Post/Author/DateTime	Post
guru7892 09-30-06, 06:40 PM	ok, this idea is mainly to be applied to the paliden (maybe the sorcerer) who basicaly becomes unintresting after the 5th level. the idea is to give them bonus feats as the fighter. Starting at the 7th level and every three levels after (total of 5 feats gained at the 7th,10th,13th,16th and 19th) If this was applied to sorcerer they would gain meta magic feats like the wizard. the main idea is to make the paliden more intresting... (I could invent a deities Fury thing like the barbarian's rage instead, if you think thats cooler)
Roivas 09-30-06, 10:01 PM	Paladins don't have enough power? Since when? If their opponent is evil they can mop the floor with them twice as fast as a fighter of the same level. When they fight non-evil creatures they aren't quite as great but their spells, immunities, divine grace, and high HP make them an all around great choice for a melee combatant. No need to pump up their power. Sorcerors don't have enough either???? Sure they don't get as many options for spells, and are useless without out them. But a wizard who has his spell book taken away is as dangerous as a girl scout. If your sorceror lacks flavor you should consider a prestidge class, multiclassing, or a different class. A sorcerer is the least likely primary spell caster to run completely out of spells. With poor spell choices they can be worthless in certain scenarios [like golems], but they hardly need a boost because of that.
Greg K 09-30-06, 10:31 PM	Sorcerors don't have enough either???? Sure they don't get as many options for spells, and are useless without out them. But a wizard who has his spell book taken away is as dangerous as a girl scout. If your sorceror lacks flavor you should consider a prestidge class, multiclassing, or a different class. A sorcerer is the least likely primary spell caster to run completely out of spells. With poor spell choices they can be worthless in certain scenarios [like golems], but they hardly need a boost because of that. You are entitled to your opinion regarding sorcerers. However, in this is instance, I'll go with the opinion of designer Sean Reynold's that "sorcerers get the short end of the stick". You can read his opinion here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/opinions3p5chap123.html) along with his house rule to fix the problem. Just scroll down the page to sorcerers.
DarthCthulu 09-30-06, 11:14 PM	But a wizard who has his spell book taken away is as dangerous as a girl scout. I don't know, I have seen some really mean girl scouts... I think the paladin is fine. Want to help the Sorcerer? Give them Leadership as a bonus feat.
Roivas 09-30-06, 11:29 PM	I was just mentioning that they aren't underpowered. I certainly don't consider sorcerors overpowered, nor as powerful as a wizard 9 times out of 10. Most spontanious spellcasters get a shorter stick, but they have their upsides. I personally like playing sorcerors as they can bring a mystical qualitity to magic that a wizard doesn't. The leadership skill might not fit every sorceror's character concept and the core classes are designed to be as general as possible. Sorcerors might get a shorter stick than wizards, but at least they aren't favored souls.
SnowSage 10-01-06, 01:55 AM	I certainly don't consider sorcerors overpowered, nor as powerful as a wizard 9 times out of 10. You, my friend, have obviously never had a DM who would both make you prepare your spells AND hit you with ambushes. A wizard who is roleplayed well rarely prepares battle spells if they don't expect a combat, so if you are roleplaying, preparing spells, and being ambushed, then you suddenly find yourself wishing quite dearly you had played a sorcerror just the way they are.
myeviltwin 10-01-06, 02:00 AM	What sorcerers need are class features that level up with them. As it stands, familiar progression is all a sorcerer stands to lose by taking a prestige class. You probably wouldn't be out of line to give sorcerers bonus feats like a wizard, or perhaps more spread out and more versatile.
Lazzmaniandevil 10-01-06, 02:27 AM	I think the sorcerer would need something that add emphasis on their differences with wizards, especially the fact that their magic is innate rather than learned. I think something along the lines of free heritage feats (PHBII) at level 1,5,10,15,20 would make them more on par with wizards, as well as accentuating their difference with them. They could probably make some more feats to give the sorcerer more possibilities, like fey heritage feats, hag heritage feats or Limbo heritage feats. I'm sure they could easily make around 10 sorceror lineages.
SnowSage 10-01-06, 03:24 AM	I think the sorcerer would need something that add emphasis on their differences with wizards, especially the fact that their magic is innate rather than learned. I think something along the lines of free heritage feats (PHBII) at level 1,5,10,15,20 would make them more on par with wizards, as well as accentuating their difference with them. They could probably make some more feats to give the sorcerer more possibilities, like fey heritage feats, hag heritage feats or Limbo heritage feats. I'm sure they could easily make around 10 sorceror lineages. Interesting idea, except for the fact that THE FACT THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PREPARE THEIR SPELLS ALREADY MAKES THEM BETTER THAN WIZARDS. Then again, metagamers and DMs who do not enforce the preparation rules essentially make sorcerrors about as powerful as a dyslecsic retarted baby bunny. Also if you want things that set them apart from wizards, look in races of the dragon. Almost all the new spells are sorcerror only spells...
Lazzmaniandevil 10-01-06, 04:18 AM	Interesting idea, except for the fact that THE FACT THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PREPARE THEIR SPELLS ALREADY MAKES THEM BETTER THAN WIZARDS. Then again, metagamers and DMs who do not enforce the preparation rules essentially make sorcerrors about as powerful as a dyslecsic retarted baby bunny. Also if you want things that set them apart from wizards, look in races of the dragon. Almost all the new spells are sorcerror only spells... Sorcerers might be stronger than wizards in time-pressured situations, but only when they actually know the spell that can be required by the situation. If they don't know the spell, there's nothing they can do. Considering the wizard has more spells to chose from, he's more likely to know it, and he can always prepare it the next day or use an empty slot. The preparation rules also states that a wizard can leave some slots empty to fill them out later during the day. The sorceror is also one level behind in terms of "highest level of spell known" starting at 3rd level. Unless a DM always put the PCs in time-pressured situations, those things will balance themselves between sorcerors and wizards. But then the wiz has free metamagic on top of that...
SnowSage 10-01-06, 04:22 AM	Sorcerers might be stronger than wizards in time-pressured situations, but only when they actually know the spell that can be required by the situation. If they don't know the spell, there's nothing they can do. Considering the wizard has more spells to chose from, he's more likely to know it, and he can always prepare it the next day or use an empty slot. The preparation rules also states that a wizard can leave some slots empty to fill them out later during the day. The sorceror is also one level behind in terms of "highest level of spell known" starting at 3rd level. Unless a DM always put the PCs in time-pressured situations, those things will balance themselves between sorcerors and wizards. But then the wiz has free metamagic on top of that... I would like to point out that sorcerrors get more Spells per Day, and have you taken a look at the sorcerror only spells? You can pull a Wyrvern from your chest, or make your human sorcerror suddenly weild a greatclub that is doing the damage of a callossal greatclub without changing actual size, and with no penalty... and all other enchantments to the greatclub stay on it, and all this requires is one feat and a sorcerror only spell of... I believe 6th level...
Lazzmaniandevil 10-01-06, 04:52 AM	I would like to point out that sorcerrors get more Spells per Day, and have you taken a look at the sorcerror only spells? You can pull a Wyrvern from your chest, or make your human sorcerror suddenly weild a greatclub that is doing the damage of a callossal greatclub without changing actual size, and with no penalty... and all other enchantments to the greatclub stay on it, and all this requires is one feat and a sorcerror only spell of... I believe 6th level... You are right about the spells per day, but personnally, I'd rather know 5 or 6 spells and have to prepare only 2, than knowing only one and being able to cast it three times. Not everybody has Races of the dragon, but I'll give you that the wyvern spell is a bit stronger, although not too much, if you compare it to summon monster V. For a medium creature to change its weapon to colossal, it would need to use a 3rd level spell, but at a 15th caster level (1 size category +1 per 5 caster level) and unlike the wyvern thing, it's not a sorceror only spell: it's a sorceror/wizard spell.
SnowSage 10-01-06, 04:58 AM	You are right about the spells per day, but personnally, I'd rather know 5 or 6 spells and have to prepare only 2, than knowing only one and being able to cast it three times. Not everybody has Races of the dragon, but I'll give you that the wyvern spell is a bit stronger, although not too much, if you compare it to summon monster V. For a medium creature to change its weapon to colossal, it would need to use a 3rd level spell, but at a 15th caster level (1 size category +1 per 5 caster level) and unlike the wyvern thing, it's not a sorceror only spell: it's a sorceror/wizard spell. Personally, I'd rather be a one-trick pony who could use his one trick seven or eight times a day than know ten tricks and only get to use three. then again, that's why I like playing warlocks and tanks...
Drascin 10-01-06, 07:05 AM	The thing is, it is not that the pally and the sorcerer are underpowered... is that they're uninteresting past a certain level. As the OP said, paladin is one of the best dips if you can cope with the code... because the paladin gets ALL of his abilities in the first 5 levels. After level 5, the only thing you get from being a paladin is... a better horse, and a few more smites. Wheee. The sorcerer has the same exact problem: its "special features" column is totally empty. You get nothing but CL from being a sorcerer. I do think we should add things to the class... but I don't think it should be the same as wizards get. They should remain different, so we either change the wizard too or give the sorc other things (as an aside, I have always believed that metamagic should be more present with sorcerers, who, after all, feel their magic and get an innate understanding of them, so I'd incline for the first option). So, for the paladin, maybe the feats would be good (I'd say, a feat list that included some of the fighter feat list and the divine feats - the paladin is not turning undead effectively anyway). That Deity's fury thing you mention might be good too... something that allowed the paladin to call direct power from his deity when in battle. Not mindless rage like the barbarian's but righteous wrath. Yeah, I'm liking the idea... The sorcerer... that's a bit tricky, because he's a full caster, and therefore pwns everything non-caster, so he's not weak (weaker than wizard, yeah, in every non-ambush situation a wizard wins, but weaker-than-wizard does not mean weak)... so we should find features that weren't very powerful, simply useful or flavorful. Edit: Thanks for the link, Greg K. I'm liking some of the ideas in there.
wrecan 10-01-06, 07:51 AM	I also think the weakness of sorcerers is that most DMs don't bother to enforce the rules related to wizards. Most DMs I've seen don't enforce the gp requirements for maintaining spellbooks. A wizard who has "all the spells available to them" should have spent his money on almost nothing else and should thus be resource poor. A wizard who relies only on the freely inscrbed spells he gets each level should have spell selection onbarely better than a sorcerer and he doesn't get spontaneous casting! A sorcerer with equal wealth should have a variety of scrolls and a nice haversack to give him the needed spell diversity, maintains his core group of spontaneous spells and has a few potent wands for good measure. But I've noticed that many parties either don't count found spellbooks as a part of treasure, meaning the wizard gets them for free, or the DM doesn't charge the wizard for inscribing spells. It's just too much bookkeeping to run a wizard by the written rules, so the DM gives the wizard some slack. But that all occurs at the expense of the sorcerer.
SnowSage 10-01-06, 10:34 AM	Another thing that makes a sorc. better than a wizard besides the spontaneous casting and the spells per day over a wizard is the fact that they can fight... granted, they aren't the party tank, but when a wizard and a sorc. go into a cage match after expending their spells for the day, sorc. almost always wins. also, in a magic duel, assuming that both charracters were made using the same feat selection, and each had spells mainly from similar school... and one of said feats was improved counterspell, then the sorc. wins due to the fact that he doesn't have to go 'oh crap.. I didn't prepare any more transmutation spells.' or 'oh crud, I've run out of spells per day' until long after the similar level wizard.
Board_Rider 10-01-06, 11:17 AM	I also think the weakness of sorcerers is that most DMs don't bother to enforce the rules related to wizards. Most DMs I've seen don't enforce the gp requirements for maintaining spellbooks. A wizard who has "all the spells available to them" should have spent his money on almost nothing else and should thus be resource poor. A wizard who relies only on the freely inscrbed spells he gets each level should have spell selection onbarely better than a sorcerer and he doesn't get spontaneous casting! A sorcerer with equal wealth should have a variety of scrolls and a nice haversack to give him the needed spell diversity, maintains his core group of spontaneous spells and has a few potent wands for good measure. But I've noticed that many parties either don't count found spellbooks as a part of treasure, meaning the wizard gets them for free, or the DM doesn't charge the wizard for inscribing spells. It's just too much bookkeeping to run a wizard by the written rules, so the DM gives the wizard some slack. But that all occurs at the expense of the sorcerer. Bingo. I have played under a myriad of DMs who never bothered with scribe cost, spellbook costs, spellbook capacity and (in some cases) spells prepared.
Rowan_Whispercloak 10-01-06, 11:23 AM	I also think the weakness of sorcerers is that most DMs don't bother to enforce the rules related to wizards. Most DMs I've seen don't enforce the gp requirements for maintaining spellbooks. A wizard who has "all the spells available to them" should have spent his money on almost nothing else and should thus be resource poor. I have seen a DM house rule that you can scribe 1000 gp worth of spells in a day though. It was kind of nice, but not entirely game breaking. I can see that as a very good point however I have also only seen one DM play anywhere near that way and that also featured a the wizard using a broken spell point system as well. That expection aside I haven't played with anyone who didn't make sure you had A wizard who is roleplayed well rarely prepares battle spells if they don't expect a combat, so if you are roleplaying, preparing spells, and being ambushed, then you suddenly find yourself wishing quite dearly you had played a sorcerror just the way they are. That is a little more of a generalization, You could have an Evoker and I can't see that character not having mulitple "battle spells" prepared. But aside all character are different so some wizards never prepare "battle spells" without the hint of combat other may be more battle focused. I see more of a problem with if you have a "theme" for your sorcerer then it is very easy for you to be made into the weak character.