Actionpoints! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Actionpoints! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Polymorph
03-26-05, 06:23 PM Since the searchengine is down again, i'll just have to ask you guys outright.
What do you think about the "Action points" variant presented in Unearthed Arcana?

My thoughts:

o) 5+1/2 level actionpoints each level... assuming gaining a level every other session (as generally suggested) a level 10 PC would have 5 points to use every session. Isn't that way too much?

o) You can either use an action point to gain 1 AC for the duration of an encounter (improved dodge) or can cast your meteor swarm as a twinned spell? Isn't that a bit cheap?

I really consider implementing this variant to my campaign, so what do you think about it?

-Edit: fixed the name, thanks for your input so far!
Fixxxer
03-26-05, 10:50 PM I don't have an opinion, but I'd like to point out that the title of this thread is a bit misleading, as it seems like it should be a thread about psionic power points.
Dreaming_in_the_void
03-26-05, 10:58 PM I've experimented with Action Points in D&D a few times.

I handed out points for good roleplaying. All the points could do was add 1d6 to a roll. (This differs from D20 modern; you get multiple d6's as the character progresses in level.)

To be honest, even my players who play D20 Modern forgot about the points because it isn't really part of the game. Yours might be different.
SearcherOmega
03-26-05, 11:19 PM I incorporated Eberron-Style Action Points into my campaign, and it enriched it greatly. Depending on your DMing style and campaign flavor, it can either be a tremendous boon or a thorn in your side.

Just remember that you're free approve or deny any uses for action points. Anything you feel is too powerful, you can either increase the Action Point cost of, or remove as an option entirely. In my campaign, I will not allow AP to emulate a feat the character doesn't have, though I might allow them to pull off other things they normally cannot by spending AP.

I also think it's useful for dramatic situations. One of the BBEGs in the campaign is responsible for the enslavement of one of the PC's entire race; if they ever met, you can bet that this PC would oppose them with all the vigor they could possibly muster. Action Points are a great suppliment for scenes like this.

With that said, don't feel pressured to accept anything you're not comfortable with. It doesn't float everybody's boat, and I've known a few people who dislike action points in general. In the end, that's your decision.

As a side note -- my party's currently level 6, and I haven't found the number of AP to be a problem. They tend to be conservative with AP -- it would really suck to use up almost all of one's AP on the centipede swarm earlier in the day, only to face two soldiers one level above the party's 12 hours later. :devil:
PaladinSix
03-27-05, 03:12 AM One of my players is trying to convince me to add Action Points to our current game, but I'm very skeptical of the concept. He thinks it would allow his character to accomplish the occasional amazing task (which is true) and add an element of 'heroism' to the game. However, I can't help but notice that he is the only players (of five) who is pushing the concept. I think it says more about his choice of characters than anything else. But hey, it wasn't my idea that he should make a Cleric of Farlaghn (talk about tactically useless).

The problem as I see it is this: APs allow (in fact, encourage) players to attempt otherwise impossible or unwise actions, in effect 'spending' a resource to do things they otherwise could not. This seems like fun on the surface, but I have to wonder what the long-term effect might be. It seems to put the PCs on a plane far above and beyond the capabilities of NPCs, which is fun for a while, but eventually would become boring. I mean, is it really any fun to accomplish an amazing feat only because your character happened to have some APs left over, rather than because he came up with a workable plan or just got really lucky. Everything else has already been highly commoditized in this game (HPs, magic, gold, class abilities), I'm not sure we need to try to assign a figure to the number of times a PC can be 'heroic.'

In short, if what you're looking for is a cartoonish, super-hero type of game, then I think APs work well for that. However, if you want a game that rewards creative thinking and proper planning, stay away from the cop-out of Action Points.
Kainy
03-27-05, 03:57 AM Action points putting PC classes on a plane of power far greater than NPCs... sounds terrible.

Oh, no, wait, remember the section of the DMG where it talks about how PCs are supposed to be unusual, powerful, or elite? The one that suggests not overusing PC classes on random mooks, such as soldiers in an army, since it isn't how it's supposed to be?

Personally, I think that if this creates a real gulf in power between PCs and NPCs, then great. It's supposed to be there. Adventurers, going out on adventures and all, DO routinely do things that are a little crazy, or nearly impossible. And they're supposed to be able to get away with it. Thus, a mechanical device, such as APs, that allows this, or represents the limit-reaching potential of heroes and heroines, would be a good idea to me.

However, this is all conjecture. I've never played in a campaign that used action points, because most people I play with have a loose grasp on the base rules, which makes tampering with them a difficult idea.
MortalPlague
03-27-05, 06:05 AM The age old argument surfaces again...

I'd say PCs and NPCs should be about equal; there's no reason that PCs should be that much better than everybody else simply by virtue of being PCs. Some of the greatest stories are about everyday people rising up to overcome insurmountable odds, despite the fact that they're just average folk who manage to perform well in adverse circumstances. The archetypical example is the farmboy who becomes a powerful ____. Why should he start off better than everyone else?

Yes, I know. DM's choice is what it comes down to. Ultimately, whether the DM wants their PCs to be head and shoulders above everyone else or not is their choice. I'm just not one of those DMs.
Dreaming_in_the_void
03-27-05, 10:42 AM Wow. I think my NPCs are getting action points from here on out.
Salla
03-27-05, 06:18 PM I personally use an Eberron/d20 Modern hybrid, with a little tweak or two here and there.

1. Only characters with Heroic classes get Action Points. People with NPC classes (Aristocrat, Expert, Adept, etc) do not. This usually means that villains have them, but their mooks don't.

2. Action points can increase a d20 roll, increase your AC for a round, or let you use an ability with limited uses per day one more time, or automatically stabilize yourself is dying. I'm not using the 'feat booster' idea from Unearthed Arcana, though I am creating/stealing some action-point based feats, many of which require multiple Action Points (such as stealing the Second Wind ability from d20 Modern's Tough Hero and making it a feat).

3. The number of action points recieved is 3+(Charisma Mod)+(level/2). Charisma is about force of personality, self-assurance, and confidence; you have the self-confidence to pull of the incredible when you need to. This also makes Charisma less of a dump stat, something many people want.

I've never had PCs advance that quickly in a game, myself, so I'm not sure what to say about that. We're about every third session, four on low-combat story arcs. So far, the PCs do usually 'waste' a couple of Action Points, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing.
astute1
03-27-05, 07:22 PM We've been using them as-written in Eberron for a few months now. I find that they don't add a whole lot to the game, as players tend to hoard them. Still, it gives the player a really good feeling when they use one and failure suddenly becomes success.

If you use them as they are presented in Unearthed Arcana, they're a lot more powerful. You can use them in a lot more ways, some of which could be quite abusive. I'd consider seriously limiting their usefulness from that version.
allenchan
03-27-05, 08:01 PM Dont know about UA action points, but Eberron's seem pretty balanced in my experiance
Galstaf, Sorcerer of Lite
03-27-05, 08:31 PM My group was first exposed to action points in an Eberron campaign, and now, we wouldn't dream of playing without them.

Of course, we also sometimes go for entire sessions witout anyone remembering that action points exist, but still, that just means they "saved them for next session."

I actually prefer the Eberron version to the UA version, though (basically the same, except they can't be used for extra uses of abilities and feats except for feats specifically designed to be used with them). It's a little less intrusive to the standard rules.
SearcherOmega
03-27-05, 08:31 PM I personally use an Eberron/d20 Modern hybrid, with a little tweak or two here and there.
...

3. The number of action points recieved is 3+(Charisma Mod)+(level/2). Charisma is about force of personality, self-assurance, and confidence; you have the self-confidence to pull of the incredible when you need to. This also makes Charisma less of a dump stat, something many people want.

I've never had PCs advance that quickly in a game, myself, so I'm not sure what to say about that. We're about every third session, four on low-combat story arcs. So far, the PCs do usually 'waste' a couple of Action Points, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing.

Wow. Our styles seem really similar. I had even considered the CHA Mod to AP aspect. How does that turn out?
Salla
03-28-05, 02:15 AM Wow. Our styles seem really similar. I had even considered the CHA Mod to AP aspect. How does that turn out?

First, you have to convince your players that Charisma doesn't mean physical attractiveness. :D

I use point buy for stats, and so far everybody made sure they at least had a 10 Charisma ... last time I did point buy, everybody in the party but 1 character had an 8 charisma (and the guy who didn't was the bard).
Majorafire77
03-28-05, 09:48 AM I handed out points for good roleplaying.

That is an excellent idea, and it's better than experience points (which eventually leave the characters unbalanced). Thanks for the idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Polymorph 03-26-05, 06:23 PM	Since the searchengine is down again, i'll just have to ask you guys outright. What do you think about the "Action points" variant presented in Unearthed Arcana? My thoughts: o) 5+1/2 level actionpoints each level... assuming gaining a level every other session (as generally suggested) a level 10 PC would have 5 points to use every session. Isn't that way too much? o) You can either use an action point to gain 1 AC for the duration of an encounter (improved dodge) or can cast your meteor swarm as a twinned spell? Isn't that a bit cheap? I really consider implementing this variant to my campaign, so what do you think about it? -Edit: fixed the name, thanks for your input so far!
Fixxxer 03-26-05, 10:50 PM	I don't have an opinion, but I'd like to point out that the title of this thread is a bit misleading, as it seems like it should be a thread about psionic power points.
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-26-05, 10:58 PM	I've experimented with Action Points in D&D a few times. I handed out points for good roleplaying. All the points could do was add 1d6 to a roll. (This differs from D20 modern; you get multiple d6's as the character progresses in level.) To be honest, even my players who play D20 Modern forgot about the points because it isn't really part of the game. Yours might be different.
SearcherOmega 03-26-05, 11:19 PM	I incorporated Eberron-Style Action Points into my campaign, and it enriched it greatly. Depending on your DMing style and campaign flavor, it can either be a tremendous boon or a thorn in your side. Just remember that you're free approve or deny any uses for action points. Anything you feel is too powerful, you can either increase the Action Point cost of, or remove as an option entirely. In my campaign, I will not allow AP to emulate a feat the character doesn't have, though I might allow them to pull off other things they normally cannot by spending AP. I also think it's useful for dramatic situations. One of the BBEGs in the campaign is responsible for the enslavement of one of the PC's entire race; if they ever met, you can bet that this PC would oppose them with all the vigor they could possibly muster. Action Points are a great suppliment for scenes like this. With that said, don't feel pressured to accept anything you're not comfortable with. It doesn't float everybody's boat, and I've known a few people who dislike action points in general. In the end, that's your decision. As a side note -- my party's currently level 6, and I haven't found the number of AP to be a problem. They tend to be conservative with AP -- it would really suck to use up almost all of one's AP on the centipede swarm earlier in the day, only to face two soldiers one level above the party's 12 hours later. :devil:
PaladinSix 03-27-05, 03:12 AM	One of my players is trying to convince me to add Action Points to our current game, but I'm very skeptical of the concept. He thinks it would allow his character to accomplish the occasional amazing task (which is true) and add an element of 'heroism' to the game. However, I can't help but notice that he is the only players (of five) who is pushing the concept. I think it says more about his choice of characters than anything else. But hey, it wasn't my idea that he should make a Cleric of Farlaghn (talk about tactically useless). The problem as I see it is this: APs allow (in fact, encourage) players to attempt otherwise impossible or unwise actions, in effect 'spending' a resource to do things they otherwise could not. This seems like fun on the surface, but I have to wonder what the long-term effect might be. It seems to put the PCs on a plane far above and beyond the capabilities of NPCs, which is fun for a while, but eventually would become boring. I mean, is it really any fun to accomplish an amazing feat only because your character happened to have some APs left over, rather than because he came up with a workable plan or just got really lucky. Everything else has already been highly commoditized in this game (HPs, magic, gold, class abilities), I'm not sure we need to try to assign a figure to the number of times a PC can be 'heroic.' In short, if what you're looking for is a cartoonish, super-hero type of game, then I think APs work well for that. However, if you want a game that rewards creative thinking and proper planning, stay away from the cop-out of Action Points.
Kainy 03-27-05, 03:57 AM	Action points putting PC classes on a plane of power far greater than NPCs... sounds terrible. Oh, no, wait, remember the section of the DMG where it talks about how PCs are supposed to be unusual, powerful, or elite? The one that suggests not overusing PC classes on random mooks, such as soldiers in an army, since it isn't how it's supposed to be? Personally, I think that if this creates a real gulf in power between PCs and NPCs, then great. It's supposed to be there. Adventurers, going out on adventures and all, DO routinely do things that are a little crazy, or nearly impossible. And they're supposed to be able to get away with it. Thus, a mechanical device, such as APs, that allows this, or represents the limit-reaching potential of heroes and heroines, would be a good idea to me. However, this is all conjecture. I've never played in a campaign that used action points, because most people I play with have a loose grasp on the base rules, which makes tampering with them a difficult idea.
MortalPlague 03-27-05, 06:05 AM	The age old argument surfaces again... I'd say PCs and NPCs should be about equal; there's no reason that PCs should be that much better than everybody else simply by virtue of being PCs. Some of the greatest stories are about everyday people rising up to overcome insurmountable odds, despite the fact that they're just average folk who manage to perform well in adverse circumstances. The archetypical example is the farmboy who becomes a powerful ____. Why should he start off better than everyone else? Yes, I know. DM's choice is what it comes down to. Ultimately, whether the DM wants their PCs to be head and shoulders above everyone else or not is their choice. I'm just not one of those DMs.
Dreaming_in_the_void 03-27-05, 10:42 AM	Wow. I think my NPCs are getting action points from here on out.
Salla 03-27-05, 06:18 PM	I personally use an Eberron/d20 Modern hybrid, with a little tweak or two here and there. 1. Only characters with Heroic classes get Action Points. People with NPC classes (Aristocrat, Expert, Adept, etc) do not. This usually means that villains have them, but their mooks don't. 2. Action points can increase a d20 roll, increase your AC for a round, or let you use an ability with limited uses per day one more time, or automatically stabilize yourself is dying. I'm not using the 'feat booster' idea from Unearthed Arcana, though I am creating/stealing some action-point based feats, many of which require multiple Action Points (such as stealing the Second Wind ability from d20 Modern's Tough Hero and making it a feat). 3. The number of action points recieved is 3+(Charisma Mod)+(level/2). Charisma is about force of personality, self-assurance, and confidence; you have the self-confidence to pull of the incredible when you need to. This also makes Charisma less of a dump stat, something many people want. I've never had PCs advance that quickly in a game, myself, so I'm not sure what to say about that. We're about every third session, four on low-combat story arcs. So far, the PCs do usually 'waste' a couple of Action Points, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing.
astute1 03-27-05, 07:22 PM	We've been using them as-written in Eberron for a few months now. I find that they don't add a whole lot to the game, as players tend to hoard them. Still, it gives the player a really good feeling when they use one and failure suddenly becomes success. If you use them as they are presented in Unearthed Arcana, they're a lot more powerful. You can use them in a lot more ways, some of which could be quite abusive. I'd consider seriously limiting their usefulness from that version.
allenchan 03-27-05, 08:01 PM	Dont know about UA action points, but Eberron's seem pretty balanced in my experiance
Galstaf, Sorcerer of Lite 03-27-05, 08:31 PM	My group was first exposed to action points in an Eberron campaign, and now, we wouldn't dream of playing without them. Of course, we also sometimes go for entire sessions witout anyone remembering that action points exist, but still, that just means they "saved them for next session." I actually prefer the Eberron version to the UA version, though (basically the same, except they can't be used for extra uses of abilities and feats except for feats specifically designed to be used with them). It's a little less intrusive to the standard rules.
SearcherOmega 03-27-05, 08:31 PM	I personally use an Eberron/d20 Modern hybrid, with a little tweak or two here and there. ... 3. The number of action points recieved is 3+(Charisma Mod)+(level/2). Charisma is about force of personality, self-assurance, and confidence; you have the self-confidence to pull of the incredible when you need to. This also makes Charisma less of a dump stat, something many people want. I've never had PCs advance that quickly in a game, myself, so I'm not sure what to say about that. We're about every third session, four on low-combat story arcs. So far, the PCs do usually 'waste' a couple of Action Points, but I don't think that's inherently a bad thing. Wow. Our styles seem really similar. I had even considered the CHA Mod to AP aspect. How does that turn out?
Salla 03-28-05, 02:15 AM	Wow. Our styles seem really similar. I had even considered the CHA Mod to AP aspect. How does that turn out? First, you have to convince your players that Charisma doesn't mean physical attractiveness. :D I use point buy for stats, and so far everybody made sure they at least had a 10 Charisma ... last time I did point buy, everybody in the party but 1 character had an 8 charisma (and the guy who didn't was the bard).
Majorafire77 03-28-05, 09:48 AM	I handed out points for good roleplaying. That is an excellent idea, and it's better than experience points (which eventually leave the characters unbalanced). Thanks for the idea.