AC modifiers for helpless, prone e.t.c. [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC modifiers for helpless, prone e.t.c. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vasiliy
05-18-05, 11:56 PM Hi

I'd like to specify something.

In PHB on the page 151 I read that for helpless, prone e.t.c. "In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5".

Prone person already has AC melee modifier -4, and how I understand, this -5 modifier is additional. So, summary AC melee prone modifier wills -9? Is it true?

Thanks
Mike W
05-19-05, 02:27 AM I think you want to clarify something, not specify it. :D That aside:

The -4 penalty to armor class for being prone is an unnamed modifier.
The -5 penalty to armor class from being helpless is technically a dexterity bonus.

Therefore, they do stack. Someone who is both prone and helpless suffers a -9 to their armor class.

Remember that being prone does not make you helpless, nor does being helpless make you prone. If you are both though, then you are, as we liked to say back in the old days, royally screwed. :)

Cheers!
FriendoftheDork
05-19-05, 02:47 AM The only time I can think of you are not prone when helpless is when you're Held by a spell.

To clarify, attacker get +4 to hit against prone opponents no matter what. Attacker also gets +4 to hit helpless opponents when not making Coup-de grace (no attack roll). In addition, the dexterity of helpless opponents is treated as 0, so instead of applying dex bonus you only apply the -5 penalty.

Example: Thorg the commoner stumbles on an imaginary turtle and falls to the ground taking 5 subdual damage. Since he's only got 2 hp he's unconscious. He has usually AC 11 (+1 dex) but now his AC is 5. If his neighbour Thran wants to kick him while he's down, he gets a +8 to hit him, so even with his -1 to hit he'll almost certainly damage him.

Note that giving a bonus to attacker or penalty to defender is about the same thing anyway.
Vasiliy
05-19-05, 12:51 PM The -5 penalty to armor class from being helpless is technically a dexterity bonus.

Thanks.

I think we need to clarify terms. In this case -5 is not dexerity BONUS. It's dextiry MODIFIER. Because otherwise a phrase "defender loses any Dexterity bonus" means that defender with negative dexterity modifier will improve his AC when flatfooted, for example.
Nom
05-19-05, 07:46 PM I'm going to disagree with the "prone" arguments - helpless trumps prone. Thus, a helpless character is treated as having a Dex of 0 (with appropriate AC modifier) and the attacker gets +4 to-hit (PH pg 309). A helpless character cannot avoid your attacks or otherwise resist, so it doesn't really matter whether he's frozen bolt upright or lying on the ground asleep. In contrast, prone (PH pg 311) assumes that the character is still active, as it discusses penalties to attacks.

I realise the rules don't specifically say one or the other, but I believe this is both in keeping with the spirit of the rules and common sense.

Note also that PH pg 153 (discussing helpless) lists "bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious or otherwise at your mercy". Since some of these include lying down, I would have expected a comment about prone modifiers. As these are not included in the discussion, it's possible that they don't apply.
Arrowhen
05-19-05, 07:59 PM To clarify, attacker get +4 to hit against prone opponents no matter what.
Unless they're making a ranged attack. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vasiliy 05-18-05, 11:56 PM	Hi I'd like to specify something. In PHB on the page 151 I read that for helpless, prone e.t.c. "In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5". Prone person already has AC melee modifier -4, and how I understand, this -5 modifier is additional. So, summary AC melee prone modifier wills -9? Is it true? Thanks
Mike W 05-19-05, 02:27 AM	I think you want to clarify something, not specify it. :D That aside: The -4 penalty to armor class for being prone is an unnamed modifier. The -5 penalty to armor class from being helpless is technically a dexterity bonus. Therefore, they do stack. Someone who is both prone and helpless suffers a -9 to their armor class. Remember that being prone does not make you helpless, nor does being helpless make you prone. If you are both though, then you are, as we liked to say back in the old days, royally screwed. :) Cheers!
FriendoftheDork 05-19-05, 02:47 AM	The only time I can think of you are not prone when helpless is when you're Held by a spell. To clarify, attacker get +4 to hit against prone opponents no matter what. Attacker also gets +4 to hit helpless opponents when not making Coup-de grace (no attack roll). In addition, the dexterity of helpless opponents is treated as 0, so instead of applying dex bonus you only apply the -5 penalty. Example: Thorg the commoner stumbles on an imaginary turtle and falls to the ground taking 5 subdual damage. Since he's only got 2 hp he's unconscious. He has usually AC 11 (+1 dex) but now his AC is 5. If his neighbour Thran wants to kick him while he's down, he gets a +8 to hit him, so even with his -1 to hit he'll almost certainly damage him. Note that giving a bonus to attacker or penalty to defender is about the same thing anyway.
Vasiliy 05-19-05, 12:51 PM	The -5 penalty to armor class from being helpless is technically a dexterity bonus. Thanks. I think we need to clarify terms. In this case -5 is not dexerity BONUS. It's dextiry MODIFIER. Because otherwise a phrase "defender loses any Dexterity bonus" means that defender with negative dexterity modifier will improve his AC when flatfooted, for example.
Nom 05-19-05, 07:46 PM	I'm going to disagree with the "prone" arguments - helpless trumps prone. Thus, a helpless character is treated as having a Dex of 0 (with appropriate AC modifier) and the attacker gets +4 to-hit (PH pg 309). A helpless character cannot avoid your attacks or otherwise resist, so it doesn't really matter whether he's frozen bolt upright or lying on the ground asleep. In contrast, prone (PH pg 311) assumes that the character is still active, as it discusses penalties to attacks. I realise the rules don't specifically say one or the other, but I believe this is both in keeping with the spirit of the rules and common sense. Note also that PH pg 153 (discussing helpless) lists "bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious or otherwise at your mercy". Since some of these include lying down, I would have expected a comment about prone modifiers. As these are not included in the discussion, it's possible that they don't apply.
Arrowhen 05-19-05, 07:59 PM	To clarify, attacker get +4 to hit against prone opponents no matter what. Unless they're making a ranged attack. ;)