Acid questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Acid questions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zarkan
10-26-04, 05:10 AM Hi to all, I have 2 questions regarding acid damage (I think that this topic is very confused in the rules):

1) If a character falls in a pool of acid and takes the standard 10d6 acid damage, does his equipment melt away? If so, I assume that magic items gets a saving throw to resist the acid damage, right? But against what DC? Or is the character that makes a saving throw for them? And again, against what DC? 10d6 damage is quite high, I would say a Fort DC 20 saving throw... is it reasonable?

2a) the black pudding monster has a nasty acid ability that corrodes weapons and armors. If a character fails a DC 21 reflex save, his weapon/armor (depending on the situation) is destroyed by the acid. Ok, but what if the weapon/armor is magical? It is destroyed anyway if the character fails his reflex save, or it gets another chance using its own saving throw (with a bonus of 2 + half its caster level, as stated in the core rules)? In other words: a magic items gets its own saving ONLY when unattended/unequipped, or that saving throw is in addition to the saving throw of the character that is wielding it?

2b) If a weapon gets a "second" saving throw for the black pudding acid, what if the weapon is intelligent? The SRD says "The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores"... but what the heck does that mean??? :confused: A standard +1 weapon (6th caster level) has a +5 save bonus, but an intelligent +1 weapon with, let's say, 18 wisdom (which is very high) has only +4????? I must be missing something... :confused:

Thank you in advance for your help! :D
Zarkan
10-27-04, 03:53 AM No one would help a poor italian DM? :weep:

;)
Dragonspirit
10-27-04, 04:25 AM 1) I think the item only has to save if the player rolled a natural 1. At least, that's how it works with a fireball.

2a) Yep. It goes byebye (unless it's made of adamantine I believe).

2b) An intelligent item might get it's own save (in addition to it's owners) I think.
darczero
10-27-04, 04:36 AM A character's items receive their own saving throw, even if the owner fails theirs. They use their own save bonus or their owner's, whichever is better. Of course, for effects that allow no save, they don't have to; if the owner can't fail a save, then the items don't really need to make one in the first place. They simply fail.

Then again, for the Total Immersion in Acid, I'd still have any magical items make a save, and the owner make the Reflex save for non-magical items, even though there is no save really mentioned. I'd also consider using Fortitude because it represents physical hardiness, and acid is a form of disintegration (not the same as the spell, I know).

For creatures immune to acid (black dragons and that lot), technically their items are also immune unless specifically targeted (someone using an acid spell to attack the creature's weapon, for example); in the pool of acid, they'd take no damage, but their items would have to make saves normally.

Of course, since I've never personally seen any specific and official rulings on most of your questions, these are all my opinions.
Naeron
10-27-04, 07:44 AM The problem is that your first question is not really covered well by the rules, the damage to attended objects section talks about attended items needing to save if the wearer rolls a 1 on their own save.

The pool of acid doesn't give a save, which means that either the items don't need to save because the owner doesn't need to save, or that the items do need to save because the acid damages everything. The rules are not explicitly clear on this point.

What is clear is that if the person dies in the pool of acid them all of their items become unattended and will then be damaged by the acid and eventually destroyed.

In light of this (and the fact that dissolving metal should take a bit longer than 6 seconds) the fairest route seems to be to ignore item damage until the person dies and then apply item damage. Another route would be to call for 1 save a round applying the rules for the item most likely to be damaged as per magic attacks. This would limit the loss to 1 item a round.

For the black pudding the item is the one making the save. Attended items use their owners save unless their own is better. So a +1 Flaming Longsword (CL10) has a REF save bonus of +7, in the hands of a 10th level fighter with 12 DEX (+4 REF bonus) the item would use its own bonus for the saving throw.

An intelligent magic item uses the normal procedure for Fort and Ref saves but its own Wisdom score for Will saves. So an unattended intelligent item can be very susceptible to effects that require a will save. However if attended they will probably use the owners will save which will almost certainly be higher than their own.
masterofmayhem
10-29-04, 06:46 PM 2a) If a character fails a DC 21 reflex save, his weapon/armor (depending on the situation) is destroyed by the acid.

You get a reflex save for that?!?!? :confused: :eek: :weep: :mymy: :headexplo

2b) If a weapon gets a "second" saving throw for the black pudding acid, what if the weapon is intelligent? The SRD says "The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores"... but what the heck does that mean??? :confused: A standard +1 weapon (6th caster level) has a +5 save bonus, but an intelligent +1 weapon with, let's say, 18 wisdom (which is very high) has only +4????? I must be missing something... :confused:
That means that they add their wisdom bonus to their base save bonus. You don't take it instead of it.

1) If a character falls in a pool of acid and takes the standard 10d6 acid damage, does his equipment melt away? If so, I assume that magic items gets a saving throw to resist the acid damage, right? But against what DC? Or is the character that makes a saving throw for them? And again, against what DC? 10d6 damage is quite high, I would say a Fort DC 20 saving throw... is it reasonable?

I don't think they do get a save. They would take damage just like the spell Acid Fog (I think).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zarkan 10-26-04, 05:10 AM	Hi to all, I have 2 questions regarding acid damage (I think that this topic is very confused in the rules): 1) If a character falls in a pool of acid and takes the standard 10d6 acid damage, does his equipment melt away? If so, I assume that magic items gets a saving throw to resist the acid damage, right? But against what DC? Or is the character that makes a saving throw for them? And again, against what DC? 10d6 damage is quite high, I would say a Fort DC 20 saving throw... is it reasonable? 2a) the black pudding monster has a nasty acid ability that corrodes weapons and armors. If a character fails a DC 21 reflex save, his weapon/armor (depending on the situation) is destroyed by the acid. Ok, but what if the weapon/armor is magical? It is destroyed anyway if the character fails his reflex save, or it gets another chance using its own saving throw (with a bonus of 2 + half its caster level, as stated in the core rules)? In other words: a magic items gets its own saving ONLY when unattended/unequipped, or that saving throw is in addition to the saving throw of the character that is wielding it? 2b) If a weapon gets a "second" saving throw for the black pudding acid, what if the weapon is intelligent? The SRD says "The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores"... but what the heck does that mean??? :confused: A standard +1 weapon (6th caster level) has a +5 save bonus, but an intelligent +1 weapon with, let's say, 18 wisdom (which is very high) has only +4????? I must be missing something... :confused: Thank you in advance for your help! :D
Zarkan 10-27-04, 03:53 AM	No one would help a poor italian DM? :weep: ;)
Dragonspirit 10-27-04, 04:25 AM	1) I think the item only has to save if the player rolled a natural 1. At least, that's how it works with a fireball. 2a) Yep. It goes byebye (unless it's made of adamantine I believe). 2b) An intelligent item might get it's own save (in addition to it's owners) I think.
darczero 10-27-04, 04:36 AM	A character's items receive their own saving throw, even if the owner fails theirs. They use their own save bonus or their owner's, whichever is better. Of course, for effects that allow no save, they don't have to; if the owner can't fail a save, then the items don't really need to make one in the first place. They simply fail. Then again, for the Total Immersion in Acid, I'd still have any magical items make a save, and the owner make the Reflex save for non-magical items, even though there is no save really mentioned. I'd also consider using Fortitude because it represents physical hardiness, and acid is a form of disintegration (not the same as the spell, I know). For creatures immune to acid (black dragons and that lot), technically their items are also immune unless specifically targeted (someone using an acid spell to attack the creature's weapon, for example); in the pool of acid, they'd take no damage, but their items would have to make saves normally. Of course, since I've never personally seen any specific and official rulings on most of your questions, these are all my opinions.
Naeron 10-27-04, 07:44 AM	The problem is that your first question is not really covered well by the rules, the damage to attended objects section talks about attended items needing to save if the wearer rolls a 1 on their own save. The pool of acid doesn't give a save, which means that either the items don't need to save because the owner doesn't need to save, or that the items do need to save because the acid damages everything. The rules are not explicitly clear on this point. What is clear is that if the person dies in the pool of acid them all of their items become unattended and will then be damaged by the acid and eventually destroyed. In light of this (and the fact that dissolving metal should take a bit longer than 6 seconds) the fairest route seems to be to ignore item damage until the person dies and then apply item damage. Another route would be to call for 1 save a round applying the rules for the item most likely to be damaged as per magic attacks. This would limit the loss to 1 item a round. For the black pudding the item is the one making the save. Attended items use their owners save unless their own is better. So a +1 Flaming Longsword (CL10) has a REF save bonus of +7, in the hands of a 10th level fighter with 12 DEX (+4 REF bonus) the item would use its own bonus for the saving throw. An intelligent magic item uses the normal procedure for Fort and Ref saves but its own Wisdom score for Will saves. So an unattended intelligent item can be very susceptible to effects that require a will save. However if attended they will probably use the owners will save which will almost certainly be higher than their own.
masterofmayhem 10-29-04, 06:46 PM	2a) If a character fails a DC 21 reflex save, his weapon/armor (depending on the situation) is destroyed by the acid. You get a reflex save for that?!?!? :confused: :eek: :weep: :mymy: :headexplo 2b) If a weapon gets a "second" saving throw for the black pudding acid, what if the weapon is intelligent? The SRD says "The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores"... but what the heck does that mean??? :confused: A standard +1 weapon (6th caster level) has a +5 save bonus, but an intelligent +1 weapon with, let's say, 18 wisdom (which is very high) has only +4????? I must be missing something... :confused: That means that they add their wisdom bonus to their base save bonus. You don't take it instead of it. 1) If a character falls in a pool of acid and takes the standard 10d6 acid damage, does his equipment melt away? If so, I assume that magic items gets a saving throw to resist the acid damage, right? But against what DC? Or is the character that makes a saving throw for them? And again, against what DC? 10d6 damage is quite high, I would say a Fort DC 20 saving throw... is it reasonable? I don't think they do get a save. They would take damage just like the spell Acid Fog (I think).