Action Points? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Action Points? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elemental_Elf
01-28-06, 04:00 AM How have Action Points worked in your campaigns? Are they a cool idea or 'meh' or stupid. I want to know because I'm making a new Capaign and I want to use Action Pointsb ut, I wanted to find out they work right before I use them.
WCH
01-28-06, 04:08 AM I've heard there are a lot of ways of abusing the system as written... like loops that let you get far too many action points. Dunno the specifics, I just remember it being discussed that it isn't well balanced.
Jutter
01-28-06, 05:36 AM How have Action Points worked in your campaigns? Are they a cool idea or 'meh' or stupid. I want to know because I'm making a new Capaign and I want to use Action Pointsb ut, I wanted to find out they work right before I use them.

I kicked them out, because they stimulated meta-game thinking among my players. "O, last time I missed on 20, so I'll use an action point. He must have an armor class somewhere between 20 and 25, so I should have a fair chance to hit."
Nom
01-28-06, 08:28 AM There are (at least) two sets of WotC published action point rules, one in Unearthed Arcana and one in the Eberron Campaign Setting. Considering that ECS only grants AP on level up I'm not sure how you can possibly get into a loop.

AP basically function as "edge", allowing PCs to turn near misses into hits. To function well a degree of mechanical analysis is required, but then most groups I've played with tend to quickly figure out target ACs anyway for the purpose of flanking, TWF, power attack, ... .

{aside: As it happens, the above isn't "metagaming"; it's just mapping the game mechanics back into what the characters can perceive. It's hardly reasonable to assume the PCs can't tell the difference between a good swing and a bad swing or a near miss and a hit. Metagaming is basing decisions on the fact that you are playing a game, rather than what the characters can observe (eg "we can beat this challenge because the DM wouldn't throw something at us that we can't beat") or know (eg responding to activity your PC isn't there to witness).}

I find AP work well as long as the PCs remember to use them, and help provide some insurance against "bad luck".
nastynate
01-28-06, 08:51 AM The only known abuses of AP within the structure of the Eberron system are tied to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=565966&page=1&pp=30) trick. While the endless font of spells is really busted, simply don't allow the unfettered heroism spell and the whole combo is impossible. As it stands I love the action point system, and I have even gone so far as to award AP in place of bonus XP for good roleplaying in my games. Nothin' says lovin' like AP; they save your PCs behinds when they need to make a save, or kill the BBEG, or make some impossible skill check. I also let my PCs ask for a DM "hint" at the cost of 1 AP. They love the action point system, and so do I.
Cymraegmorgan
01-28-06, 08:53 AM I wrapped Action Points and Spell Points into Resource Points in my CS(linked in my sig).

I have had no problems arise from abuse.
WayneTheGame
01-28-06, 09:48 AM Personally, I like Action Points, but I don't think they do enough. They're supposed to represent cinematic, normally-that-would-be-impossible type maneuvers, and what do you get instead? A measly maximum of 6 (8 with a certain feat) added to a dice roll. In other words, you can *still* roll pathetically low and decide even if you use an Action Point, you'll fail.

I am toying around with the idea to make action points TRULY cinematic, along the lines of Willpower in Vampire and Karma in Shadowrun. Instead of it adding to a roll, you can burn an action point to automatically succeed at a skill check for something cinematic. For example: If you want to swing from the chandelier and deftly land behind the BBEG with your rapier drawn, if you burn an action point you automatically do it. Also possibly going to incorporate some of the advanced uses from Unearthed Arcana.

If and when I ever make a full writeup I'll post it for others to see, but I think that Action Points were a good idea but not taken far enough. What's cinematic about being able to add a pathetically small amount to a die roll that could *still* be far too low to succeed? In games I've played/run, people either forget completely about APs or only use them when they're fighting the BBEG (and even then it's almost always on a hit roll. I have never seen a player use an AP on a skill check). Good concept, pathetic execution.
HalasterAteMyHamster
01-28-06, 10:25 AM I kicked them out, because they stimulated meta-game thinking among my players. "O, last time I missed on 20, so I'll use an action point. He must have an armor class somewhere between 20 and 25, so I should have a fair chance to hit."
How is that metagaming? The player saw that his most powerful blow was deflected, so decided to put in a strong effort to get one hit through.

The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat.
nastynate
01-28-06, 10:47 AM The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat.

Dang those metagamers that choose intelligent tactics over fights to the death! They're ruining my game. :rofl:
Lady Maedhros
01-28-06, 11:16 AM How is that metagaming? The player saw that his most powerful blow was deflected, so decided to put in a strong effort to get one hit through.

The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat.

Reminds me of my first DM spazzing when i pulled out my adamantium mace after my two-bladed sword made no impact on a golem. Um?

Anyway, i agree with Wayne. Action points are a cool thought, but too limited in usage. Hell, i was in a tournament at GenCon where we used 'em, and that's six to eight action points you can burn in one session and we all forgot to use ours.
astute1
01-28-06, 01:40 PM The Action Points as presented in Unearthed Arcana are a bit too powerful for my tastes. However, the Eberron version seems to work quite nicely. For reference, the Eberron version is basically a stripped-down version of the UA version. For example, in the UA version, one of the base things you can do with action points is spend 2 AP to get another standard action in a round. In Eberron, you have to take the feat Action Surge in order to access this ability. The ability is still there, but the cost is higher.

Do action points inspire metagame thinking? Yes and no. Certainly on attack rolls, once the players have figured out the enemies AC, deciding whether to use an AP is almost metagaming. However, it's also nearly impossible to keep people from doing this kind of stuff. I just figure that their character is keeping track of how hard it is to land a blow on the enemy during the course of the fight.
green_yawgmoth
01-28-06, 04:40 PM I use the ECS and UA action point system in my game, and it hasn't had any negative effect on my game. Most of the time, my players forget they even have them, and one player even took the action surge (roll d8s instead of d6s) feat!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Good Agnostic
01-28-06, 05:24 PM Our current group uses the Eberron AP system and it works out very well. Different players use them differently. I recommend always saving one for stablizing in negative HP's....
ecienavxela
01-28-06, 09:34 PM Where can I read up on Action Points? The only one I know of is d20 Modern, and I don't think that meshes well with DnD... I could be wrong though...
imperialjunkie
01-28-06, 11:35 PM I use them and like them a lot. I don't run Eberron but have imported some of the Eberron feats into my campaign and use a scaled down version of the UA rules. One of the best features is using them to automatically stabilize. It saves a lot of PC deaths at low levels. Some would say that doing this negates the need for the Heal skill, but it doesn't. As a player I would allow others to try to Heal me until I was at the brink of death in order to save my Action Point. It is metagaming to a degree, but it is warranted.
Nom
01-29-06, 05:16 AM Where can I read up on Action Points? The only one I know of is d20 Modern, and I don't think that meshes well with DnD... I could be wrong though...See above:There are (at least) two sets of WotC published action point rules, one in Unearthed Arcana and one in the Eberron Campaign Setting.
Lina_Inverse
01-29-06, 05:18 AM I love action points. Every game needs some form of drama point system to give player control to there success and failure.
Jutter
01-29-06, 05:36 AM How is that metagaming? The player saw that his most powerful blow was deflected, so decided to put in a strong effort to get one hit through.

The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat.

Darn, what was I thinking? Of course my given example is not metagame thinking. I'll hit my head with the gaming table a few times, maybe it'll switch on my brain.

Anyway, I prefer my players not discussing a monster's AC or save DC's out loud during combat. As far as the results of an attack roll should be visible to PC's, I doubt the same goes for the fighter's will save. Next to that, the constant decision about 'should I use an action point or not' slows down combat. And in return we get these 'great action-filled moments of exceptional luck' or something. If they want luck, they should roll a natural 20 ;)
JD
01-29-06, 05:49 AM Behold, Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm)!

I've never tried them, but they look interesting.
ehrin
01-29-06, 10:40 AM My new DM allows them, and some of the other guys in the game love them. My character has never used one yet (only second level). I just don't like the idea of a reward that I lose if i don't use it (lost at every level, get new ones at every level), a reward that is the same for every player (ie, doesn't depend on role playing or luck or skill or...), and dragging myself out of character to alter a die roll or two.

Basically, i save mine for stabilizing myself if I frop below Zero hitpoints. Just my opinion.
anders
01-29-06, 11:59 AM Action points are cool, and the only noteworthy bad side effect i've found is that pcs tend to make their saves more often, which nerfs magic users.

But action points can really really save the pcs when their dice just cant seem to get above 5.
YRM
01-29-06, 12:40 PM How have Action Points worked in your campaigns? Are they a cool idea or 'meh' or stupid. I want to know because I'm making a new Capaign and I want to use Action Pointsb ut, I wanted to find out they work right before I use them.

We use a modified Action Point system in our Forgotten Realm setting.

Action Points are given out for memorable events, brave acts, vivid descriptions, and great moments of role-playing. I usually give out 1 at a time.

A character can only have his level in action points stored up.

Action points can be used in the following ways.

1 - A point spent will stabilize a character who is bleeding to death.
2 - Up to half your level in points can be added to a d20 roll.
3 - Half your PCs level, plus one, can be spent to reroll one d20 roll before you know the result of the original roll. This is a powerful ability, but it takes a while to earn the points to pull it off, and you can only do it once because of the "half level +1" requirement.

This system has encouraged role playing and vivid combat descriptions.

"I swing at the orc."

Has become...

"I bring my axe down in an arc, trying to come over the orc's shield and bite into his shoulder."

Such a description isn't an automatic action point, but, repeated efforts could yield one.

Also, if a vivid description is then followed by a critical hit, the effort+luck is more likely to sway the DM.

"I sweep around with a leg trip, keep spinning, and try to stun the foe with a right cross to the jaw as he's falling..."

Imp. Trips... Trip attempt succeed... Natural 20 on the Stunning Fist... Stun attempt works...

DM says, "Your opponent cries out as you take out the back of his knee and he begins falling, from in close, a tight, powerful right hand hits right on the sweet spot and your opponent's eyes roll up in his head and he's laying flat on his back, shaking unconsciously."

Now, a sequence like that is probably worth an action point.

Any time a DM acknowledges that such description is better than, "I trip the guy and punch him with a stunning attack", there's a positive reenforcement towards making the game more vibrant.

Conclusion. I like action points. They do exactly what I want them to do in my campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elemental_Elf 01-28-06, 04:00 AM	How have Action Points worked in your campaigns? Are they a cool idea or 'meh' or stupid. I want to know because I'm making a new Capaign and I want to use Action Pointsb ut, I wanted to find out they work right before I use them.
WCH 01-28-06, 04:08 AM	I've heard there are a lot of ways of abusing the system as written... like loops that let you get far too many action points. Dunno the specifics, I just remember it being discussed that it isn't well balanced.
Jutter 01-28-06, 05:36 AM	How have Action Points worked in your campaigns? Are they a cool idea or 'meh' or stupid. I want to know because I'm making a new Capaign and I want to use Action Pointsb ut, I wanted to find out they work right before I use them. I kicked them out, because they stimulated meta-game thinking among my players. "O, last time I missed on 20, so I'll use an action point. He must have an armor class somewhere between 20 and 25, so I should have a fair chance to hit."
Nom 01-28-06, 08:28 AM	There are (at least) two sets of WotC published action point rules, one in Unearthed Arcana and one in the Eberron Campaign Setting. Considering that ECS only grants AP on level up I'm not sure how you can possibly get into a loop. AP basically function as "edge", allowing PCs to turn near misses into hits. To function well a degree of mechanical analysis is required, but then most groups I've played with tend to quickly figure out target ACs anyway for the purpose of flanking, TWF, power attack, ... . {aside: As it happens, the above isn't "metagaming"; it's just mapping the game mechanics back into what the characters can perceive. It's hardly reasonable to assume the PCs can't tell the difference between a good swing and a bad swing or a near miss and a hit. Metagaming is basing decisions on the fact that you are playing a game, rather than what the characters can observe (eg "we can beat this challenge because the DM wouldn't throw something at us that we can't beat") or know (eg responding to activity your PC isn't there to witness).} I find AP work well as long as the PCs remember to use them, and help provide some insurance against "bad luck".
nastynate 01-28-06, 08:51 AM	The only known abuses of AP within the structure of the Eberron system are tied to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=565966&page=1&pp=30) trick. While the endless font of spells is really busted, simply don't allow the unfettered heroism spell and the whole combo is impossible. As it stands I love the action point system, and I have even gone so far as to award AP in place of bonus XP for good roleplaying in my games. Nothin' says lovin' like AP; they save your PCs behinds when they need to make a save, or kill the BBEG, or make some impossible skill check. I also let my PCs ask for a DM "hint" at the cost of 1 AP. They love the action point system, and so do I.
Cymraegmorgan 01-28-06, 08:53 AM	I wrapped Action Points and Spell Points into Resource Points in my CS(linked in my sig). I have had no problems arise from abuse.
WayneTheGame 01-28-06, 09:48 AM	Personally, I like Action Points, but I don't think they do enough. They're supposed to represent cinematic, normally-that-would-be-impossible type maneuvers, and what do you get instead? A measly maximum of 6 (8 with a certain feat) added to a dice roll. In other words, you can still roll pathetically low and decide even if you use an Action Point, you'll fail. I am toying around with the idea to make action points TRULY cinematic, along the lines of Willpower in Vampire and Karma in Shadowrun. Instead of it adding to a roll, you can burn an action point to automatically succeed at a skill check for something cinematic. For example: If you want to swing from the chandelier and deftly land behind the BBEG with your rapier drawn, if you burn an action point you automatically do it. Also possibly going to incorporate some of the advanced uses from Unearthed Arcana. If and when I ever make a full writeup I'll post it for others to see, but I think that Action Points were a good idea but not taken far enough. What's cinematic about being able to add a pathetically small amount to a die roll that could still be far too low to succeed? In games I've played/run, people either forget completely about APs or only use them when they're fighting the BBEG (and even then it's almost always on a hit roll. I have never seen a player use an AP on a skill check). Good concept, pathetic execution.
HalasterAteMyHamster 01-28-06, 10:25 AM	I kicked them out, because they stimulated meta-game thinking among my players. "O, last time I missed on 20, so I'll use an action point. He must have an armor class somewhere between 20 and 25, so I should have a fair chance to hit." How is that metagaming? The player saw that his most powerful blow was deflected, so decided to put in a strong effort to get one hit through. The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat.
nastynate 01-28-06, 10:47 AM	The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat. Dang those metagamers that choose intelligent tactics over fights to the death! They're ruining my game. :rofl:
Lady Maedhros 01-28-06, 11:16 AM	How is that metagaming? The player saw that his most powerful blow was deflected, so decided to put in a strong effort to get one hit through. The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat. Reminds me of my first DM spazzing when i pulled out my adamantium mace after my two-bladed sword made no impact on a golem. Um? Anyway, i agree with Wayne. Action points are a cool thought, but too limited in usage. Hell, i was in a tournament at GenCon where we used 'em, and that's six to eight action points you can burn in one session and we all forgot to use ours.
astute1 01-28-06, 01:40 PM	The Action Points as presented in Unearthed Arcana are a bit too powerful for my tastes. However, the Eberron version seems to work quite nicely. For reference, the Eberron version is basically a stripped-down version of the UA version. For example, in the UA version, one of the base things you can do with action points is spend 2 AP to get another standard action in a round. In Eberron, you have to take the feat Action Surge in order to access this ability. The ability is still there, but the cost is higher. Do action points inspire metagame thinking? Yes and no. Certainly on attack rolls, once the players have figured out the enemies AC, deciding whether to use an AP is almost metagaming. However, it's also nearly impossible to keep people from doing this kind of stuff. I just figure that their character is keeping track of how hard it is to land a blow on the enemy during the course of the fight.
green_yawgmoth 01-28-06, 04:40 PM	I use the ECS and UA action point system in my game, and it hasn't had any negative effect on my game. Most of the time, my players forget they even have them, and one player even took the action surge (roll d8s instead of d6s) feat! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Good Agnostic 01-28-06, 05:24 PM	Our current group uses the Eberron AP system and it works out very well. Different players use them differently. I recommend always saving one for stablizing in negative HP's....
ecienavxela 01-28-06, 09:34 PM	Where can I read up on Action Points? The only one I know of is d20 Modern, and I don't think that meshes well with DnD... I could be wrong though...
imperialjunkie 01-28-06, 11:35 PM	I use them and like them a lot. I don't run Eberron but have imported some of the Eberron feats into my campaign and use a scaled down version of the UA rules. One of the best features is using them to automatically stabilize. It saves a lot of PC deaths at low levels. Some would say that doing this negates the need for the Heal skill, but it doesn't. As a player I would allow others to try to Heal me until I was at the brink of death in order to save my Action Point. It is metagaming to a degree, but it is warranted.
Nom 01-29-06, 05:16 AM	Where can I read up on Action Points? The only one I know of is d20 Modern, and I don't think that meshes well with DnD... I could be wrong though...See above:There are (at least) two sets of WotC published action point rules, one in Unearthed Arcana and one in the Eberron Campaign Setting.
Lina_Inverse 01-29-06, 05:18 AM	I love action points. Every game needs some form of drama point system to give player control to there success and failure.
Jutter 01-29-06, 05:36 AM	How is that metagaming? The player saw that his most powerful blow was deflected, so decided to put in a strong effort to get one hit through. The situation you described is no more metagaming than a party seeing that their hitpoints are low and decided to retreat. Darn, what was I thinking? Of course my given example is not metagame thinking. I'll hit my head with the gaming table a few times, maybe it'll switch on my brain. Anyway, I prefer my players not discussing a monster's AC or save DC's out loud during combat. As far as the results of an attack roll should be visible to PC's, I doubt the same goes for the fighter's will save. Next to that, the constant decision about 'should I use an action point or not' slows down combat. And in return we get these 'great action-filled moments of exceptional luck' or something. If they want luck, they should roll a natural 20 ;)
JD 01-29-06, 05:49 AM	Behold, Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm)! I've never tried them, but they look interesting.
ehrin 01-29-06, 10:40 AM	My new DM allows them, and some of the other guys in the game love them. My character has never used one yet (only second level). I just don't like the idea of a reward that I lose if i don't use it (lost at every level, get new ones at every level), a reward that is the same for every player (ie, doesn't depend on role playing or luck or skill or...), and dragging myself out of character to alter a die roll or two. Basically, i save mine for stabilizing myself if I frop below Zero hitpoints. Just my opinion.
anders 01-29-06, 11:59 AM	Action points are cool, and the only noteworthy bad side effect i've found is that pcs tend to make their saves more often, which nerfs magic users. But action points can really really save the pcs when their dice just cant seem to get above 5.
YRM 01-29-06, 12:40 PM	How have Action Points worked in your campaigns? Are they a cool idea or 'meh' or stupid. I want to know because I'm making a new Capaign and I want to use Action Pointsb ut, I wanted to find out they work right before I use them. We use a modified Action Point system in our Forgotten Realm setting. Action Points are given out for memorable events, brave acts, vivid descriptions, and great moments of role-playing. I usually give out 1 at a time. A character can only have his level in action points stored up. Action points can be used in the following ways. 1 - A point spent will stabilize a character who is bleeding to death. 2 - Up to half your level in points can be added to a d20 roll. 3 - Half your PCs level, plus one, can be spent to reroll one d20 roll before you know the result of the original roll. This is a powerful ability, but it takes a while to earn the points to pull it off, and you can only do it once because of the "half level +1" requirement. This system has encouraged role playing and vivid combat descriptions. "I swing at the orc." Has become... "I bring my axe down in an arc, trying to come over the orc's shield and bite into his shoulder." Such a description isn't an automatic action point, but, repeated efforts could yield one. Also, if a vivid description is then followed by a critical hit, the effort+luck is more likely to sway the DM. "I sweep around with a leg trip, keep spinning, and try to stun the foe with a right cross to the jaw as he's falling..." Imp. Trips... Trip attempt succeed... Natural 20 on the Stunning Fist... Stun attempt works... DM says, "Your opponent cries out as you take out the back of his knee and he begins falling, from in close, a tight, powerful right hand hits right on the sweet spot and your opponent's eyes roll up in his head and he's laying flat on his back, shaking unconsciously." Now, a sequence like that is probably worth an action point. Any time a DM acknowledges that such description is better than, "I trip the guy and punch him with a stunning attack", there's a positive reenforcement towards making the game more vibrant. Conclusion. I like action points. They do exactly what I want them to do in my campaign.