Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bonelock 02-18-05, 09:27 PM	I am a neophyte DM and have a character that is making frequent use of psionic charm to get good deals from merchants and NPC's. Thus far he has not used it to the point of abuse: he bought a magic item at fair market price for an otherwise hostile merchant. However, he is an psion with lots of points, manifesting the ability is not same as spell so no somatic component to tip off victims, and a "victim" that saves is not aware that someone has tried to dupe him. I am concerned that this will lead to abuse. Any suggestions? I don't want to give every merchant a necklace vs. mind-effecting spells.
olshanski_home 02-18-05, 09:36 PM	Personally, I am wondering why a new DM uses psionics: Nevertheless: A: Just beacuse there is no somatic components does not mean that you are unaware of a spell. Any time a character makes a saving throw for any reason, they get some inkling of what is going on... an uneasy feeling or something. Using psionics is a standard action like a spell, it requires concentration and is obvious that you are doing "something" (Unless it is the equivalent of stilled, quickened, and silent). B: After a charm wears off, the recipient knows they have been charmed and is will be upset if they were taken advantage of or used. C: Most D&D cities will have laws that prohibit things like charms, domination, etc. The character is certainly violating several laws. D: Many merchants will have powerful "friends"... possibly council members, possibly a protection racket. Members of a protection racket will not take kindly to someone encroaching in their territory, and will get revenge. E: Charm makes you behave as you would toward a close friend. Most businessmen understand the distinction between business and friends. They would go broke if they gave away goods to their friends, or heavily discounted them. A merchant might hold a particular item for a friend, or even offer credit if the customer is a regular for several months or years... but they do not give away merchandise or heavily mark-down merchandice for friends. I hope those suggestions help.
cymbolik 02-18-05, 09:43 PM	A: Just beacuse there is no somatic components does not mean that you are unaware of a spell. Any time a character makes a saving throw for any reason, they get some inkling of what is going on... an uneasy feeling or something. from what i understood, this kind of sense would only happen if the target succeeded on their saving throw...otherwise the effects of the spell override this sense...as you said, though, once the effect wears off, they are completely aware that they were victim to some form of power.
BW0222 02-18-05, 09:43 PM	First, the charm makes one equivalent to your best friend. It doesn't make you stupid. If your best friend is selling a $2000 car, that doesn't mean he is going to give you that much of a break just because you are his friend. Maybe a few hundred bucks off. Second, it wears off and doesn't affect your memory. Most folks understand magic. If you realize that you just sold your $2000 car to a stranger who you were just arguing with for $500, you are definitely going to be thinking. If you know that charm-type magic exists, you can put 2 and 2 together. At best, next time you come by four family members or guards will be watching. At worst, he'll show up at your inn with the local guards. Even the rumor that you are charming merchants and you won't be able to buy a thing in that town again.
Zariell 02-18-05, 09:50 PM	Start dropping his alignment to Chaotic and evil. Sooner or later he'll end up on the wrong side of the law. Its not that difficult for a merchant to later relize "Wait a minute, that person never paid for what I gave him...come to think of it, I never remember willfully giving him that at all" If hes leaving a trail of bodies behind, it shouldn't be difficult for a capable town guard to eventually find, and capture him. (Which in most cases would be punishable by death).
Taeldrin Laesrash 02-18-05, 09:57 PM	Complete Arcane had some tips. But since this is not concerning a villain, it's not as useful. But I can just restate what others said. The poeple will know if they've been charmed, and, if your character keeps doing it, the law, or some powerful friend of the merchants will lay the smack down on him.
Nukacola 02-18-05, 10:45 PM	According to the expanded Diplomacy description from Complete Adventurer, merchants only lower their prices by 10% for someone with whom they have an attitude of Helpful. Charm only makes their attitude friendly. I'd give him MAYBE 5% discount.
Board_Rider 02-19-05, 12:16 AM	Yeah I agree, just give a small drop in price. Let him abuse it. And kill him. Rough...but keeps things in check.
Callista 02-19-05, 12:20 AM	Oh, c'mon, CE for something that amounts to stealing? He's certainly not acting Lawful, though. Move it to Chaotic (or the player might do this himself, depending). re. Charm... Yep, it's probably illegal. Have the town guard after him if he overuses it. Doesn't seem like he's doing so now, though; getting a good deal from a hostile merchant seems like a fine (if Chaotic) use of the spell. So just tell him his character knows using Charm on random strangers is illegal; and that these people do understand that something out of the ordinary happened to them after it wears off, so he had better watch out and hopefully not be caught. Don't overreact. Yet. Good luck!
Zariell 02-19-05, 01:14 AM	Oh, c'mon, CE for something that amounts to stealing? He's certainly not acting Lawful, though. Move it to Chaotic (or the player might do this himself, depending). re. Charm... Yep, it's probably illegal. Have the town guard after him if he overuses it. Doesn't seem like he's doing so now, though; getting a good deal from a hostile merchant seems like a fine (if Chaotic) use of the spell. So just tell him his character knows using Charm on random strangers is illegal; and that these people do understand that something out of the ordinary happened to them after it wears off, so he had better watch out and hopefully not be caught. Don't overreact. Yet. Good luck! Stealings a chaotic act. Abusing this to the point where your charming others for nothing more than your own benefit is an evil act. I can't think of a case where unwillfully becomming someones minon is anything other than evil - im aware thats not quite what charm does, but there are spells that do this. I'd personally let it slide a couple times before he tips over into chatoic, and then slowly ends dropping down the scales twords evil. I never suggested to instantly change him to CE - sorry if it came out that way.
Draco_Whitewind 02-19-05, 01:31 AM	As long as he doesn't try to get things for less than market price, or too much below it, or use suggestion and charm blatently, it's okay. Charm person is designed by nature to be a replacement to diplomacy skills and whatnot. it offers a save instead of check, and if those NPCs had good items, they'd buy or make a cheap magic/psionic to negate those anyhow if they were that bright. just because the PC doesn't want to get jacked due to ideals that they should cost more, isn't bad at all. ~Draco
Ut-Napishtim 02-19-05, 03:09 AM	If hes leaving a trail of bodies behind, it shouldn't be difficult for a capable town guard to eventually find, and capture him. (Which in most cases would be punishable by death). Punishable by death? Holy crap man, I'm glad I don't play in your game. "And for your crime of using Charm Person to get a 5 gp discount on a horse, the lord sentences you to be hung by your neck until dead." I would've thought something along the lines of a fine or reparations would be in order. Dang. Stealings a chaotic act. Abusing this to the point where your charming others for nothing more than your own benefit is an evil act. I can't think of a case where unwillfully becomming someones minon is anything other than evil - im aware thats not quite what charm does, but there are spells that do this. OMFG, you guys need to put the cap back on the model glue and lighten up a bit. "Yes, you used Charm Person to get a fair price on an item from an otherwise hostile merchant, now you must change your alignment to CE you blackhearted scoundrel." What a bunch of bunk. I'm going to start turning folks evil that use Diplomacy to get decent prices too then, after all - they're using their own personal charms and wiles to "steal" from someone else.
Aricandor 02-19-05, 03:50 AM	Well. Psionics have their own displays. Make sure you pay attention to them. While I would not consider it evil to use a power this way, it's certainly not good either. I'd say it's mildly chaotic as well, and probably illegal too. I'd not punish him by death though. Just a few days in the anti-magic/psionic cell.
ShadowDragon8685 02-19-05, 04:50 AM	I don't think this is bad at all. This is what the Charms were made for, after all. Just remember that it won't always work - not every merchant will have a poor Will save - and that overabuse is bad. Using it once or twice to get something you HAVE to have at a nice discount is okay. Using it to coerce a fair market value out of a jerkwad is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. At least, in the eyes of the DM. The Law might see things differently, but this is no reason to hammer him. Would you be mad at the Rogue for using a combination of Appraise, Bluff and Diplomacy to convince the merchant that the Nystul's Magic Aura'd Dagger that appears to be super-strong Evocation and is in fact just ordinary, not even MW, is worth a real holy heck of a lot of money, but offering to trade straight across for that magical sword that the Rogue can downplay the price of, because it looks just like the one his daddy used to have and he HAS to have it?
preacher of nothing 02-19-05, 04:53 AM	Start dropping his alignment to Chaotic and evil. Sooner or later he'll end up on the wrong side of the law. Its not that difficult for a merchant to later relize "Wait a minute, that person never paid for what I gave him...come to think of it, I never remember willfully giving him that at all" If hes leaving a trail of bodies behind, it shouldn't be difficult for a capable town guard to eventually find, and capture him. (Which in most cases would be punishable by death). I COMPLETELY AND FULLY AGREE!!!! I also think that there should be a prerequisite to rogues. ALL ROGUES ARE OBVIOUSLY CHAOTIC and most are EEEEEEEEVIL!!!!!!!!!! [/sarcasm] Sorry mon ami, but i think you're having a little trouble making the distinction between real life and DnD. It's absolutely ludicrous to force such an alignment change. He's not being evil, he's being crafty. And he's not being chaotic, he's doing something calculated, well planned, etc. Ignoring the laws of the place you're in doesn't instantly make you chaotic, neither does it make you slowly turn to chaotic. ~preacher~
Rikvich 02-19-05, 05:17 AM	btw, i've heard of merchants securing themselves against magic... if i had a pc using charm so constantly, i'd not change his alignment. he'd just sooner or later meet someone who's stronger and who realizes whats being done to him. i think solving such kinda problems in a roleplaying way is much more fun (and much more effective) than using the rules to make the char do what the DM wants. just think f.ex. of the merchant guild hearing about someone whos walking around charming merchants... ooh, i dont wanna be this PC...
preacher of nothing 02-19-05, 05:27 AM	btw, i've heard of merchants securing themselves against magic... if i had a pc using charm so constantly, i'd not change his alignment. he'd just sooner or later meet someone who's stronger and who realizes whats being done to him. i think solving such kinda problems in a roleplaying way is much more fun (and much more effective) than using the rules to make the char do what the DM wants. just think f.ex. of the merchant guild hearing about someone whos walking around charming merchants... ooh, i dont wanna be this PC... Exactly. Let the player do what he wants to do for a while. If you notice he's beginning to take abuse of this, then you can start implementing smackdown procedures. Such as charm protections, the aforementioned "friends" in high places, etc. etc. ~preacher~
bonelock 02-19-05, 07:48 AM	Thanks for the feedback all. I didn't realize that if a target passes their save for charm (psionic or otherwise) they are aware that someone just "tried something funny". Couple points of clairification. Do I feel the PC abused the use of charm to pay market price from a merchant with a unfriendly attitude, no. I think this was an effective, non-violent way to get what he wanted. If he tried to get the item for free or get a blatant discount that would be abuse. Like I said I am just trying to nip the possibility of abusing this spell in the bud. For example, after the encounter with the merchant the same PC cast charm on a NPC who is providing a key service for the PC's. In this case the NPC had already agreed to the service and a price had been set; the psionic PC, bollstered by his success in the market place, was just showing off. The NPC made his save so the PC's are going to get hosed when he suddenly wants to renegotiate the price or refuses to provide the service. This will teach the PC not to over use this spell. The PC in question is CN, by the way. Interesting: is the use of charm necessarily an inherrently evil act? Is diplomacy for that matter? I think not. Both influence a NPC's reaction to you. A NPC might think back to his actions when you modified his reaction towards you, slap the proverbial forhead and say what the heck was I thinking?! That sweet talker! Bonelock
Nom 02-19-05, 08:14 AM	Thanks for the feedback all. I didn't realize that if a target passes their save for charm (psionic or otherwise) they are aware that someone just "tried something funny".PH pg 177, "Succeeding on a saving throw". See also pg 82, "Spellcraft", for rules on identifying a spell after a successful saving throw. That said, the DC is pretty high: 25 + level. If you can see the components, it's a lot easier (15 + level).
FriendoftheDork 02-19-05, 12:47 PM	Thanks for the feedback all. I didn't realize that if a target passes their save for charm (psionic or otherwise) they are aware that someone just "tried something funny". Couple points of clairification. Do I feel the PC abused the use of charm to pay market price from a merchant with a unfriendly attitude, no. I think this was an effective, non-violent way to get what he wanted. If he tried to get the item for free or get a blatant discount that would be abuse. Like I said I am just trying to nip the possibility of abusing this spell in the bud. For example, after the encounter with the merchant the same PC cast charm on a NPC who is providing a key service for the PC's. In this case the NPC had already agreed to the service and a price had been set; the psionic PC, bollstered by his success in the market place, was just showing off. The NPC made his save so the PC's are going to get hosed when he suddenly wants to renegotiate the price or refuses to provide the service. This will teach the PC not to over use this spell. The PC in question is CN, by the way. Interesting: is the use of charm necessarily an inherrently evil act? Is diplomacy for that matter? I think not. Both influence a NPC's reaction to you. A NPC might think back to his actions when you modified his reaction towards you, slap the proverbial forhead and say what the heck was I thinking?! That sweet talker! Bonelock Seems like you managed to filter away the rubbish in this thread and got to the important part. Some DMs have phobias against enchantment and similar, one DM I had claimed that anyone who used mind affecting enchantment spell were evil, regardless! I like to think that I'd rather be charmed than chopped on with an axe or fireballed :) Charm has it's limits, but it's more than making someone "friendly" on some table. Charm makes the target your close friend, and everything you say will be percived as favorable as possible. In addition, the target will believe almost anything you say. This means the target isn't completely rational, so those around him might suspect something with a dc 25 sense motive check. A merchant would give his bets friend the best price he could, which means you cut through alot of bargianing and get a good price. Getting the merchant to give away stuff freely would require a charisma check and some hefty roleplaying. Saying "i want that armor" won't do any good, but coming up with a story that you've been framed and need cash to get away and prove your innocence might work. The target will not forget anything that happened, but will not automatically know he has been charmed, only that he liked that guy alot. Still, a greedy merchant might think "damn, I gave that guy too good a price!" Bottom line is, charm is a spell meant to abuse people/monsters. That doesen't make it something you have to nerf. If the target suceeds his save, he feels sorta funny, a small tingling inside his head. He might suspect something, or just think he's been working too long. In nay case, he doesen't know WHO did anything, so if someone comes in half hour later, why should the Merchant suspect the Telepath?
Saiph 02-19-05, 02:38 PM	well, my first thing is a pet peeve: Chaotic does not mean unplanned, random behavior. That's insane, or stupid, which aren't alignment choices. Chatoic means a person values individualism, personal freedom, self-sufficiency, and is agianst strong authority figures. A person swindling an established merchant is acting chaotic, as they are in one sense or another undermining the merchants authority. Now, haggling is very, very mildly chaotic, but's its really very prudent and since it's an established part of behavior in the society, one could argue it's just as lawful. Indeed, you'd probably seem odd if you didn't try to haggle. Charming a person, or conning them, is chaotic behavior. While the behavior certainly isn't "good" I don't think it's evil enough to matter. That aside: Wealthy merchants in the world of D&D will have protections against such actions. Just like they put very good locks on their safes, and hide them too, they will protect their minds to keep that from being used. They will most likely have a trusted associate sit with them on all major transactions. These associates will insist on doing so even with someone the merchant says is a "best friend" if the associate doesn't recognize them as such (i.e. they've never seen the merchant even near the PC). If they deal in magic items, they likely have a very cheap item that wards them specifically against charm spells (cheapest if it is only charm spells). It may even glow a bright color if it's activated. Now, poor & unexperienced merchants (or those who trade something unimportant like pottery) will have fewer safeguards. The people will remember their actions, and with confusion later. Enough people get together and talk about it, and they'll figure it out. The merchant would probably have a hard time putting his finger on what exactly the PC did to sway his opinion. He won't understand his actions later, but they made sense at the time. He's likely to just be confused, until he hears a fellow merchant complain about the same thing. By the third incident, the merchants are all talking to (or bribing) the constabulary to deal with the PC. The more the PC benefits from the exchange, the angier and more drastic measures the merchants will take (or be willing to pay for). If they complain that the PC got a fair price on the goods, the constabulary probably won't do anything (unless bribed, meaning they're corrupt). IF the merchants got hosed, the constabulary will definetly do something (but if corrupt, probably still ask for money :) ). Of course, the more hosed the merchant, the more he's willing to pay, and teh better a job the constabulary does.
aaron3579 02-19-05, 03:03 PM	"And for your crime of using Charm Person to get a 5 gp discount on a horse, the lord sentences you to be hung by your neck until dead." I know that everyone here is going to call me a troll, but I don't care. Must..... correct...... grammar! [Super-ego looses internal battle with ego] Hung, as a proper noun, is an Asian last name. As an adjective it is used to describe a 'well-endowed' man. Hanged is the word that belongs here. HANGED. You are sentenced to death by hanging. You will be hanged at dawn. He was hanged. The hanged man swings in the morning breeze (inserting the former, incorrect participle here means something else entirely). I know that all of my posts may not be 100% grammatically correct, but at least I'm not inadvertently giving out anatomic information. arg. And I'm not picking on you; this forum runs rampant with this very same error, and I'm tired of it. :mad: But then, I have some very strange peeves...
Aliquid 02-19-05, 06:29 PM	I know that everyone here is going to call me a troll, but I don't care. Must..... correct...... grammar! [Super-ego looses internal battle with ego] Hung, as a proper noun, is an Asian last name. As an adjective it is used to describe a 'well-endowed' man. Hanged is the word that belongs here. HANGED. You are sentenced to death by hanging. You will be hanged at dawn. He was hanged. The hanged man swings in the morning breeze (inserting the former, incorrect participle here means something else entirely)Don't worry Aaron, we know you aren't a troll :) I disagree with your hung statement though.... I suppose it depends on which dictionary you use... but according to Merriam-Webster: For both transitive and intransitive senses 1b the past and past participle hung, as well as hanged, is standard. Hanged is most appropriate for official executions <he was to be hanged, cut down whilst still alive ... and his bowels torn out -- Louis Allen> but hung is also used <gave orders that she should be hung -- Peter Quennell>. Hung is more appropriate for less formal hangings <by morning I'll be hung in effigy -- Ronald Reagan>.
Aliquid 02-19-05, 06:38 PM	Like I said I am just trying to nip the possibility of abusing this spell in the bud.One possible option... if it would fit into the plot. You could have someone hire the PCs to hunt down a "Charmer" who abuses a very high DC charm ability. The villain in question is notorious around the kingdom for going from town to town, charming people and taking advantage of them in various manners. The PCs are hired to catch this guy, because the regular authorities can’t catch him… whenever they try, he talks his way out of the situation :) This might accomplish two things…. One, it would allow the PCs to find out how annoying it is when someone constantly casts ‘domination’ and such on them…. second, they will find out that big time charmers get hunted down.
BW0222 02-19-05, 07:36 PM	Stealings a chaotic act. Sorry, stealing is an evil act. A thief -- someone who steals for profit -- is working towards evil. First, you can be a lawful thief. A mob boss for example. You organize your extortion, robberies, and hold-ups. That is lawful evil. Second, you can't be a chaotic good thief. Elves don't steal form each other because it's wrong -- not because it is against the rules. Seeing some merchant go home having worked for weeks only to loose money isn't a chaotic good act, it's a (something) evil act. If you steal because your family is starving, you can justify a neutral alignment. If you steal a key from a crime lord to free some slaves, ok, you can call it good. If you steal for solely for your own benefit, that's evil.
ShadowDragon8685 02-19-05, 07:49 PM	Stealing for your own benefit is Chaotic Neutral. Stealing in such a way as that it detriments the livlihoods of others is Evil.
aaron3579 02-19-05, 07:56 PM	Sorry, stealing is an evil act. A thief -- someone who steals for profit -- is working towards evil. I'll second this, and here is why: Crime can be classified into two categories: mala in se Main Entry: mal·um in se Pronunciation: 'ma-l&m-in-'sE, 'mä-lum-in-'sA Function: noun Inflected Form: plural mala in se /'ma-l&-, 'mä-/ Etymology: New Latin, offense in itself : an offense that is evil or wrong from its own nature irrespective of statute —often used with a preceding noun (as crime or act) <held that burglary was a crime malum in se —State v. Stiffler, 788 Pacific Reporter, Second Series 2205 (1990)> —compare MALUM PROHIBITUM Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc. (such as murder and robbery) and mala prohibita Main Entry: malum pro·hib·i·tum Pronunciation: -prO-'hi-b&-t&m Function: noun Inflected Form: plural mala pro·hib·i·ta /-'hi-b&-t&/ Etymology: New Latin, prohibited offense : an offense prohibited by statute but not inherently evil or wrong <is malum prohibitum and, therefore, does not demand mens rea —Commonwealth v. Guthrie, 616 Atlantic Reporter, Second Series 1019 (1992)> —often used with a preceding noun (as crime or act) <acts malum prohibitum> —compare MALUM IN SE Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc. An example would be most traffic offenses, or anything else that is illegal because "the government says so." I disagree with your hung statement though.... I suppose it depends on which dictionary you use... but according to Merriam-Webster... Now that is the mark of an influential president; he makes a grammatical error, and the English Language realigns itself to accommodate him.:D Thanks, though; I like to think of all my statements as 'hung.'
FriendoftheDork 02-20-05, 01:03 PM	LOL what's exacly constitutes an "informal" hanging? Right now I'm thinking in the lines of the "Stoning" in Life of Brian :) Stealing is no more evil than killing, in itself. Stealing the livelyhood of honest merhants is evil, just like killing them would be. Stealing from an evil organization bent on world destruciton is not evil, and could even be good. Still, stealing is dishonest and therfore could be an chaotic act. Honest people loot stuff from people after they have killed them ;). I also think of robbery as more lawful than stealing as the target is aware of what you're doing and "voulentarily" giving up his property in exchange for his life. The most lawful way of taking others property is confiscation and taxation :)
Aliquid 02-20-05, 01:42 PM	Now that is the mark of an influential president; he makes a grammatical error, and the English Language realigns itself to accommodate him.:DActually it is surprising how often grammar and spelling change due to some influential person making a mistake. A car 'tire' was originally spelled 'tyre' (and still is in the UK). Back when car tires were a new industry, someone misspelled it as 'tire' for a patent in the US… and it stuck. (I can’t remember the exact details) Or how about 'dwarves'. Tolkien actually admitted that he accidentally misspelled it in The Hobbit (should be dwarfs), and he was surprised that none of the editors caught it… he further went to say that the more historically and linguistically correct plural would be dwarrow (an odd plural like teeth to tooth). Of course everyone spells it dwarves now, because that’s the way Tolkien spelled it :)
Draco_Whitewind 02-20-05, 01:46 PM	okay, for whatever people are stating, you people need to read the core rules, especially psionics and charm. unless there is cause to believe things are different, a psion who manifests 1:charm person doesn't give off much if they succeed or fail. if they fail, the person gets a little weird feeling, and MAY get suspicious given they are smart enough. 2: Charm person when it suceeds, means the person is charmed, and cannot detect they have been charmed, nor without extrodinary means recognize it even after. even events that go on after it that may spark interests come up in their minds as something absolutely normal, even giving an unusually good deal. it's like a mental slip that they don't question. charm, when used right, passively, like this is difficult to counter in advance, given it's psionic. unless it's psionic heavy world, and you play psionics are different rule, protections work, but detect magic and such sources wouldn't even blink when this was used. ~Draco
Reinforcements 02-20-05, 02:53 PM	Sorry, stealing is an evil act. A thief -- someone who steals for profit -- is working towards evil. First, you can be a lawful thief. A mob boss for example. You organize your extortion, robberies, and hold-ups. That is lawful evil. Second, you can't be a chaotic good thief. Elves don't steal form each other because it's wrong -- not because it is against the rules. Seeing some merchant go home having worked for weeks only to loose money isn't a chaotic good act, it's a (something) evil act. If you steal because your family is starving, you can justify a neutral alignment. If you steal a key from a crime lord to free some slaves, ok, you can call it good. If you steal for solely for your own benefit, that's evil. I don't really know what to say to that, except that I disagree with you. Stealing is chaotic. Using charm to steal is... still chaotic (although I would say that we've found pretty conclusively that you can't actually get that much out of a charmed merchant).
aaron3579 02-20-05, 03:17 PM	I don't really know what to say to that, except that I disagree with you. Stealing is chaotic. Using charm to steal is... still chaotic (although I would say that we've found pretty conclusively that you can't actually get that much out of a charmed merchant). We are talking about two different things here. Stealing, on its own, is evil (see my earlier post). Stealing can be chaotic, depending on your point of view, but inherently, it is neither chaotic nor lawful. So why is it inherently evil? Let’s develop a Ph test, and do this scientifically. To do this, everything must be 'zeroed.' When we are talking about alignment, we will let zero = TN. So a TN fighter comes upon a TN bag of silver lying in the TN road. He picks it up and puts it in his TN pocket without knowing to whom the TN silver belongs (w/ the intention of keeping it). This is evil. The fact that he has a sick mother that needs an operation does not change this fact. [notice that I said TN road, implying that there is no lawful jurisdiction here] Stealing can be good: The TN fighter comes upon a band of sleeping CE goblins. He has been tailing them for a week because they have an artifact capable of blowing up the planet. He steals the artifact, which is an inherently evil action, but due to the circumstances, would not be considered as such, unless he planned to do something evil with the artifact. And stealing can be chaotic, and just about anything else. But all by itself, it is evil. I suppose that, depending on your definition of 'law,' you could argue that stealing is also inherently chaotic...
Draco_Whitewind 02-20-05, 03:41 PM	people, read his posts. the guy has not stolen anything, he's charmed to get a better deal. what he is worried about is it getting out of hand if he realizes he can do so much more. Remember, charm person makes them friendly, not beyond more than what you'd do for a friend. Suggestion pushes a person, he could get an incredible deal from such a method, however that is much more risky. Stop acting like no magical item trading society is flawless, utterlly impossible to rob, steal or cleverly decieve without retribution, but just don't make it easy. Any DM who has to cheat in this sense should perhaps be balancing things in other ways other than this, if this is the biggest issue. just watch, and don't be a frigging alignment nazi, and issue death threats when thievery like this is standard NPC work in D&D. ~Draco
Planar Wanderer 02-20-05, 03:42 PM	Well taking the 3.5 PHB, the example given for Chaotic good is "a ranger who waylays the evil baron's tax collectors" now maybe I'm reading this wrong but to me that screams Robin Hood, robbing from the rich to give to the poor and all that, which implies that stealing itself is chaotic rather than evil or the ranger would end up as CN edging towards CG assuming his motives were to help others.
ff6shadow 02-20-05, 04:26 PM	WHile the PC is definetely edging towards Chaotic, as long as he isn't going beyond getting about fair market price, I'd leave him alone. Any farther than that, though, its probably time to sic some law enforcment on him for cheating merchants.
bonelock 02-20-05, 05:48 PM	people, read his posts. the guy has not stolen anything, he's charmed to get a better deal. ~Draco Heh. It wasn't even a better deal. He paid 4,000 gp for a item that is listed as... 4,000 gp in the DMG! The merchant had a unfriendly attitude so wouldn't have sold the item to the PC at all or would have sold it at a x2 or even x3 mark up.
Noon 02-20-05, 06:20 PM	I am a neophyte DM and have a character that is making frequent use of psionic charm to get good deals from merchants and NPC's. Thus far he has not used it to the point of abuse: he bought a magic item at fair market price for an otherwise hostile merchant. However, he is an psion with lots of points, manifesting the ability is not same as spell so no somatic component to tip off victims, and a "victim" that saves is not aware that someone has tried to dupe him. I am concerned that this will lead to abuse. Any suggestions? I don't want to give every merchant a necklace vs. mind-effecting spells. Tell your player he's using the power smartly now, and as part of playing the game you'd appreciate if he doesn't use it to any extreme effect since it may disrupt things. Really, your allowed to talk to your players! True! It's far more powerful a way of changing the game than any number of add on rules or items.
FriendoftheDork 02-20-05, 06:39 PM	Heh. It wasn't even a better deal. He paid 4,000 gp for a item that is listed as... 4,000 gp in the DMG! The merchant had a unfriendly attitude so wouldn't have sold the item to the PC at all or would have sold it at a x2 or even x3 mark up. That seems like a good use of the spell... that even a good PC should not feel ashamed about. I had a similar situation, but used Alter Self and Tongues so that the merchant should not be unfriendly (basically a very racist place). I wouldn't be too concerned about the player or Charms.
cynical 02-21-05, 07:48 PM	Alignment issues frustrate me to NO end. How the heck iy theivery either a chaotic or and evil act. Just Think of what the words actully mean. Choatic Is disorderly chotic is not tied to crimes or anything like that. Someone make make a decision by there feelings is choatic. some who has a messy bedrrom is choatic. Some who code of ethic is time to their heart instead of there head is choatic. Somone who is unpredictable is choatic. Some who is irational is choatic. ect ect. For thievery to be a choatic act it would have to be a spur of the momant decision, or a clepto type thing. Someone who steals by making cold calculating plans is stealing in a LAWFUL bent lawful has nothing to do with obeying laws other then the fact most lawfull people perfer a rigid social stucture and like the order it brings. Evil vs good is even more simple. For the self only (selfish) = evil For others only (selfless) = good Most pepole are a mix leaning one way or another. no one act is inherantly anything Some acts however have strong tendancies to lean one direction or another. If you is using charm on a regular basis sole for his own best insterest turn him evil. If he uses it occasionly to aviod geting completly ripped off its not an issue.
Reinforcements 02-21-05, 07:51 PM	We are talking about two different things here. No, we're not, I just disagree with you. I say that the act of stealing, of taking that which does not belong to you, is chaotic, not evil.
aaron3579 02-21-05, 07:57 PM	No, we're not, I just disagree with you. I say that the act of stealing, of taking that which does not belong to you, is chaotic, not evil. Taking what doesn't belong to you = putting your well-being ahead of the other guy, looking out for #1 = evil.
The Wasp 02-21-05, 09:12 PM	Stealing is generally chaotic AND evil, pretty much by definition. How is it chaotic? Well, most societies (even non capitalist ones) have a thing called property rights, and these property rights are generally an important part of society - without them the economy would collapse, and people wouldn't have security that they . Stealing, therefore invites anarchy and is against the social order - therefore chaotic. There's no reason a chaotic person can't make good plans, have personal discipline after all - chaotic does not equal stupid. There are, of course, exceptions: if you steal in such a way that you are enhancing social stability - say, by granting real security in return (protection money), in the absence of an official police force. taxation could also be considered a form of lawful stealing. How is it evil? Stealing means taking something from somebody else, i.e. benefitting yourself at their expense. By definition, this is evil. However, there may be cases where you are in fact harming yr victim very little - which might drive the act closer to neutral. Again, there might be exceptions - if you are "stealing" something that doesn't rightfully belong to its current owner, then you are really enacting justice, which is good. Chart of theft: CG "theft": sneak into evil baron's house to loot all the stuff he looted from the peasantry - doesn't need to be exactly the same stuff, either. LG "theft": confiscate someone's stolen property/contraband in the name of the law. CN theft: stealing a load of bread from a rich merchant because you're very hungry. LN theft: fair taxation, or overzealous confiscation CE theft: sneaking into a merchant's warehouse and taking something just because you want it. LE theft: oppressive or unagreed to taxation, protection fees.
Reinforcements 02-21-05, 10:47 PM	Listen, aaron, Wasp, there's no point in trying to argue with me on this. It's a question of morality, and one on which we must agree to disagree. I do not think stealing is evil, and you cannot convince me otherwise.
aaron3579 02-21-05, 11:04 PM	Listen, aaron, Wasp, there's no point in trying to argue with me on this. It's a question of morality, and one on which we must agree to disagree. I do not think stealing is evil, and you cannot convince me otherwise. I respect your opinion, and I won't try to change your mind.