Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blaze the monk 08-08-06, 12:22 PM	A mounted paladin runs 200' across the table. It just so happens that an invisible enemy is directly in his path. The movement rules say that a character cannot pass through a square occupied by an enemy but the paladin doesn't know that an enemy is there. Does the horse just stop before it hits the enemy or do we force the enemy to make a reflex save to get the hell out of the way?
Traevanon 08-08-06, 12:34 PM	At the point that the paladin's movement intersects the invisible creature the paladin becomes aware of it's location. If the Paladin wants to stop here, stop him just before the square of the creature and allow him to attack if he moved a single move or less to get to that point. If the paladin doesnt want to stop then find out if the creature wishes to move out of the way, if it does just move the paladin to the end of his movement and leave the invisible creature where it was. If the paladin wants to continue moving but the inivisible creature doesnt want to move out of the way then the paladin must either bull-rush it or stop.
Archmage Atrus 08-08-06, 12:52 PM	The movement rules say that a character cannot pass through a square occupied by an enemy but the paladin doesn't know that an enemy is there. Actually, this is somewhat misleading. The truth is, you cannot pass through a square occupied by someone who won't let you through. In 99% of cases, an enemy will not let you through, hence why the rule is stated that way. An ally, on the other hand, will let you through - in 99% of cases. However, there is that remaining 1% of the time, when it behooves an enemy to let you through, and when it behooves an ally to not let you through. In other words, an enemy can act like an ally, and an ally can act like an enemy. The switch is instantaneous. If your invisible enemy doesn't want to be seen - he suddenly considers himself an ally and lets the paladin through his square. The paladin finishes his movement and never notices the invisible creature is there. (I would, for the sake of fairness, allow the paladin a spot check DC = enemy's Hide check +20, as the enemy would be in motion at this point and flurrying to avoid being trampled by the horse.) This is, in my opinion, a far better and "fairer" ruling than the one stated above, where the paladin somehow automatically sees the invisible creature, even though there is no reason for him to have done so. Should the creature not wish to remain invisible - why isn't he simply taking advantage of the Paladin's proximity to launch his assault?
WotC_Huscarl 08-08-06, 12:58 PM	I think this is one of those situations that can't really be adjudicated 'by the book' because it's not a situation foreseen by the rules (the DMG seems to address every possibility except blundering into an invisible character). Personally, I'd break the usually strict initiative order in this instance and treat the invisible character as if he had an action on hold. If he wants to get out of the way, he jumps away (maybe with a DC 10 Reflex save just to add a bit of uncertainty), and the paladin is none the wiser that there's an invisible foe in the area. Or he could take a 5-foot step and get an AoO as the paladin rides by, which would give away his position. Or he could stand his ground, which would force the character and the paladin into an involuntary Overrun situation (not a bull rush, IMO -- the paladin isn't trying to push the character back, his intention is just to ride through the space). The horse would have a big advantage in the overrun because of size and strength, but how much of that should be countered by the character's invisibility? Total concealment gives a 50% miss chance. I'd have both the character and the paladin make their usual overrun rolls, and then cut the paladin's roll in half. In every other regard, treat it like a standard overrun. Steve
Arganis 08-08-06, 01:07 PM	However, there is that remaining 1% of the time, when it behooves an enemy to let you through, and when it behooves an ally to not let you through. In other words, an enemy can act like an ally, and an ally can act like an enemy. The switch is instantaneous. Atrus is correct here. The invisible creature can allow the paladin to pass unimpeded. The only question becomes, what happens if the paladin tries to stop in the invisible creature's space?
shadow_kras 08-08-06, 01:16 PM	Or he could take a 5-foot step and get an AoO as the paladin rides by, which would give away his position. This is not valid, a invisible character/creature has cover, so he wouldnt cause a AoO.
triss_erventine 08-08-06, 01:27 PM	In all fairness if the invisibile creature is not prepared for the charging horse then i would allow him a reflex save DC of your choosing depending on the situation. If the reflex is failed than the invisible character is trampled would take a certain amount of damage and possible alert the paladin that something isn't write depending on the size of said invisible creature not only will said creature be trampled but the paladin's horse may be forced to make a reflex or the paladin maybe required to make a ride check to avoid the horse tripping and crashing to the ground possible throwing the paladin from the mount :D oh how evil we dms can be!!! hahaha Anyways i hope this advice helps and if the invisible creature has at least a move action before the paladin gets there and notices the paladin you should let said creature be able to duck out of the way but i still like option number 1 personally more damage all around and should make for an intersting fight if the paladin and invisible assaliant or still up to fight that is :D
scout989 08-08-06, 01:34 PM	This is not valid, a invisible character/creature has cover, so he wouldnt cause a AoO. I'm pretty sure he meant that the invis. creature would get an AoO- on the paladin.
Gottwick 08-08-06, 01:40 PM	I ruled differently lately. I don't want PCs allowing monsters to go through them. It implies too much. When something that moves 200' in 6 seconds comes at you and you're not prepared, there isn't enough time to casually step aside and back into your square. In my ruling, accidental collisions are bull rushes.
WCH 08-08-06, 02:11 PM	The invisible enemy can sidestep if he wishes, or he can brace against it, in which case count it as an overrun attempt.
chitzk0i 08-08-06, 02:25 PM	Just treat it as an overrun.
StevenO 08-08-06, 08:15 PM	Definitely an overrun situation. See the rule on PHB pg 157-158. Improve Overrun wouldn't generally apply but a mounted overrun may. If the invisible creature is that two steps larger (so you can't overrun) then I'd say the situation becomes a very unfavorable Bull Rush attempt.
obsidianrose 08-08-06, 08:34 PM	I'd say allow the mount to make an overrun without the paladin and force the paladin into a ride check not to be surprised and dismounted.