Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cyberia23 06-11-05, 04:15 PM	In my first high-level D&D game that I ever ran (and maybe my last at this moment), one of my players, a 20th level wizard, uses a gate spell to open a portal to the negative material plane right under an ancient wyrm red dragon the party was to fight. This was the wizard's quick way of trying to destroy the beast by sending him falling into oblivion then instantaneously closing the gate so he couldn't escape. Gate is a standard action to cast and only needs to be concentrated upon to keep it open. I figured the dragon would get at least a save or something to get out of the portal's way, but the gate spell offers no saving throw of any kind and the wizard can place the portal anywhere horizontally or vertically he chooses. I ended up ruling that the portal cannot open in a place where solid matter exists. Instead, it is shunted to the nearest "open area", and the portal opened right next to the dragon instead of under him. Since these gates don't "suck" things into them (beings can freely pass into or out of them) the dragon cannot fall into it that easily. This of course caused an incredible amount of unfair whining and protesting from my players who thought it was an amazing idea and wanted the easy way past the bad guy. The player of the wizard constantly says D&D is the most "broken" game every made, and he does a good job of only finding loop-holes in the rules and exploit them. What should I have done in this case, or would anyone here have done the same?
wonlee76 06-11-05, 04:26 PM	Gate Conjuration (Creation or Calling) Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S, XP; see text Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: See text Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction. Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate. The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side. A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not. So your PC tries to make a circular hoop underneath the dragon so that the dragon should "fall" into the hoop into whatever plane of existence that the wizard chooses. The spell specifically says the gate is from 5 to 20 feet in diameter. So lets say he picks the biggest size possible since it is an ancient red dragon. An Ancient red dragon is gargantuan in size and takes up a 20 foot space (20 x 20 space on a grid). I would have ruled the dragon is able to grab the sides of the gate to prevent from falling into it since his size is greater then the size of the gate. (Take a 20 x 20 foot cube and try to fit that into a 20 foot diameter circle). Nice and simple solution. No saves needed, just a basic understanding of geometry. If you let the wizard "one shot" the dragon, I would've diminished the xp that the group got substantially because the dragon proved to be no real threat or challenge to the PCs since the wizard could one shot him with gate. :P The other issue is whether a dragon would die in the Negative Material Plane to begin with and the fact that the dragon in question isa 15th level sorceror. I believe that's high enough level for the dragon to have access to Plane Shift. :P If I was feeling really mean I would have let the wizard's plan succeed and have the red dragon planeshift back to deal with the impudent mortals.
GDwarf 06-11-05, 04:33 PM	That is the problem with gate, the fact that you can form it under opponents. But it's not a creative idea, it's been done to death. I personally like your house rule about solid matter, it keeps the core idea of the spell, but gets rid of it's horrible brokenness. If you really don't want your players to complain I recommend your BBEGs all start having some way to travel across planes. (Maybe they all have a Sorcerer/Wizard who also knows the gate spell and is standing by to get them back, that sort of thing.)
Szat 06-11-05, 05:23 PM	No it's a viable attack method. Don't houserule anything just focus on the fact that the dragon won't get PULLED through. So a whole opens up underneath him...........what's an Ancient Red Dragon's Strength? Nuff' said. Additionally don't worry about them "one-shotting" your monsters. That's a 9th level spell, if the wizard thinks he's nifty by continually doing that he'll quickly learn that's not an economic use of a 9th level spell.
Merryadocc 06-11-05, 05:32 PM	When ever a player finds an abuse, find a NPC to do it to them :evillaugh Rules are double sided swords, they cut both ways. :schemes:
Astinex 06-11-05, 05:33 PM	The other issue is whether a dragon would die in the Negative Material Plane to begin with and the fact that the dragon in question isa 15th level sorceror. I believe that's high enough level for the dragon to have access to Plane Shift. :P If I was feeling really mean I would have let the wizard's plan succeed and have the red dragon planeshift back to deal with the impudent mortals. IIRC, any living creature that touches pure negative energy from the Negative Energy Plane is instantly killed, but at the same time turned into undead. An Anchent Red Dragon is a bit over 10HD the limit for a simple zombie. So I'd have the dragon become a Dracolich and come back via Planeshift. This time he hovers in place to ensure the Wizard doesn't try the Gate trick with the Positive Energy Plane.
Flushmaster 06-11-05, 05:34 PM	The player is a bratty munchkin and a jerk. His "great idea" is dumb. No, gate doesn't list a saving throw because it's not a spell made to affect a target. If the dragon suddenly notices a gaping maw beneath it then this is where wings come into play; dragons can fly, remember? I'd have the dragon take flight above the mage and make a crush attack. Squishy mage.
Bane's hand 06-11-05, 05:36 PM	Problem with reason-defying tactics like that is that if you ever try something like: DM:Initiative people! Players:Uh?Why? DM:You'll know! Players:Well ok,we've got 8,11,14,18 DM:Tough luck. The invincible flying wizard which just teleported above you casts gate beneath your feet while you set camp. You are all instantly teleported to "Insert horrid plane here" and you die. the answers you will get will propably be Players:You suck! You cheat! You are horrible! You hate us! I never want to play with you again! while it seems perfectly "normal" for them to "use" the "advantages: of their resources. Well, as Skip Williams(if i recall right) once said "If a particular use of a spell is not included in the spell description, then the spell was not meant to do it." If your players are reasonable(which is a rare blessing) you will be able to argue with them that a cheesy tactic must be housed ruled away because -If the players use it then the encounters become frustaingly easy -However if such a tactic existed with the rules then it is perfectly normal to assume than it would be common knowledge till now and everyone would be using it. Especially if we are talking about arcane spells which are cast from brilliant creatures. So,if they are able to see reason you can suggest the following clarifications to the spell: -That it cannot be cast on any space occupied by solid matter or another creature From the SRD A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. Since the creature is touching the floor and there is no space between it in the floor then (assuming the Gate is an object) it cannot be cast beneath a creature's feet. That looks the most reasonable thing to me and is how i would handle it. -Alternatively,if you think that the Gate is not an object you could rule out that the Gate allows a Reflex save to jump away which also makes perfect sense. If they disagree at both of these rulings then have the dragon have "Plane shift" as one of his chosen spells, polymorph into a human, go and buy himself a couple of Gate Scrolls with money from his 2nd lair, cast invisibility on himself and Gate them to Tiamat's Lair. After that look for another group. Common Sense tends to be quite uncommon
Gekkepop 06-11-05, 05:45 PM	Whenever my players find something really broken in the rules, I let them have their fun for one or two encounters, then I ask: "Do you really want the rules to work that way in my campaign?" So, far, the answer has always been: "No." If they say yes, they have just given you the right to kill them horribly with an NPC who uses the rules abuse in an even worse way than they do.
Always-Late 06-11-05, 06:00 PM	Munch munch munch munch munch. 1. Dragons can fly. 2. Dragons are too big. 3. Gate can't be cast in matter. 4. Walking things would get a save (even a talisman of pure good allows a reflex save) for falling. 5. Things can survive in the negative energy plane. They just take 1d6 damage per round and make a DC 25 fortitude save to avoid level drain. With a +28 to fortitude saves, that's no problem. 6. You can't fall through something instantaneously. 7. If you find loopholes in the rules, they shouldn't be there. End of story. 8. People who horribly abuse the rules and then whine about not being able to should not be playing. End of story.
Wayne 06-11-05, 06:27 PM	A lot of misunderstanding about the spell in this thread. :/ Gate can be cast in a floor, if they player wants it to be. It's "oriented in the direction you desire," and since it's "two-dimension" it doesn't matter if you place it on top of solid matter or not; if the creature's inside the Gate when you conjure it, it's gone. "Anything that moves through"-- this includes falling-- "is shunted to the other side." Now, the Gate is a "circular hoop" up to 20' in diameter... that's a circle, and this dragon has [I think] 20' facing. So he wouldn't fit in the Gate by the rules, since his space is larger than the area affected by the Gate. In any event, that use of Gate isn't why it's broken. What's wrong is that the player, once he saw the dragon; could've just cast Death Ward (or had it cast on him), Plane Shift to the Negative Energy Plane, and burned 1000 XP to Gate the dragon there, and order it to stay there and die. He's going to get more XP than what he lost by killing the dragon (and before anyone says any nonsense about how "It wasn't a threat, give it less XP," try that on the party Rogue next time he coup de gras's somebody, or when the Wizard gets lucky with Finger of Death in round 1 :P), so why wouldn't he do that? There's no save, no SR, no nothing except what Andy Collins called "a 1000 XP Death effect" (or the quote was attributed to him, anyway). Anyway.... The player of the wizard constantly says D&D is the most "broken" game every made, and he does a good job of only finding loop-holes in the rules and exploit them. He's mostly right. There's games that are more broken, but high-level D&D has so many ways to get functionally game-breaking power (and even a couple infinite loops) that it's probably up there. Sad but true. What should I have done in this case, or would anyone here have done the same? Houserule. Gate will ruin your game if you play it as-is and the players know that. It kicks all other transportation spells in the pants with its first function, and basically kills anyone the PCs know about with the second. Even if you use minor changes like not letting Gate exist "in solid matter" or allowing people to go back and forth through the Gate, that still doesn't fix "dumping people that can't fly or teleport into the Plane of Fire"-- and your warrior PCs aren't going to be happy when that happens to them, heh. I advise nerfing it in whatever way you deem appropriate. I've completely altered Gate; its two functions are Superior Planar Binding (HD cap raised to 24 HD, normal restrictions*), and "Connect two Planes" (and this form of Gate has a casting time of one minute during which time it's visible at both ends, but lasts for 1 minute/level, so it's great for shunting people back and forth and summoning tons of demons from the Abyss or something). *Though I had to nerf Planar Binding too, but that's outside the scope of this discussion. Hopefully your "D&D is broken" player hasn't figured out about Planar-Binding Efreet to grant him infinite Wishes yet... heh.
cyberia23 06-11-05, 06:49 PM	IIRC, any living creature that touches pure negative energy from the Negative Energy Plane is instantly killed, but at the same time turned into undead. An Anchent Red Dragon is a bit over 10HD the limit for a simple zombie. So I'd have the dragon become a Dracolich and come back via Planeshift. This time he hovers in place to ensure the Wizard doesn't try the Gate trick with the Positive Energy Plane. That would have been pretty hillarious if I thought of doing something like that. The dragon comes back by time travelling and now he's undead. My players would have **** their pants.
cyberia23 06-11-05, 06:56 PM	The player is a bratty munchkin and a jerk. His "great idea" is dumb. No, gate doesn't list a saving throw because it's not a spell made to affect a target. If the dragon suddenly notices a gaping maw beneath it then this is where wings come into play; dragons can fly, remember? I'd have the dragon take flight above the mage and make a crush attack. Squishy mage. I considered it a matter of initiative. The wizard got to go first, plus the dragon was in a low ceiling cavern. I could have had him take flight but it wasn;t really his turn yet.
cyberia23 06-11-05, 07:03 PM	Munch munch munch munch munch. 1. Dragons can fly. 2. Dragons are too big. 3. Gate can't be cast in matter. 4. Walking things would get a save (even a talisman of pure good allows a reflex save) for falling. 5. Things can survive in the negative energy plane. They just take 1d6 damage per round and make a DC 25 fortitude save to avoid level drain. With a +28 to fortitude saves, that's no problem. 6. You can't fall through something instantaneously. 7. If you find loopholes in the rules, they shouldn't be there. End of story. 8. People who horribly abuse the rules and then whine about not being able to should not be playing. End of story. I agree to #8 especially. What sucks is I have few friends who are willing to "geek out" and play D&D with me and this group tends to be lame at times. They're coll 90% of the time, but only get annoying if I ruin one of their well crafted plans with something that I pull out of my hat last minute.
ArtEChoke 06-11-05, 07:10 PM	Let them get away with it, just have the horde of treasure the thing was sitting on *also* fall through the gate. Then if there's anything "plot" specific they need, they have to go fishing for it in the negative material. Add to that the possiblity that there's a very angry undead dragon there waiting for them, and your game just got more interesting.