Acquired Templates and Level Adjustments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Acquired Templates and Level Adjustments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The_Caitiff
09-23-05, 06:53 PM Hello everyone, I've got a question that is really game altering (for my campaign at least).

If you acquire a template do you need to take any included level adjustments? Specifically I am asking about the Dragon Disciple prestige Class and the Half Dragon template. I have noticed that a sorceror in my game who is nearing the end of that PrC is disproportionately more powerful than others in the party. In short he has become a spell casting tank, the man rolls through combats without a scratch that kill or seriously injure other party members.

In one or two more game sessions he will achieve DD10, and dragon apotheosis. Dragon Apotheosis says he will take the remainder of the Half Dragon template as described on page 143 of the MM. That template adds a level adjustment to the character, but I am unsure of whether or not it should be included since this is the end result of a 10 level Prc where he sacrificed spellcasting prowess for these benefits.

Looking foward, the rest of the party will shortly (2-3 levels) match or exceed his current skill. It genuinely appears that the level adjustment is valid, but I am unsure of the long term pro/con balance since this campaign has epic aspirations.
q'afuu
09-23-05, 07:09 PM Becoming a half-dragon is part of the PrC benefits, there is no additional LA cost.

I think you'll find most people here (including myself) consider the DD a reasonable to underpowered PrC, rather than a powerful one. It's hard to give any specific comments without knowing anything about the character (or the others), but I'm fairly sure there's something unusual somewhere if the DD character is overshadowing the other PCs to the extent of being worth an added 2-3 levels...

The 'spellcasting tank' description makes me wonder though. DDs don't increase their caster level, all they do is gain extra spells known, limited by the level they can cast. Pre-epic, that's 5th at best, but likely it's lower in this case. Missing out on ten caster levels should really put a serious crimp on the character in terms of magic.
The_Caitiff
09-24-05, 04:30 AM Thats certainly true, but ten levels of d12 hit die and con bonuses while everyone else is progressing with d6 hit die leads to the DD being able to take a good walloping while still turning out respectable damage. Of course its under no ones control that other pc's got bad hit die rolls and the DD got good ones, thats just how the dice fell.

Throw in wings, flyby attack, strength (and therefore damage) bonuses, and fireballs and they are the new untouchable fighter/bombers. Flying nigh out of range to even archers and dropping area of effect spells, or dive bombing past while attacking so as to be out of melee range at the end of their initiative. Against almost any ground based target, the response looks alot like a carpet bombing.

I guess its a matter of tactics and luck. The DD is better equipped to handle the same challenges without taking the same damage. In a few levels the other pc's will likewise be able to thoroughly pwn the current CR with minimal damage.
q'afuu
09-24-05, 09:35 AM Throw in wings, flyby attack, strength (and therefore damage) bonuses, and fireballs and they are the new untouchable fighter/bombers. Flying nigh out of range to even archers and dropping area of effect spells, or dive bombing past while attacking so as to be out of melee range at the end of their initiative. Against almost any ground based target, the response looks alot like a carpet bombing. Nigh out of range of archers? Fireball range is 400 ft. + 40 ft./level which will be about 600 ft. in this case, I presume. That's in range even for a basic shortbow, 6 range increments for a composite longbow. At levels above 10, purely ground-based opponents should be an exception anyway.

On top of that, these fireballs do what, 5d6 Ref for half damage? That's an average of 17.5 if the save fails and there are no resistances of immunities. At level 14 (at a guess) or higher, that's piddling. And the character will likely need a wand to cast more than 2 or 3 of these a day - and wands are available to anyone with the spell on their spell list or with UMD.

Besides, we're talking about a 14th level character casting a 3rd level spell - regular casters are casting 6th or even 7th level spells by now. They should be able to dish out stuff *much* more powerful than this fighter/bomber.

The character also has a BAB of about 9-10 at level 14, and crap proficiencies unless he multiclassed into fighter or barbarian or something (incidentally, probably the best DD builds involve only a single bard, cleric or sorc level and a bunch of full BAB levels on top of that).

Seriously, I don't see what this character can do that's so out of order.
VerinBlod
09-24-05, 09:50 AM Well the loss of spell casting makes up for all these things you describe. So I wouldn't give a LA. And I don't see how he actually overshadows the others in the party. If there is another caster he will at that level have better spells which do a lot more damge than the DD.
Heck even a normal sorcerer at that level can do the things your DD does without a PrC. Just cast fly, greater invis and start throwing fire balls or what not at the enemy. So it has probably more to do with the rest of the party underpowered or not useing their resources to their full potential.
ermedic
09-24-05, 10:37 AM My take on the DD is that it's a fairly weak PrC. The Con, Str, and hit dice issues are just as easily replicated with other races/classes. His spell casting should be extremely limited if he's an 8th level DD. I'd like to hear a little more about what's taking place in the combats that makes him so overpowering. I suspect that he has misinterpreted the rules or is fudging the numbers.
Mirikon
09-24-05, 11:16 AM Becoming a half-dragon through the Dragon Disciple PrC does not entail any LA. As for the power of the class, it depends on your campaign style. I've played a DD before where he was able to hold his own in melee quite nicely. And never underestimate the intimidation effect of ripping out your foe's heart with your teeth, and spitting it at his buddies. See, in that campaign, we were taking down a bunch of human or other LA +0 race clerics. the Claw-claw-bite worked wonders, and that was before I'd even gotten past level 2 of the PrC.
Jaxgaret
09-24-05, 01:16 PM "Thats certainly true, but ten levels of d12 hit die and con bonuses while everyone else is progressing with d6 hit die leads to the DD being able to take a good walloping while still turning out respectable damage."

DDs don't get ten levels of d12 hit dice. They get three levels of d6 hit dice, two levels of d8 hit dice, and five levels of d10 hit dice. The difference between the two totals is 18 hit points. It's in the Dragon Disciple table in Tome and Blood, check it out, you might have missed something else that is powering up your player's character as well.

Edit: Maybe you included the +2 Con bonus in the 7th DD level as part of the hit dice progression? If so, then your calculations are essentially correct, the +2 con bonus would effectively make the 10 levels approximately d12 hit dice. (Fuzzy math)
Mirikon
09-24-05, 06:47 PM "Thats certainly true, but ten levels of d12 hit die and con bonuses while everyone else is progressing with d6 hit die leads to the DD being able to take a good walloping while still turning out respectable damage."

DDs don't get ten levels of d12 hit dice. They get three levels of d6 hit dice, two levels of d8 hit dice, and five levels of d10 hit dice. The difference between the two totals is 18 hit points. It's in the Dragon Disciple table in Tome and Blood, check it out, you might have missed something else that is powering up your player's character as well.

Edit: Maybe you included the +2 Con bonus in the 7th DD level as part of the hit dice progression? If so, then your calculations are essentially correct, the +2 con bonus would effectively make the 10 levels approximately d12 hit dice. (Fuzzy math)

In 3.5, the Dragon Disciple is listed in the core books, with ten levels of d12 HD.
Nom
09-24-05, 07:47 PM I once compared taking 10 levels of DD to 10 levels of fighter. They work out pretty even. The DD suffers a little on BAB, and his pre-reqs also hamper is melee ability. The DD gets special abilities and ability boosts (which compensate for the lower BAB); the fighter gets feats.

By 15th level (ie completed progression), flight and energy immunity shouldn't be that remarkable. flight is a 3rd level spell, as is protection from energy. resist energy is a 2nd level spell. If 15th level characters don't have access to these effects, something is badly wrong.
Jaxgaret
09-25-05, 12:34 AM In 3.5, the Dragon Disciple is listed in the core books, with ten levels of d12 HD.

ah, sorry bout that. my group still does 3.0, didn't know DD was core in 3.5. thanks for the info!

EDIT: 3.5 DD good! 3.0 DD bad

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Caitiff 09-23-05, 06:53 PM	Hello everyone, I've got a question that is really game altering (for my campaign at least). If you acquire a template do you need to take any included level adjustments? Specifically I am asking about the Dragon Disciple prestige Class and the Half Dragon template. I have noticed that a sorceror in my game who is nearing the end of that PrC is disproportionately more powerful than others in the party. In short he has become a spell casting tank, the man rolls through combats without a scratch that kill or seriously injure other party members. In one or two more game sessions he will achieve DD10, and dragon apotheosis. Dragon Apotheosis says he will take the remainder of the Half Dragon template as described on page 143 of the MM. That template adds a level adjustment to the character, but I am unsure of whether or not it should be included since this is the end result of a 10 level Prc where he sacrificed spellcasting prowess for these benefits. Looking foward, the rest of the party will shortly (2-3 levels) match or exceed his current skill. It genuinely appears that the level adjustment is valid, but I am unsure of the long term pro/con balance since this campaign has epic aspirations.
q'afuu 09-23-05, 07:09 PM	Becoming a half-dragon is part of the PrC benefits, there is no additional LA cost. I think you'll find most people here (including myself) consider the DD a reasonable to underpowered PrC, rather than a powerful one. It's hard to give any specific comments without knowing anything about the character (or the others), but I'm fairly sure there's something unusual somewhere if the DD character is overshadowing the other PCs to the extent of being worth an added 2-3 levels... The 'spellcasting tank' description makes me wonder though. DDs don't increase their caster level, all they do is gain extra spells known, limited by the level they can cast. Pre-epic, that's 5th at best, but likely it's lower in this case. Missing out on ten caster levels should really put a serious crimp on the character in terms of magic.
The_Caitiff 09-24-05, 04:30 AM	Thats certainly true, but ten levels of d12 hit die and con bonuses while everyone else is progressing with d6 hit die leads to the DD being able to take a good walloping while still turning out respectable damage. Of course its under no ones control that other pc's got bad hit die rolls and the DD got good ones, thats just how the dice fell. Throw in wings, flyby attack, strength (and therefore damage) bonuses, and fireballs and they are the new untouchable fighter/bombers. Flying nigh out of range to even archers and dropping area of effect spells, or dive bombing past while attacking so as to be out of melee range at the end of their initiative. Against almost any ground based target, the response looks alot like a carpet bombing. I guess its a matter of tactics and luck. The DD is better equipped to handle the same challenges without taking the same damage. In a few levels the other pc's will likewise be able to thoroughly pwn the current CR with minimal damage.
q'afuu 09-24-05, 09:35 AM	Throw in wings, flyby attack, strength (and therefore damage) bonuses, and fireballs and they are the new untouchable fighter/bombers. Flying nigh out of range to even archers and dropping area of effect spells, or dive bombing past while attacking so as to be out of melee range at the end of their initiative. Against almost any ground based target, the response looks alot like a carpet bombing. Nigh out of range of archers? Fireball range is 400 ft. + 40 ft./level which will be about 600 ft. in this case, I presume. That's in range even for a basic shortbow, 6 range increments for a composite longbow. At levels above 10, purely ground-based opponents should be an exception anyway. On top of that, these fireballs do what, 5d6 Ref for half damage? That's an average of 17.5 if the save fails and there are no resistances of immunities. At level 14 (at a guess) or higher, that's piddling. And the character will likely need a wand to cast more than 2 or 3 of these a day - and wands are available to anyone with the spell on their spell list or with UMD. Besides, we're talking about a 14th level character casting a 3rd level spell - regular casters are casting 6th or even 7th level spells by now. They should be able to dish out stuff much more powerful than this fighter/bomber. The character also has a BAB of about 9-10 at level 14, and crap proficiencies unless he multiclassed into fighter or barbarian or something (incidentally, probably the best DD builds involve only a single bard, cleric or sorc level and a bunch of full BAB levels on top of that). Seriously, I don't see what this character can do that's so out of order.
VerinBlod 09-24-05, 09:50 AM	Well the loss of spell casting makes up for all these things you describe. So I wouldn't give a LA. And I don't see how he actually overshadows the others in the party. If there is another caster he will at that level have better spells which do a lot more damge than the DD. Heck even a normal sorcerer at that level can do the things your DD does without a PrC. Just cast fly, greater invis and start throwing fire balls or what not at the enemy. So it has probably more to do with the rest of the party underpowered or not useing their resources to their full potential.
ermedic 09-24-05, 10:37 AM	My take on the DD is that it's a fairly weak PrC. The Con, Str, and hit dice issues are just as easily replicated with other races/classes. His spell casting should be extremely limited if he's an 8th level DD. I'd like to hear a little more about what's taking place in the combats that makes him so overpowering. I suspect that he has misinterpreted the rules or is fudging the numbers.
Mirikon 09-24-05, 11:16 AM	Becoming a half-dragon through the Dragon Disciple PrC does not entail any LA. As for the power of the class, it depends on your campaign style. I've played a DD before where he was able to hold his own in melee quite nicely. And never underestimate the intimidation effect of ripping out your foe's heart with your teeth, and spitting it at his buddies. See, in that campaign, we were taking down a bunch of human or other LA +0 race clerics. the Claw-claw-bite worked wonders, and that was before I'd even gotten past level 2 of the PrC.
Jaxgaret 09-24-05, 01:16 PM	"Thats certainly true, but ten levels of d12 hit die and con bonuses while everyone else is progressing with d6 hit die leads to the DD being able to take a good walloping while still turning out respectable damage." DDs don't get ten levels of d12 hit dice. They get three levels of d6 hit dice, two levels of d8 hit dice, and five levels of d10 hit dice. The difference between the two totals is 18 hit points. It's in the Dragon Disciple table in Tome and Blood, check it out, you might have missed something else that is powering up your player's character as well. Edit: Maybe you included the +2 Con bonus in the 7th DD level as part of the hit dice progression? If so, then your calculations are essentially correct, the +2 con bonus would effectively make the 10 levels approximately d12 hit dice. (Fuzzy math)
Mirikon 09-24-05, 06:47 PM	"Thats certainly true, but ten levels of d12 hit die and con bonuses while everyone else is progressing with d6 hit die leads to the DD being able to take a good walloping while still turning out respectable damage." DDs don't get ten levels of d12 hit dice. They get three levels of d6 hit dice, two levels of d8 hit dice, and five levels of d10 hit dice. The difference between the two totals is 18 hit points. It's in the Dragon Disciple table in Tome and Blood, check it out, you might have missed something else that is powering up your player's character as well. Edit: Maybe you included the +2 Con bonus in the 7th DD level as part of the hit dice progression? If so, then your calculations are essentially correct, the +2 con bonus would effectively make the 10 levels approximately d12 hit dice. (Fuzzy math) In 3.5, the Dragon Disciple is listed in the core books, with ten levels of d12 HD.
Nom 09-24-05, 07:47 PM	I once compared taking 10 levels of DD to 10 levels of fighter. They work out pretty even. The DD suffers a little on BAB, and his pre-reqs also hamper is melee ability. The DD gets special abilities and ability boosts (which compensate for the lower BAB); the fighter gets feats. By 15th level (ie completed progression), flight and energy immunity shouldn't be that remarkable. flight is a 3rd level spell, as is protection from energy. resist energy is a 2nd level spell. If 15th level characters don't have access to these effects, something is badly wrong.
Jaxgaret 09-25-05, 12:34 AM	In 3.5, the Dragon Disciple is listed in the core books, with ten levels of d12 HD. ah, sorry bout that. my group still does 3.0, didn't know DD was core in 3.5. thanks for the info! EDIT: 3.5 DD good! 3.0 DD bad