Adding class levels to monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adding class levels to monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ningel
06-08-04, 02:06 PM I'd like to send monsters with class level at my players more often. But I think it takes too long time to write up the new information about the monster. If I'm about to send 5 hobgoblins with different class levels at my players, I think this takes awfully much time to prepare. I don't really have that much time to prepare and I'd rather use more time on making cool places and interesting NPCs. I think this would do my game better. Opinions?

So, do anyone have any suggestion on how I can solve this problem? Are there any generators that can do this so that I can spare all that time?
astute1
06-08-04, 02:14 PM Hobgoblins aren't "cool npcs?" Trust me, take the time to write good NPCs for fights. It's really worth it.

However, there are some really good generators out there. I suggest using the generator written by Jamis Buck.

www.andargor.com

I've found it to be quite good, although sometimes you have to adjust the feats.
Ningel
06-08-04, 02:18 PM Originally posted by astute1
Hobgoblins aren't "cool npcs?" Trust me, take the time to write good NPCs for fights. It's really worth it.
It's cool to make a NPC different and personal, but it's boring to write up all the basic information on him.
Ningel
06-08-04, 02:33 PM That generator is nice. But what I was looking for is more advanced. If you for example have an ogre and want to add 2 fighter levels. I think it takes a bit long time to "add" these two things together to get the result: An ogre figther 2.
Shadowmagyk
06-08-04, 02:59 PM Why would it take longer to do? All you are doing is taking the standard creature and adding levels to it. It would be the same as if you were creating a multiclass character above 1st lvl. What DMs should remember about DMing is that it is more responsibility. The others rely on you to make the game fun. It is often quite a surprise, and very fun, when the DM throws an "exeptional" monster at them. It breaks the monotony of "Oh, another Ogre. Lets me hit him four times, and you cast two spells." I dont really see how one does not have time to make a character. All that is needed is one character/week. Over time, these characters can be re-used, with a few minor changes. Instead of watching your TV program, make a character. Instead of making a zillion NPCs that the PCs will never interact with, make a monster that will bash in their skull if they arent careful. It is more fun to beat up the big monster than to talk to the fat man in the corner.
PenderGrass
06-08-04, 03:42 PM I suggest not only making monsters with class levels - but also to change things like Feats on the standard monsters.

Most standard monsters are poor examples of what to throw against your PCs.

Try these:

STATS: Either roll them up or give them a +d4, all their stats are given as a base 10+their racial stat mod, they deserve better than that
HIT POINTS: Max them all - these are Racial HD and just like the PCs, their racial HD should be MAX'd (if you actually do this - make sure to add +1 CR)
FEATS: Choose REAL Feats for the monsters, Alertness is poo, take something YOU would take if you were the Monster in your game
EQUIPMENT: Dump that dumb equipment and give them something that fits your world, ideas, whatever

To add Class Levels QUICKLY - use the base NPCs out of the DMG, it gives a fair spread that you can attach to any monster you wish.

Look at this months Dragon for adding "umph" to your NPCs (actually, many of the older Dragon Mags have covered this in all sorts of ways), traits and habits all go a long way to making your Players say "wow, that was a cool encounter!"

NPCs are the breath of your world - don't let it be stinky, give them an Altoid, and don't be afraid to stir things up
Illithidbix
06-08-04, 03:45 PM A bit of a fudge, but be prepeared to "rough" the stats for NPC's (and Monsters with class levels). Theres really no point trying to get a NPC down to the last skill point and synergy bonus if all thats going to happen is that they get smacked.
D&D is a very rigid system compared to most RPG's, and the books tend to follow this, don't worry it can handle a little slack.
mercurial67
06-08-04, 04:21 PM Generally what I do for skills is I take the base skills from the MM and based on the number of skill points they get per level max out half that number and then double the other half have them at half max. Makes it simple.

So a bugbear with three levels of fighter would have the base skills for a bugbear. One of his skills would be maxed with six ranks + modifiers and two of those skills would have three ranks + modifiers. The same bugbear with three levels of rogue would have four of his skills maxed out and eight at half.
Werrwaaa
06-08-04, 06:51 PM Hard to figure an Ogre Fighter 2? Add two to hit, 10 +2con HP, +3 Fort, and pick two feats. You dont even need a book for that. How long did it take you to post this? And you dont have time to add a few numbers?
Zilred
06-08-04, 06:59 PM Originally posted by Werrwaaa
Hard to figure an Ogre Fighter 2? Add two to hit, 10 +2con HP, +3 Fort, and pick two feats. You dont even need a book for that. How long did it take you to post this? And you dont have time to add a few numbers?

Fighters are easy to do. BAB always +1/level, feat every other level and an extra at level 1. Saves are a little trickier, but don't take much.

Just try statting up a Monk or a Rogue, somthing with lots of class features or skill points; let alone something multiclassed. It isn't all that easy.
Naeron
06-09-04, 10:32 AM Originally posted by Ningel
<snip>If I'm about to send 5 hobgoblins with different class levels at my players, I think this takes awfully much time to prepare. I don't really have that much time to prepare and I'd rather use more time on making cool places and interesting NPCs. I think this would do my game better. Opinions?<snip>

Well the best solution is not to have that many encounters where every combatant has different combinations of class levels.

A huge amount of "improved" monsters will have Warrior, Fighter or Barbarian levels, for the simple reason that this a primary focus of their life. These are easy to do.

For spellcasters create some level templates with common spell choices to speed the process up. Most spellcasters who dabble in combat tend to utilise a lot of similar spells.

So 5 Hobgoblins which are 4 Hobgoblin Warrior 5's (add +1 STR, 26 HP, +5 to melee attacks, +4 to ranged attacks, +1 damage, breastplates (so +2 to AC), MW weapons (+1 to hit), 1 Feat, +2 Fort, +1 Ref and +1 Will) and 1 Hobgoblin Fighter 5 (37 HP, as above but an extra 3 fighter bonus deats) is quite easy to stat up.

Also either buy some 6*4 cards and copy improved monster stats on to them or create a folder with printed pages of improved monsters because you can get a lot of re-use.

Its OK for a lot of the monsters encoutered to have identical levels applied to them. Veteran Hobgoblin raiders are differentiated much more by equipment and attitude than by each having different combinations of class levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ningel 06-08-04, 02:06 PM	I'd like to send monsters with class level at my players more often. But I think it takes too long time to write up the new information about the monster. If I'm about to send 5 hobgoblins with different class levels at my players, I think this takes awfully much time to prepare. I don't really have that much time to prepare and I'd rather use more time on making cool places and interesting NPCs. I think this would do my game better. Opinions? So, do anyone have any suggestion on how I can solve this problem? Are there any generators that can do this so that I can spare all that time?
astute1 06-08-04, 02:14 PM	Hobgoblins aren't "cool npcs?" Trust me, take the time to write good NPCs for fights. It's really worth it. However, there are some really good generators out there. I suggest using the generator written by Jamis Buck. www.andargor.com I've found it to be quite good, although sometimes you have to adjust the feats.
Ningel 06-08-04, 02:18 PM	Originally posted by astute1 Hobgoblins aren't "cool npcs?" Trust me, take the time to write good NPCs for fights. It's really worth it. It's cool to make a NPC different and personal, but it's boring to write up all the basic information on him.
Ningel 06-08-04, 02:33 PM	That generator is nice. But what I was looking for is more advanced. If you for example have an ogre and want to add 2 fighter levels. I think it takes a bit long time to "add" these two things together to get the result: An ogre figther 2.
Shadowmagyk 06-08-04, 02:59 PM	Why would it take longer to do? All you are doing is taking the standard creature and adding levels to it. It would be the same as if you were creating a multiclass character above 1st lvl. What DMs should remember about DMing is that it is more responsibility. The others rely on you to make the game fun. It is often quite a surprise, and very fun, when the DM throws an "exeptional" monster at them. It breaks the monotony of "Oh, another Ogre. Lets me hit him four times, and you cast two spells." I dont really see how one does not have time to make a character. All that is needed is one character/week. Over time, these characters can be re-used, with a few minor changes. Instead of watching your TV program, make a character. Instead of making a zillion NPCs that the PCs will never interact with, make a monster that will bash in their skull if they arent careful. It is more fun to beat up the big monster than to talk to the fat man in the corner.
PenderGrass 06-08-04, 03:42 PM	I suggest not only making monsters with class levels - but also to change things like Feats on the standard monsters. Most standard monsters are poor examples of what to throw against your PCs. Try these: STATS: Either roll them up or give them a +d4, all their stats are given as a base 10+their racial stat mod, they deserve better than that HIT POINTS: Max them all - these are Racial HD and just like the PCs, their racial HD should be MAX'd (if you actually do this - make sure to add +1 CR) FEATS: Choose REAL Feats for the monsters, Alertness is poo, take something YOU would take if you were the Monster in your game EQUIPMENT: Dump that dumb equipment and give them something that fits your world, ideas, whatever To add Class Levels QUICKLY - use the base NPCs out of the DMG, it gives a fair spread that you can attach to any monster you wish. Look at this months Dragon for adding "umph" to your NPCs (actually, many of the older Dragon Mags have covered this in all sorts of ways), traits and habits all go a long way to making your Players say "wow, that was a cool encounter!" NPCs are the breath of your world - don't let it be stinky, give them an Altoid, and don't be afraid to stir things up
Illithidbix 06-08-04, 03:45 PM	A bit of a fudge, but be prepeared to "rough" the stats for NPC's (and Monsters with class levels). Theres really no point trying to get a NPC down to the last skill point and synergy bonus if all thats going to happen is that they get smacked. D&D is a very rigid system compared to most RPG's, and the books tend to follow this, don't worry it can handle a little slack.
mercurial67 06-08-04, 04:21 PM	Generally what I do for skills is I take the base skills from the MM and based on the number of skill points they get per level max out half that number and then double the other half have them at half max. Makes it simple. So a bugbear with three levels of fighter would have the base skills for a bugbear. One of his skills would be maxed with six ranks + modifiers and two of those skills would have three ranks + modifiers. The same bugbear with three levels of rogue would have four of his skills maxed out and eight at half.
Werrwaaa 06-08-04, 06:51 PM	Hard to figure an Ogre Fighter 2? Add two to hit, 10 +2con HP, +3 Fort, and pick two feats. You dont even need a book for that. How long did it take you to post this? And you dont have time to add a few numbers?
Zilred 06-08-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by Werrwaaa Hard to figure an Ogre Fighter 2? Add two to hit, 10 +2con HP, +3 Fort, and pick two feats. You dont even need a book for that. How long did it take you to post this? And you dont have time to add a few numbers? Fighters are easy to do. BAB always +1/level, feat every other level and an extra at level 1. Saves are a little trickier, but don't take much. Just try statting up a Monk or a Rogue, somthing with lots of class features or skill points; let alone something multiclassed. It isn't all that easy.
Naeron 06-09-04, 10:32 AM	Originally posted by Ningel <snip>If I'm about to send 5 hobgoblins with different class levels at my players, I think this takes awfully much time to prepare. I don't really have that much time to prepare and I'd rather use more time on making cool places and interesting NPCs. I think this would do my game better. Opinions?<snip> Well the best solution is not to have that many encounters where every combatant has different combinations of class levels. A huge amount of "improved" monsters will have Warrior, Fighter or Barbarian levels, for the simple reason that this a primary focus of their life. These are easy to do. For spellcasters create some level templates with common spell choices to speed the process up. Most spellcasters who dabble in combat tend to utilise a lot of similar spells. So 5 Hobgoblins which are 4 Hobgoblin Warrior 5's (add +1 STR, 26 HP, +5 to melee attacks, +4 to ranged attacks, +1 damage, breastplates (so +2 to AC), MW weapons (+1 to hit), 1 Feat, +2 Fort, +1 Ref and +1 Will) and 1 Hobgoblin Fighter 5 (37 HP, as above but an extra 3 fighter bonus deats) is quite easy to stat up. Also either buy some 6*4 cards and copy improved monster stats on to them or create a folder with printed pages of improved monsters because you can get a lot of re-use. Its OK for a lot of the monsters encoutered to have identical levels applied to them. Veteran Hobgoblin raiders are differentiated much more by equipment and attitude than by each having different combinations of class levels.