Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nomad16 04-05-05, 02:29 PM	I have fought with this many times in my years playin 3.0 I have 2 new players, both never played the game before. Neither of them understand combat actions. And after trying to explain it to them over and over again i have conceded that maybe they are too dumb for D&D, But both are friends and both have potential to be great players. One has a great tactical mind, the other is simply the sneakiest player i have ever seen. Does anyone have an easy way of explaining this improtant aspect of the game to a new player? I picked it up pretty easy, but i was self taught. In looking over it i am not 100% on combat actions myself anymore. I was thinking that it would be easiest to come up with a sort of a point system (you know, 5 points for a full round, standard actions are 3 points and a move is 2) naturally i cant get a system to work to save my life. Maybe i am just not smart enough to do it...anyone have any ideas on how to solve my problem?
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-05-05, 02:46 PM	"You can only do two things in a round. Only one of those things can be from this chart. (show list of attack actions) Some things take so long that you have to dedicate your whole round to them. (show list of full-round actions)" Okay?
Nomad16 04-05-05, 03:25 PM	Remember that this is 3.0, that dosnt work well, as soon as the wizard casts haste that goes out the window. Its an integrated group of newbies and old players.
Alluvian 04-05-05, 04:35 PM	It also just isn't true. There are free actions that you can do many of, there is the 5 foot step, etc... Basically there are four lists: Free actions Standard actions Move actions Full round actions 1) Do as many free actions as you want at any point in the round (unless you have a house rule that only allows X free actions per turn). 2) You can only do ONE standard action a turn, but you can use an additional move action in place of a standard action if you choose. 3) One move action per turn. See rule 2, where you can elect to do an additional move action in place of a standard action. 4) Full round action. Cannot do #2 or #3. In a round where you use a full round action you can ONLY do this action and free actions. Then it is your job as DM to populate the four lists. Players will come up with some really wild actions and you will have to determine what list they belong under. This part can be tough. I don't own the DMG but I would assume there is a list of example actions and how you determine what falls in what category. I know the PHB has some small charts for each of the four action types. I apologize if any of this is incorrect. I don't have the PHB handy and don't have the SRD open at the moment either.
Fixxxer 04-05-05, 08:11 PM	I apologize if any of this is incorrect. I don't have the PHB handy and don't have the SRD open at the moment either. It was very good, actually. The one thing I did see is that you have free actions availible at any point during the round, which isn't exactly true. Some free actions can be preformed when it isn't your turn, but most must be performed on your turn. How unbalancing would the Quickdraw feat be if you could use it on someone else's turn to quickdraw a weapon with which to perform an attack of opportunity you shouldn't have been able to get?
Fixxxer 04-05-05, 08:44 PM	http://www.dndarchive.com/yourturn Come up with a fairly comprehensive list of which actions are standard actions, which are move-equivalent actions, which are full-round actions and which are free actions. Show them this basic image as well as the list, telling them that free actions can be insterted before or after standard or move-equivalent actions. They should get it eventually.
Colmarr 04-05-05, 10:15 PM	I would go about it in reverse. Deal with "actions left" in a round rather than actions taken. None of what follows is even remotely close to RAW, but it might be useful as a method of instruction. 1. Full round action (10 points) 2. Standard action (5 points) 3. Free actions (0 points) 4. Move action (5 points) 5. Free actions (0 points) 6. Standard action (but only if you haven't already taken one) (5 points) 7. Free actions (0 points) 8. Move action (5 points) 9. Free actions. (0 points) A player starts at line 1 and chooses whether or not to take one of that type of action. They then work there way down the list choosing to take or forego each of the listed actions. When a player has accrued 10 points, they immediately jump to item 9 without passing through any of the other items. Once the player ends item 9, their turn ends. If you are playing with v3.0 haste, a player under the effect of that spell would have 15 points instead of 10.
Nomad16 04-05-05, 10:54 PM	Good suggestions all, And a ton of thanks for all who posted Seems like i am a better player than DM (dont have the patience to teach another person) Think i am going to use Colmarr's Idea, i love the idea of a point system, tried myself just couldnt get it to work (kinda dumb) and if that dosnt work looks like Fixxxer has me back
Nomad16 04-05-05, 10:55 PM	what is RAW?
Clarity 04-05-05, 11:08 PM	It doesn't sound like your players have read the combat section in the PHB. If they have read it and still don't get it after you've explained it to them step by step then....um....good luck. If they haven't read it you might insist that they do. I try to make sure I am availible for coaching or clarification but it is up to the player to do some of the legwork. We're game masters, not babysitters.
Nomad16 04-05-05, 11:18 PM	You know how many times it takes the Avg player to read that section and play with it before it makes sense? The 3.0 PHB isnt the best written book i have ever read, its misleading and vague ALOT. Even if you memorize the section it can take a good bit of practice to get it to work to your advantage. And its Difficult to make certain they all have some private time with the book when there is 1 book for 4 players (there are very little or NO 3.0 PHBs left around here, and i am the only one that spends much time on the internet). I didnt wanna whine and moan about how pitiful my group can be, i simply asked for a quick solution, and i got some from people that dont seem to have a superiority complex. Most players dont get it there first time through, its a lot of info. And its the hardest part of 3.0 to get down. All i wanted was ideas on how to make it go smothly, not comments on how gimpy my friends are.
Crimsonsun 04-06-05, 12:46 AM	Here's what I thought of. Give your players some form of weapon (cardboard tube, ruler, etc). Note that this is the PLAYERS, not the PCs. And have them stand oh say... 30 feet apart. Now, tell ONE of them that he has SIX seconds to get to the other day and bonk him. Now tell them to do that carrying 30-50lbs of stuff! :D I always found real life examples are better than trying to tell them how it works. With the one above, he was attacking at someone who wasnt defending... now have player #2 attempt to defend. Then, with them about.. 5 feet from each other, tell them they each get 2 attacks, can move about 5 feet away, and again, only 6 seconds to do this. TIME them :D Let them learn how long a round is.... :smirk:
Thoronmir 04-06-05, 01:00 AM	Good ideas here ... I may steal them for my group.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 04-06-05, 01:18 AM	Without modification, here's what I've told my players. -You can move up to your full speed and attack once. -You can take your full attack(s), with the only movement allowed being a slight adjustment of position: one hex (I use the hex system). -You can cast a spell and move up to your full speed. -You can move double your speed (or attempt to move triple, x4, or x5), but that's all you can do. -If you want to charge, you have to be within half your speed of your target and no less than 10 feet away. -You can withdraw from melee combat and move your full speed (i.e. no AoO) For example, if your speed is 6 and you're 80 feet away from your opponent, you can move up to the opponent but can't attack. If you're 60 or fewer feet away, you can move and attack once. If you're 10-30 feet away, you can charge. Say your speed is 12 and you want to cast a spell, and you're going on 2. You can move 120 feet and start casting on 5, or you can start casting on 2 and then move 120 feet once your spell is over. My house rule is that if you want to move before casting a spell, it delays your initiative by 3 segments.
Nom 04-06-05, 02:09 AM	I agree with Thomar. Start simple. Normally, you can take two actions per round. One of these can be an interesting action (like attacking, casting a spell, using a magic item), and one is a movement action (moving, drawing a weapon). We call the interesting action a "standard action" and the miscellaneous movement action a "move action". Summary: each turn, 1 standard action, 1 move action. If you want to do a lot of moving or the like, you may take a 2nd movement action in place of your standard action. Summary: each turn, 1 standard action, 1 move action, maybe some free actions. You can perform trivial activities on your turn in addition to your actions. For example, you can speak a few words, drop something you're holding, or reload a longbow. These are "free actions", because they don't take up any significant time or effort. The DM can stop you if he thinks you're doing too much for "free". Summary: each turn, 1 standard action, 1 move action, maybe some free actions. Can use your standard action to do a move action. Occasionally, you want to do something really involved, like charge an opponent, fight with two weapons, or make lots of bow attacks. In this case, you swap your standard action and move action for a "full-round action". Summary: each turn, 1 standard action and 1 move action OR 1 full round action. Maybe add some free actions. Can use your standard action to do a move action. One last trick. If you don't move (ie change squares) during your turn, you can shuffle one square. This represents incidental moving around, and is called a "5 foot step". If you use an action to move, you can't take a 5 ft. step as well. Summary: each turn, 1 standard action and 1 move action OR 1 full round action. Maybe add some free actions. Can use your standard action to do a move action.If they're fine with that, give them the table listing the various actions and their types. I'd recommend being a little more detailed, though. After each 'summary', above, run a mini-scenario to practice the action type. Standard and move actions can be easily shown by moving around a corner and casting a spell or shooting, and then by moving up to an opponent who attacks in melee and attacking, and having him run away each time (complete with AoO). Then you can show them how to use a move action to swap weapons and then continue after the bad guy. Make the bad-guy an experienced trainer if you don't want to worry about the attacks killing him too easily. As it becomes appropriate, throw in free actions, full-round actions, and the 5 ft. step. At this point, they know all they really need to know. Play a simple (maybe training) adventure without using any specials (no sunder/trip/grapple, no overrun/bull-rush, ...) to let them become comfortable, then gradually add other rules as the opportunity arises. haste, even 3.0 haste, shouldn't be a problem for some weeks or months. It's a 3rd level spell, which means they can ignore it until they reach 5th level.
Colmarr 04-06-05, 02:57 AM	RAW is Rules As Written. It means "strictly by the letter of the rules, with no house rules".