Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JemyM 02-23-04, 09:39 AM	Yesterday I encountered something I was not prepared for. I wanted to give the players a hint that really cool items was also very expensive. So I let the players find a marketseller that among other things carried a pair of Boots of Speed. He demanded 1500 platina for theese shoes (giving me room to go down to 1200), but instead the players started to discuss about charming the shop owner to get him to simply give away the boots for free. They are only level 7 now, so I dont want to give such items away with a simple low-level spell. I solved it anyway this time, but i fear that this behavior may be continued on general basis to 'steal' stuff. Is there any generic and acceptable tactic that I can use over and over again to prevent this abuse?
jasper 02-23-04, 09:44 AM	no. Getting something for free for an expensive item just for casting Charm x. Think of this way kid= mom could you bake me a cake. mom=no! Kid cast charm= mom could you bake me a cake. mom= sure you been a good boy lately Jr. against kid= mom would you buy me a hummer? mom= &**((( NO! go to your room. Kind cast charm = mom would you buy me a hummer? Mom= ^&*&*((. Oh well i will talk with dad when he comes home tonight. So with a charm person on I would go down as far as creation cost.
LordMazza 02-23-04, 09:50 AM	Keep in mind that in a word with lots of magic, shop keepers are going to have all sorts of counter measures. For example, markets might be patrolled by guards with googles which can See Invisibility, and a merchant might have an amulet which makes him immune to Charm or gives him an enhanced save against enchantment.
Bacon and Eggs 02-23-04, 09:50 AM	Originally posted by JemyM He demanded 1500 platina for theese shoes (giving me room to go down to 1200), but instead the players started to discuss about charming the shop owner to get him to simply give away the boots for free. Any shop owner that I know who haggles is not about to go below their own low price. Unless very desperate. Most of them would choke on their own tongues if they had to not make a profit. Which would be going strongly against their beliefs. Selling at a loss harms the shop keeper, and would they do something that would harm themself? In D&D, I would say that charm would get you the best price possible, but not for free. I don't know how the conversation played out. But that would prevent the abuse. Watto, Krusty Krab as some of the more iconic shop owners that I can think of. (Out of D&D, I would think that charm could be abused in such a way. So I don't see any issue with getting stuff for free due to magical enchantments)
olshanski_home 02-23-04, 10:01 AM	I thought charm makes you believe someone is your friend and treat their requests in the best possible light. Now, lets take an example: Scenario 1: You've invited some friends over, and one of them says "Hey, I notice you have some beer in your fridge, can I have one?" Since this person is your friend, and you treat thier requests in the best possible light, you say "But of course" Scenario 2: Later, this same friend says "Hey, I notice that you have a new DVD... can I have it". You are perlexed by this request, but you say, well... you certainly can't have it, but you could borrow it for a week. Scenario 3: This same friend says "You own an art gallery don't you? Could you give me one of those nice dutch paintings?" Since you are a business man, you know that you NEVER mix business with friendship and so you turn down the request... though you might be willing to sell one of the paintings with only a 5% commission instead of a 50% commission. Scenario 4: The same friend says "Is that a new car in your garage? Can I have it?". If this is a joke, you think it is kind of lame, if it is not a joke, then you know this person is not a friend (breaks the spell).
Halzmar_of_Geoff 02-23-04, 10:03 AM	I agree that in a magical world shop keepers would have some protection from abusive spells in the shop and perhaps on their person when not in the shop. Just like undercover store cops and survaillance cams are used nowdays - shrinkage is never a tolerable situation - even if they get by once at one shop you can bet the next time they visit safeguards will be in place.
Naeron 02-23-04, 10:25 AM	Charm Person would never gain you an expensive item for free, the spell causes the target to consider the caster to be a good firend or ally. So the shopkeeper, if charmed, would certainly give the caster a good price. However that price would be the lowest that they would sell the item at, probably down to the 1200 or maybe 1100. However the shopkeeper would know they had been charmed once it wore off and such activity is almost certainly against local laws which would get the caster into big trouble. Dominate Person would allow you to force the target to hand over the items (if they fail the additional save at +2 as it would be against their nature). But again once it wore off the shopkeeper would be certain to report the crime to the authorities. I would probably try and avoid future problems by having people who act as brokers for magic item sales take the troubel to invest in a Prot Evil item. A slotted item would be 4000gp but as a custom item that solely provided the protection against control and did not give the other bonuses it would be cheaper. As a quick guess I'd rate it as a 0th level spell equivalent so 2000gp. Expensive for anyone other than a professional fixer who can act as a broker for magic item sales but not an unreasonable investment.
Morka 02-23-04, 10:25 AM	Have your shop owner be a Red Wizard of Thay (if in FR) or something like this. PCs might be able to trick him once (with charm spell or whatever), but after this they'll have assassins after them!
Twisted Puppy 02-23-04, 10:27 AM	The spell that they need to use is Entice Gift from the BoVD. That, IIRC, is a second level spell, and thus fairly easy to resist unless it is, oh, say, Heightened to a 9th level spell :devil: To me, the Charm Person, if successful, would get the price down to, oh, say the cost of the item and maybe a 5% mark up for the shopowner - since he regards the PCs as friends now. (Regardless of whether they are good friends or not, he still has to cover expenses of operating the shop, and eat)
StormKnight 02-23-04, 10:34 AM	Has anyone here worked retail? Ok, when you were working retail, would you have given items from the store away for free to a good friend? No, you wouldn't? Ok. End of problem. Charm is just charm. And using a more dominate-oriented type spell might work, but it would be stealing just as if you had swiped it, and would bring about all the same repercussions.
JemyM 02-23-04, 10:50 AM	Until this goes any furher: Naturally you must include all mind-affecting spells into the discussion, not just charm.
JemyM 02-23-04, 10:57 AM	I realise that Charm is not as bad as I thought, but there are other, much more powerful spells that the players already have access to. I neither wish to force expensive protectionwear for all shopowners, nor do I wish to "punish" the characters, as that would take my entire story in a different direction. The lesser of two evils would be to use protectionwear, but what rings and stuff gives a decent immunity against most types of dominate spells?
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-23-04, 11:25 AM	Originally posted by Morka Have your shop owner be a Red Wizard of Thay (if in FR) or something like this. PCs might be able to trick him once (with charm spell or whatever), but after this they'll have assassins after them! I like to stay away from this tactic. It may seem very tempting to make the shopkeeper a powerful figure, but it soon becomes boring and unrealistic when every barkeep or shop owner is a wizard10/fighter10. Find other ways for the players to foil themselves. For example, just yesterday one of my players bought some illegal Terran Brandy (BoVD) from a barkeep. After realizing its potency (+2 caster level, -2 Con for 1/2 hour), he cast sleep on the barkeep and took a whole case of the stuff. I was sorely tempted to have the barkeep polymorph into something and lay a smackdown on them, but I resisted. Mainly because I knew what they had just gotten themselves into. They now had a case of >9,00gp worth of illegal contraband, and the mage seemed enthralled with the booze. He downed every flask, and literally drank himself to death within a couple minutes (-2 Con per flask, plus -1 per flask for overdose). Now they've run into extremely tasty plot twists with the local clergy. :D
Edymnion 02-23-04, 11:43 AM	No, Charm can't do this. Hypnotism can if you know how to work it though.
igronimus 02-23-04, 11:52 AM	I don't see why charm wouldn't allow you do this. All you'd have to do is tell the guy you need it badly to survive. Of course, remember to check the alignments of your characters. I doubt anyone but an evil character would do this. Finally, how many shops are sitting around selling that kind of stuff. I'd imagine very few, and I'm sure the ones that do are run by decently powered wizards who can deal with such things. It all comes down to the bottomline that most DMs forget. Any store that sells expensive stuff better be highly guarded, have numerous checks and balances (I.E. wouldn't one of the other employees question the storekeepers decision?), and be fairly rare.
Autosponge 02-23-04, 12:24 PM	1. Even charmed he's not going to sell below costs (something he wouldn't do even for his best friends). 2. Just casting charm at a merchant undermines the merchantile process and the city that hosts the merchant (and profits from the duties and taxes on his wares) has an obligation to arrest the offender and prosecute them. 3. The merchant is likely to have counter measures, a receipt book, and all sorts of other ways to foil the players. Let them try it, don't tell them what they're in for. Then when all the traps spring at once and they're totally screwed, ask them, "what did you think was going to happen?" This is one reason why adventurers find it so difficult to make level 10 on their own.
Automagical 02-23-04, 01:16 PM	Originally posted by igronimus I don't see why charm wouldn't allow you do this. All you'd have to do is tell the guy you need it badly to survive. And how would you back up that claim? Let's say you told your best friend, the newly charmed merchant, that you would die if you didn't get the boots of speed. I hardly believe that he wouldn't question you further, but simply hand them over.
olshanski_home 02-23-04, 02:07 PM	PC: If I don't get that new pink Chanel handbag I will simply DIE. Shopkeeper: Oh you poor thing. Lets do lunch. Note: The shopkeeper did not give the PC the handbag.
igronimus 02-23-04, 03:35 PM	Originally posted by Automagical And how would you back up that claim? Let's say you told your best friend, the newly charmed merchant, that you would die if you didn't get the boots of speed. I hardly believe that he wouldn't question you further, but simply hand them over. After you're charmed you're considered a friend and ally. I know the players in my party (who are friends and allies of each other) would gladly lend one another magic items (especially if they're not being used). So why wouldn't a charmed shop-keeper?
Jagyr Ebonwood 02-23-04, 03:43 PM	Originally posted by olshanski_home PC: If I don't get that new pink Chanel handbag I will simply DIE. Shopkeeper: Oh you poor thing. Lets do lunch. Note: The shopkeeper did not give the PC the handbag. :heehee Igronimus: lend is the key word there. I know if my best friend said "Can I borrow your PS2 for a few days?" I'd say sure. But if he said "can I have your PS2? Forever? And you'll probably never see me again?", I'd say no.
Automagical 02-23-04, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by igronimus After you're charmed you're considered a friend and ally. I know the players in my party (who are friends and allies of each other) would gladly lend one another magic items (especially if they're not being used). So why wouldn't a charmed shop-keeper? The shopkeeper trying to sell the boots of speed most likely need them to keep his livelihood. I think the shopkeeper has found a very good use for them by putting them on the market. And, besides, the PCs were expecting the shopkeeper to give them the item for free, not just lend it to them for half a minute..
adiaven 02-23-04, 04:07 PM	What about suggestion? Wizard casts suggestion " I would like to buy those wonderful winter boots for 10 gold good sir" <waves hand like a jedi> Shopkeeper: "Sure, 10 gold sounds fair for a pair of winter boots" <hands wizard boots of speed> Would you let this work as a DM? Of course the smart player would have used alter self to disguise himself before going in the shop....
LordHell 02-23-04, 04:35 PM	Set up a group of NPC powerful wizard's whos job it is to make sure unwarrented spells are not cast in the city. They could have some magical device that let's them know what and where spell has been cast, and they could teleport in and fine the PCs. You could add in a subplot here allowing the Wizards to be "bribed" if they are not good aligned, or make the fine something ridiculous like they have to fetch the Wizards some powerful magical item.
Automagical 02-23-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by adiaven What about suggestion? Wizard casts suggestion " I would like to buy those wonderful winter boots for 10 gold good sir" <waves hand like a jedi> Shopkeeper: "Sure, 10 gold sounds fair for a pair of winter boots" <hands wizard boots of speed> Would you let this work as a DM? Of course the smart player would have used alter self to disguise himself before going in the shop.... *Looks up spell description...* Yes, in fact I would allow that.. But 3 hours after the level 3 Bard leaves the store with the boots, that merchant is going to be quite :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: of at knowing he was swindled... But then again, since they were boots of speed, perhaps the PC is clever enough to get the hell out of there before the spell expires... No, wait, in fact the spell description says that the spell expires when the act has been carried out (selling the boots)... Does this mean that as soon as the boots are sold, the spell is over, and that he knows he's been tricked? This one's gotten me confused... Anyone want to help sort out my messy head?
Kaya Kenobi 02-23-04, 05:21 PM	Charm only helps if the PC is being reasonable.. If something's worth 1500, it's obviously very valuable to the merchant. And the merchant would see it as being very unreasonable to just give it away.. The spell breaks, and instantly the merchant screams for the guards and the PCs get hauled off to jail. End of story.
shaga 02-23-04, 09:07 PM	if you have items who cost more than 10000gp n your shop you should also have a protection from evil/good/law/..... in your shop all the time. no charm, no dominate clean simple AND cheap:cool:
king_of_evil007 02-23-04, 09:16 PM	Charm makes somebody your friend. Not your best friend, but a friend. If a friend walked into my house and asked to have my 52 inch plasma TV and your turbocharged porsche (I sadly don't have these things, but they're good examples ;) ) I'd laugh at him, give him a glass of water while I "go get the keys", then discreetly call the guys with straitjackets. If a merchant can afford to have items like Boots of Speed, he can afford a Mage (Wizard or Sorceror) to stand around, Detect Magic, and cast Protection From [Alignment] everytime somebody radiating magic comes in, or everytime a spell is cast nearby. A merchant like that can afford many magical defenses against your intrepid PCs. Including Alarm spells.
Ack'noth Necrom 02-23-04, 09:18 PM	Remember that when a person is affected by a charm spell that they think of the caster as their "Best friend". Now heres the question. Would you let your best friend borrow $1,000 with no intention of paying you back? My answer is :censored: NO! Now if your friend said " I need to borrow $1,000 to fix my car and ill pay you back", that would be more acceptable. Ild even go so far as to say that the merchant might give the item away at whatever cost it was to make or that he/she bought it for, provided that the PC owes them an unamed favor. But under no circumstances would a PC get it for free.
primemover003 02-23-04, 09:29 PM	And any magic item shoppe worth it's sign board would at the minimum have some sort of Warding spells in place. A simple Cantrip that makes anyone who uses a device, spell, or spell-like ability in the Enchantment school to glow would be appropriate. The Shoppe keeper would think the person a friend but the city watch would know something was fishy. neither wish to force expensive protectionwear for all shopowners, nor do I wish to "punish" the characters, as that would take my entire story in a different direction. Always keep in mind that your players may end up on the wrong side of the law or just tick off a really powerful being who is not a direct enemy. Yes it complicates a campaign's plotline, but it can be the source of many sessions of fun (or tension). You have to keep the world a viable place where there are consequences for PC actions. If you don't PC's become bullies who think they are above the law.
angry_keebler 02-23-04, 09:33 PM	Your PCs are dumb. You shouldn't let them have it for free, because they aren't using the spell correctly. No one in their right mind, as stated earlier, would give away precious items, even to trusted friends. However, if they charmed him and told him someone was giving away free Plat outside, on the other side of town, and that they would watch his shop for them, they deserve to get his stuff.
Kaya Kenobi 02-23-04, 09:44 PM	Originally posted by shaga if you have items who cost more than 10000gp n your shop you should also have a protection from evil/good/law/..... in your shop all the time. no charm, no dominate clean simple AND cheap:cool: That phrase reminded me of the only bright spot of SW E:1.. No credits, no deal! You think you're some jedi waving your hands around?
Nom 02-23-04, 10:36 PM	In general, magic item traders will not be pawnbrokers. Even cheap items are significantly more expensive than a house; just the enchantment on a suit of +1 armour is worth more than a suit of masterwork half-plate. "Nationwide Luxury Cars" usually has better security than "Joe's Jalopies". Most people regularly trading in magic will be the artisans who make them. So, since a "Boots of Speed" is typically CL 10, your trader is likely to have at least 10 levels in wizard (or equivalent), not to mention a couple in Expert. Now, repeat the idea: "We'll just walk up and charm a 10th level wizard, who's probably well aware of the possibility of just such a tactic". Does it still sound like a good idea? What happens when "spell turning" kicks in? And remember that they - in all likelihood - won't have the item there on display; they'll receive a commission and you come back when it's done. A rich an enterprising commoner might decide to trade a few magic items, but they also will be aware of the risks, and will invariably hire some muscle (preferably magical muscle) to defend them. Otherwise, buyers and sellers are likely to be powerful individuals who happen to have the item in question to exchange for a similar item. Players need to realise that anyone who can afford to trade in magic is not a Com2 fruit vendor, but a mover and shaker in their own right.
Yruc 02-24-04, 04:39 AM	Originally posted by JemyM ......He demanded 1500 platina for theese shoes (giving me room to go down to 1200), but instead the players started to discuss about charming the shop owner to get him to simply give away the boots for free. If my players talked about charming the store keeper in front of him, I'd have the shop keeper kick them out on the spot and call the guard :D
JemyM 02-24-04, 05:37 AM	Originally posted by Yruc If my players talked about charming the store keeper in front of him, I'd have the shop keeper kick them out on the spot and call the guard :D Well, I simply reminded the players that they actually watched a hanging of two mages that tried the same stunt just one day earlier (true). This is Athkatla we are talking about, where magic is simply feared/hated by almost everyone.