerics who are too lazy to bother picking a deity. They could see the gods as conducts to said ideals (giving e.g. a set of domains), but by no means necessary for accessing them.
Sim_antix 11-19-06, 03:24 PM	I use all of the Dieties from history in the different regions of my world. I just have them worship the entire pantheon usually while maybe leaving out some of the lesser Gods. The twist is that in my world all of the Gods that have significant overlap of domains are actually the same God. So instead of there being three seperate Gods of War there is only One who is just known as different names and revered for different aspects in different parts of the world.
Kaligrad 11-19-06, 04:41 PM	I did some research recently of my own when I fleshed out the gods of my own setting. Basically, there are certain portfolios that have to be covered due to the nature of humanity irregardless of individual culture. A sun and/or sky god (often pantheon leader) A god of death (not necessarily evil) A god of the ocean and/or weather (if by the sea) A god of the community (usually not worshipped by adventurers, but still there) A god of fertility (usually holds double duty over both sentients and their food production; can be the same as the weather god in certain conditions) And, of course, given the setting, a god of magic. Also, evil gods aren't all dark cults and hidden rights. Some evil gods are worshipped openly by the public in order to avoid their wrath.
AntiDjinn 11-19-06, 11:05 PM	You could also have splinter cults with their own method of worship and various monster racial religions. The orcs in a given region should not automatically worship the local human's god of evil; they should have their own religion. A given primative population might worship their ancestors instead of deities. This would be a good model if you include the Spirit Shaman or Shugenja (Complete Divine).
Oakspar77777 11-20-06, 12:36 AM	Another way to keep the 4 deities simple is to have them be universal. A good way to do this would be to limit the pantheon to just these four gods (or else limit them to a major pantheon with minor deities beneath them). Tie each deity to one of the four seasons: Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. Each deity would be NN, but allow all alignments. Then, give them domains (and lots of them with only four choices). You might want to attribute Good to Summer, Chaos to Fall, Death to Winter, and Law to Spring (or flip summer and spring if you want a "progression" calander (good to law to chaos to evil to good) rather than a polar opposite calander (summer good, winter evil). Fall would get wind, Winter earth, Spring water, and Summer fire. From there, you just tweak what the pantheon looks like in each town. Is one town, Fall might be the dark harbinger of death (halloween anyone?), but in another it might be the joyeous harbinger of pleanty (thanksgiving anyone?). Winter might be the cold season of death or the warm season of friends, family, and home (christmas). Spring might be a happy season of rebirth, or a wrathful deity of floods, storms, tornadoes, and rot. Summer might be a happy god of blue skies and easy days to one people, but the relentless and ruthless causes of famine, drought, and thirst in another. So, same four gods, but while a cleric might be a hero in one town, they might be feared or a villian in another, not due to alignment, but due to local predujusices against that cleric's god.
Cifer 11-20-06, 05:14 PM	And, of course, given the setting, a god of magic. Actually, this one is the one I feel that is missed the most easily. Wizards have a tendency to be arrogant - and when you've got almost deific forces at your disposal, why should you worship anyone else?
Andrew 11-21-06, 08:29 AM	It's really just a question of what role you want deities to play in your campaign. All you really need are deities to work as the patrons for your paladin, cleric, and favored soul PC's and NPC's, which even then you can do without if you support the "serving an ideal" approach. So you need one deity that's within a step of LG. You can even have the evil side held up by the demon princes and archdevils if you want. Druids and rangers work fine revering the non-personified natural world. I'm certainly not making a play for monotheism in D&D, but rather pointing out that there's very little you actually need to make the game work for characters. If your view of the cosmology has the view that deities exist to take responsibility for the available portfolios, then you'll need a full spread of them. If you want to use different deities as hallmarks of different cultures, I would try to either to create gods that reflect the needs and attitudes of your different nations, or alternatively highlight significantly different approaches to belief, for example one pantheon might be the typical bearded-guy-in-the-sky approach, another nation might follow a druidic faith, and a third one might revere specific personified animal patrons, like a Great Bear, Raven, Owl, etc. You might also try having a traditional pantheon that tends to be neutral, but the gods within it are viewed very differently by neighboring states: a CN fire god is one nation's muse that they think of as CG and another nation treats them as a CE dark trickster.
Misfit815 11-21-06, 09:33 AM	I struggled for a while with coming up with a decent pantheon for my campaign world. My solution ended up being one that doesn't seem quite right in theory, but works great in practice. Basically, I come up with deities as I need them. As one example, a plot I was forming for a forum-post game revolved around main (and pretty much only) church in a frontier town. I wanted something pretty common and plain, so I went with Pelor. However, after the conclusion of the adventure, I plan on going back and basically tweaking a couple of items and turning Pelor into my own sun-god. As another example, I have a tabletop campaign with a dwarven Ftr/Clr. Basically, a dwarven god similar to Clanggedin was introduced, although with the Earth domain figuring in prominently. I'm already working on a Prestige Class for clerics of this god that's turning out to be fairly interesting. As part of that campaign, there will be an elven deity involved - somewhat similar to Sehanine Moonbow, but really a recently-ascended elven princess. So I'm fleshing her out now. Basically, my plan is to either come up with deities that fit my individual plots (like the elven princess) or simply ask the players what kind of deity they'd like. If they mention one of the 'canned' deities, that would be my starting point for a more customized one. One day, down the road, I'll have a complete pantheon (theoretically, anyway). In the meantime, I'm simply coming up with what's needed as it's needed (similar to how I'm developing the campaign world in general, in fact). It's working out remarkably well.
tharivol266 11-21-06, 09:40 AM	there is only one abslutely required diety and that is the great Dee Em which all characters should already worship. If for some reason Dee Em is not what you want to see in a god you could always go with his simple brother Gee Em* *note this is a joke and i have nothing against the title GM or anyone who uses it.
Sulaco 11-21-06, 09:51 AM	Now, with these things said, is there anything else that I absolutely require to make this world seem real? There is nothing about a system of religion in the game that makes the world seem more "real," other than perhaps having people constantly killing each other over it.
Millennium 11-21-06, 10:15 AM	There are three roles you still need to fill, roles that are not only common to real-world faiths but who have come into almost all D&D pantheons as well. These figures don't have to actually be gods, as long as they are significant to the faith in some way. First, you need a trickster: someone who inverts the regular values of society. The trickster doesn't have to be evil; sometimes it's merely capricious, and a few tricksters are outright benevolent. Hermes from Greek mythology and Uzume from Shinto are good examples of non-malicious tricksters. The most famous example of an evil trickster is probably Satan from the Levantine faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), though Loki from the Norse faith also works. Olidammara and Garl Glittergold work well from Greyhawk, and Tymora from Forgotten Realms also works. Lastai from the Book of Exalted Deeds is an atypical trickster, and she probably wouldn't want the role, but she does fill it in some ways. A hero-figure is also needed: someone who brings light and hope to the people. I don't think I've ever actually seen an evil hero-figure in real-world faiths, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Real-world examples of hero-figures are readily available: among gods you have Prometheus from Greece and Horus from Egypt, while the Buddha gives a good example of a human hero-figure and the Levantine faiths are chock full of other human examples. Jesus also provides an example, but whether you consider him a human hero or a deific hero delves into some complex theological questions, which is why I mention him separately. In Greyhawk terms, Saint Cuthbert and Heironeous provide the most obvious hero-figures. You also need a mother-figure. Human mother-figures are rare, but arguably the most famous mother-figure is a human one: Mary from Christianity. Among deific mother-figures, just about every Earth-deity who's ever existed winds up filling this role. Gaea and Demeter from Greece, Isis from Egypt, and Wicca's Goddess are all famous in this role. Ehlonna from Greyhawk fits this better than Obad-Hai does, and Chauntea from Forgotten Realms fits better than either of them.