Adding magic to magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adding magic to magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thistle Rosewood
07-18-06, 05:35 PM Greetings.

I have a question, as I have never encountered this.

My party has a set of Bracers +1 with the dimension step ability 1/day

The party Wizard, wishes to add to the Bracers, turning them into a +2.
No problem in allowing him to do that, but we are having a probelm with the cost.

to me, this is bringing the bracers up to a bonus of +3, he see's it as a bonus of +2, ( essentially ignoreing the Dimension step, cause its extra ) and there fore costing him 1500, where as to me, it should be more.

so by that logic, why is sonic, or frost on a weopon or armour extra, on top of a +2 bonus. it makes no sence if wonderous items do not accumulate as well. for also, would you not be able to, really rather quickly, be able to create an atrifact, or a very powerful item, for really really cheap. when I was under the impression, you need to be quite powerful to create these kinds of things. :(

I have read the DMG, and am a tad confused in the rules.
So if anyone, can let me know how, and why, in simple terms ( smiles ) that I can understand, that would be great.

thank you very much

a very confused pixie, Miss Thistle Rosewood.
Callista
07-18-06, 05:50 PM What's to stop you from calculating the difference between your +1 dimension step bracers and the +2 dimension step bracers, and charging that?
Andrew
07-18-06, 06:17 PM The proper way to calculate this is indeed to find the difference between +1 dimension step bracers and the +2 dimension step bracers. The problem is that there are three different ways that cost can be determined.

There are "bonus equivalent" abilities, such as fortification, ghost touch, etc., all of which are the equivalent of having a bonus 1 or more higher than it really is, and the total price is determined by the effective total bonus. So the cost to improve a +1 item with a +1 bonus equivalent ability into a +2 item with a +1 bonus equivalent is the difference between a +2 item and a +3 item.

There are also "flat rate" abilities, such as energy resistence, which are just a number tacked on to the base price. Improving a +1 item with a flat rate ability to a +2 item with a flat rate ability is the difference between a +1 item and a +2 item.

Then there are specific items, like a shatterspike or plate armor of the deep, and I don't know a set rule on how to calculate improvements for these. You can either assume their special abilities are flat rate or bonus equivalent, but either way you need to reverse engineer the price of the extra features.
wrecan
07-18-06, 06:46 PM bracers of armor are not magical armor and thus you don't need to convert them into a +X cost.

Under the rules for adding abilities to new magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWondrousI tems):A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

The 1.5 cost for adding a new ability to the item was already paid when the dimension step was added onto the bacers of armor +1. All you need to do is add another +1 bonus to the existing bracers. The cost is 3,000 gp.

Your player is correct.
Cifer
07-18-06, 06:59 PM As Wrecan said, except for the fact that your player seems to have believed the +1/+2 were standard magical armor enhancement bonusses. The price difference between the old bracers (+1 for 1000 gp +D-Step for X gp) and the new version (+2 for 4000 gp +D-step for X gp) is indeed 3000 gp - which is exactly the sum the pc will have to pay.
ressurrector
07-19-06, 02:52 AM Using just the rules in the DMG (p284-285), Here's how I'd do the bracers:
Currently:
+1 armor bonus to AC (cost is bonus^2 times 1000=1000gp)
Dimension Door 1/day (4th level spell, 7th level caster / 1 per day / Use-activated / 4 x 7 x 1/5 x 2000 = 11,200 GP)
Multiple abilities on the same item, non-similar (p282): largest cost + second cost x1.5 (11,200 + 1,000x1.5=12,700 GP)

New item:
+2 armor bonus (4,000 gp)
1/day D-Door (11,200 gp)
Total: 11,200+(4000x1.5)=17,200

The price difference is 4,500gp, so the enhancement would take 2,250gp, 180xp, and 5 days. (p288 for the rules on Adding new abilities/ enhancing current abilities)

Note: the cost is actually irrelevant of the cost of the D-Door option, so long as the D-Door cost is the items highest costing property.
Shadowmagyk
07-19-06, 04:34 AM I would not say that there are multiple abilities on the same item. I believe this to mean that a wielder was hasted at the same time that he had True Seeing. I feel that this is why they give the Helm of Brilliance as an example for the "multiple abilities on same item" section. The Helm allows its wearer to cast many different spells as a special ability.

I would say that the benefit of the armor bonus does not qualify as an ability since it does not allow its wielder to do anything special.
Alynn
07-19-06, 08:19 AM Yes, the multiple abilities doesn't apply to this item (if it did then weapons with +2 enhancement with holy and flaming would be much more expenive than they are now since that is 3 different abilities). This adjustment normally applies to staves.

So as others have said you take the base price of (+2 BoA +DiSt1/day) minus the base price of (+1BoA +DiSt1/day), the only thing changins is the armor bonus, which is Bonus^2 *1000 so the DiSt1/day goes away from the upgrade price leaving (4000 - 1000 =3000) increase to the base price... Costing the character 1500gp 120xp and take him 2 days to add the enhancement to the item.
ressurrector
07-19-06, 04:23 PM Yes, the multiple abilities doesn't apply to this item (if it did then weapons with +2 enhancement with holy and flaming would be much more expenive than they are now since that is 3 different abilities). This adjustment normally applies to staves.
Weapons/armor follow different rules, they work off of effective enhancement bonuses (holy and flaming each count as a + bonus for the purpose of pricing)
The section on item pricing generally referrs to Staves, Wands, Potions, Scrolls, Rings, and mostly Wonderous Items (Such as bracers of armor)
Give me some credit here...I know and have practiced the item creation rules/guidelines.
In this case, I treated it as a Wonderous item with 2 dissimilar abilities.
(Yes a bonus to a skill, save, AC, or such counts as an ability)
One ability was standard Bracers of Armor, and the other was a standard 1/day spell effect. It's not that hard to figure out.

If you don't like to use the multiple abilities price increase, then that's fine, however the guideline is there for a reason (so the players don't just have one item holding all of their magic. Also to keep the item slots as a limitation.)
wrecan
07-19-06, 04:43 PM Resurrector is correct and I am wrong. I miscalculated the 1.5 modifier for items with multiple abilities.

This issue is explicitly dealt with in the rules:Multiple Different Abilities
Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

So the cost of bracers or armor +1 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is:
18,300 = 1.5 x (1,000 + (4x7x.2x2000))

The cost of bracers of armor +2 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is:
22,800 = 1.5 x (4,000 + (4x7x.2x2000))

The cost of upgrading the item: 4,500 gp = 22,800 - 18,300
Alynn
07-19-06, 05:20 PM Hrm I stand corrected as well, has never come up in any of my games...
TheVatican
07-19-06, 05:26 PM If he is a mage why is he increasing the armor bonus? He should be using the armor spell, he will get a +4 to AC, as it is now, he is now, if not, he is sufferring -3 to AC whihc he should not do. The only reason he should have the bracers right now is so that he can Dimension door, he should not be using the bracers as a +1 to AC and should not improve that unless he wants to raise the bracers to +4 or higher and save himself a 1st level spell a day. Have him invest in something else untill he can make the bracers +4 or higher.

The armor bonus from the bracers will not stack with the armor spell.
Shadowmagyk
07-19-06, 09:49 PM I knew that to be the case. I just dont like that rule, so I expressed my opinion of what I do for items like that. I guess that I should have been more clear in my original post.
ressurrector
07-19-06, 10:20 PM So the cost of bracers or armor +1 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is:
18,300 = 1.5 x (1,000 + (4x7x.2x2000))

The cost of bracers of armor +2 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is:
22,800 = 1.5 x (4,000 + (4x7x.2x2000))

The cost of upgrading the item: 4,500 gp = 22,800 - 18,300

Just FYI, you add the extra 50% cost on all abilities other than the most costly.
So, you don't have to multiply the highest priced ability, just all the other ones.

Otherwise, everything is correct. :D
Thistle Rosewood
07-21-06, 01:35 AM Thank you

to all who posted.
I appreciate all the help you have offered me.
and it has helped bunches.

I had calculated just under 5000 to upgrade, so I wasnt that far off. Cant tell you how I got that though, smiles

again, thanks for all he help, not just with this on. ;)
Bart
07-21-06, 05:00 AM Just FYI, you add the extra 50% cost on all abilities other than the most costly.
So, you don't have to multiply the highest priced ability, just all the other ones.

Otherwise, everything is correct. :DIn a previous post, you refer to DMG p282 for the 50% rule. I pretty much agree with what you say, but where does it say that it is the cost of the most expensive ability that is not increased? I read "... each additional power ... has a 50% increase in price" as referring to each additional power beyond the first power of the item, meaning that the price depends on which power (armor or dimension door) was added first. Am I wrong, and if so: Where is the rule?
Cifer
07-21-06, 08:48 AM Well, there are two prices that would work here, since indeed nothing has been said which one of the abilities is the primary one.

If we go from a bracer of armor+1 (1000 gp) and add the D-step (4x7x.2x2000*1.5=16800), then add the armor+2, we get a price difference of 3000 gp. The other way around would indeed be 4500.
ressurrector
07-21-06, 11:40 AM In a previous post, you refer to DMG p282 for the 50% rule. I pretty much agree with what you say, but where does it say that it is the cost of the most expensive ability that is not increased? I read "... each additional power ... has a 50% increase in price" as referring to each additional power beyond the first power of the item, meaning that the price depends on which power (armor or dimension door) was added first. Am I wrong, and if so: Where is the rule?
Actually (strictly by RAW), it does depend on what enhancement you concider to be added "first" however for any unspecified item, or when creating an item all in one go, it's better to assume that the most expencive property was added first.

This is also one of those areas where a bit of common sense seems like a good idea: if you have one ability costing 20k, and another costing 4k, by the rules the item could cost either 34k or 26k, however for worth would generally be the lower value, since a similar item would be based on the lower cost if made new.

It also gets kind of complicated if you have bracers of armor +1, add on the D-Door ability, then enhance the +1 into a +2.
Would you calculate the armor as first ability? Would you calculate it as an add on since it was just added onto? (you might come up with a lower cost after enhancing then)

As a houserule, I generally calculate magic item values and add-on values using the lowest prices for each state, regardless of which ability was added first.
Bart
07-21-06, 12:27 PM Yes, that's what I prefer as well. I was just wondering if it was written as a rule somewhere :)
ressurrector
07-22-06, 12:50 AM Yes, that's what I prefer as well. I was just wondering if it was written as a rule somewhere :)
It was in 3rd ed, but that little bit of text seems to have been removed.

Though they did leave the "most costly ability" text in the similar abilities price reduction text...dang...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thistle Rosewood 07-18-06, 05:35 PM	Greetings. I have a question, as I have never encountered this. My party has a set of Bracers +1 with the dimension step ability 1/day The party Wizard, wishes to add to the Bracers, turning them into a +2. No problem in allowing him to do that, but we are having a probelm with the cost. to me, this is bringing the bracers up to a bonus of +3, he see's it as a bonus of +2, ( essentially ignoreing the Dimension step, cause its extra ) and there fore costing him 1500, where as to me, it should be more. so by that logic, why is sonic, or frost on a weopon or armour extra, on top of a +2 bonus. it makes no sence if wonderous items do not accumulate as well. for also, would you not be able to, really rather quickly, be able to create an atrifact, or a very powerful item, for really really cheap. when I was under the impression, you need to be quite powerful to create these kinds of things. :( I have read the DMG, and am a tad confused in the rules. So if anyone, can let me know how, and why, in simple terms ( smiles ) that I can understand, that would be great. thank you very much a very confused pixie, Miss Thistle Rosewood.
Callista 07-18-06, 05:50 PM	What's to stop you from calculating the difference between your +1 dimension step bracers and the +2 dimension step bracers, and charging that?
Andrew 07-18-06, 06:17 PM	The proper way to calculate this is indeed to find the difference between +1 dimension step bracers and the +2 dimension step bracers. The problem is that there are three different ways that cost can be determined. There are "bonus equivalent" abilities, such as fortification, ghost touch, etc., all of which are the equivalent of having a bonus 1 or more higher than it really is, and the total price is determined by the effective total bonus. So the cost to improve a +1 item with a +1 bonus equivalent ability into a +2 item with a +1 bonus equivalent is the difference between a +2 item and a +3 item. There are also "flat rate" abilities, such as energy resistence, which are just a number tacked on to the base price. Improving a +1 item with a flat rate ability to a +2 item with a flat rate ability is the difference between a +1 item and a +2 item. Then there are specific items, like a shatterspike or plate armor of the deep, and I don't know a set rule on how to calculate improvements for these. You can either assume their special abilities are flat rate or bonus equivalent, but either way you need to reverse engineer the price of the extra features.
wrecan 07-18-06, 06:46 PM	bracers of armor are not magical armor and thus you don't need to convert them into a +X cost. Under the rules for adding abilities to new magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWondrousI tems):A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword. If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5. The 1.5 cost for adding a new ability to the item was already paid when the dimension step was added onto the bacers of armor +1. All you need to do is add another +1 bonus to the existing bracers. The cost is 3,000 gp. Your player is correct.
Cifer 07-18-06, 06:59 PM	As Wrecan said, except for the fact that your player seems to have believed the +1/+2 were standard magical armor enhancement bonusses. The price difference between the old bracers (+1 for 1000 gp +D-Step for X gp) and the new version (+2 for 4000 gp +D-step for X gp) is indeed 3000 gp - which is exactly the sum the pc will have to pay.
ressurrector 07-19-06, 02:52 AM	Using just the rules in the DMG (p284-285), Here's how I'd do the bracers: Currently: +1 armor bonus to AC (cost is bonus^2 times 1000=1000gp) Dimension Door 1/day (4th level spell, 7th level caster / 1 per day / Use-activated / 4 x 7 x 1/5 x 2000 = 11,200 GP) Multiple abilities on the same item, non-similar (p282): largest cost + second cost x1.5 (11,200 + 1,000x1.5=12,700 GP) New item: +2 armor bonus (4,000 gp) 1/day D-Door (11,200 gp) Total: 11,200+(4000x1.5)=17,200 The price difference is 4,500gp, so the enhancement would take 2,250gp, 180xp, and 5 days. (p288 for the rules on Adding new abilities/ enhancing current abilities) Note: the cost is actually irrelevant of the cost of the D-Door option, so long as the D-Door cost is the items highest costing property.
Shadowmagyk 07-19-06, 04:34 AM	I would not say that there are multiple abilities on the same item. I believe this to mean that a wielder was hasted at the same time that he had True Seeing. I feel that this is why they give the Helm of Brilliance as an example for the "multiple abilities on same item" section. The Helm allows its wearer to cast many different spells as a special ability. I would say that the benefit of the armor bonus does not qualify as an ability since it does not allow its wielder to do anything special.
Alynn 07-19-06, 08:19 AM	Yes, the multiple abilities doesn't apply to this item (if it did then weapons with +2 enhancement with holy and flaming would be much more expenive than they are now since that is 3 different abilities). This adjustment normally applies to staves. So as others have said you take the base price of (+2 BoA +DiSt1/day) minus the base price of (+1BoA +DiSt1/day), the only thing changins is the armor bonus, which is Bonus^2 *1000 so the DiSt1/day goes away from the upgrade price leaving (4000 - 1000 =3000) increase to the base price... Costing the character 1500gp 120xp and take him 2 days to add the enhancement to the item.
ressurrector 07-19-06, 04:23 PM	Yes, the multiple abilities doesn't apply to this item (if it did then weapons with +2 enhancement with holy and flaming would be much more expenive than they are now since that is 3 different abilities). This adjustment normally applies to staves. Weapons/armor follow different rules, they work off of effective enhancement bonuses (holy and flaming each count as a + bonus for the purpose of pricing) The section on item pricing generally referrs to Staves, Wands, Potions, Scrolls, Rings, and mostly Wonderous Items (Such as bracers of armor) Give me some credit here...I know and have practiced the item creation rules/guidelines. In this case, I treated it as a Wonderous item with 2 dissimilar abilities. (Yes a bonus to a skill, save, AC, or such counts as an ability) One ability was standard Bracers of Armor, and the other was a standard 1/day spell effect. It's not that hard to figure out. If you don't like to use the multiple abilities price increase, then that's fine, however the guideline is there for a reason (so the players don't just have one item holding all of their magic. Also to keep the item slots as a limitation.)
wrecan 07-19-06, 04:43 PM	Resurrector is correct and I am wrong. I miscalculated the 1.5 modifier for items with multiple abilities. This issue is explicitly dealt with in the rules:Multiple Different Abilities Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. So the cost of bracers or armor +1 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is: 18,300 = 1.5 x (1,000 + (4x7x.2x2000)) The cost of bracers of armor +2 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is: 22,800 = 1.5 x (4,000 + (4x7x.2x2000)) The cost of upgrading the item: 4,500 gp = 22,800 - 18,300
Alynn 07-19-06, 05:20 PM	Hrm I stand corrected as well, has never come up in any of my games...
TheVatican 07-19-06, 05:26 PM	If he is a mage why is he increasing the armor bonus? He should be using the armor spell, he will get a +4 to AC, as it is now, he is now, if not, he is sufferring -3 to AC whihc he should not do. The only reason he should have the bracers right now is so that he can Dimension door, he should not be using the bracers as a +1 to AC and should not improve that unless he wants to raise the bracers to +4 or higher and save himself a 1st level spell a day. Have him invest in something else untill he can make the bracers +4 or higher. The armor bonus from the bracers will not stack with the armor spell.
Shadowmagyk 07-19-06, 09:49 PM	I knew that to be the case. I just dont like that rule, so I expressed my opinion of what I do for items like that. I guess that I should have been more clear in my original post.
ressurrector 07-19-06, 10:20 PM	So the cost of bracers or armor +1 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is: 18,300 = 1.5 x (1,000 + (4x7x.2x2000)) The cost of bracers of armor +2 with use-activiated dimension door (SL 4, CL 7) 1/day is: 22,800 = 1.5 x (4,000 + (4x7x.2x2000)) The cost of upgrading the item: 4,500 gp = 22,800 - 18,300 Just FYI, you add the extra 50% cost on all abilities other than the most costly. So, you don't have to multiply the highest priced ability, just all the other ones. Otherwise, everything is correct. :D
Thistle Rosewood 07-21-06, 01:35 AM	Thank you to all who posted. I appreciate all the help you have offered me. and it has helped bunches. I had calculated just under 5000 to upgrade, so I wasnt that far off. Cant tell you how I got that though, smiles again, thanks for all he help, not just with this on. ;)
Bart 07-21-06, 05:00 AM	Just FYI, you add the extra 50% cost on all abilities other than the most costly. So, you don't have to multiply the highest priced ability, just all the other ones. Otherwise, everything is correct. :DIn a previous post, you refer to DMG p282 for the 50% rule. I pretty much agree with what you say, but where does it say that it is the cost of the most expensive ability that is not increased? I read "... each additional power ... has a 50% increase in price" as referring to each additional power beyond the first power of the item, meaning that the price depends on which power (armor or dimension door) was added first. Am I wrong, and if so: Where is the rule?
Cifer 07-21-06, 08:48 AM	Well, there are two prices that would work here, since indeed nothing has been said which one of the abilities is the primary one. If we go from a bracer of armor+1 (1000 gp) and add the D-step (4x7x.2x2000*1.5=16800), then add the armor+2, we get a price difference of 3000 gp. The other way around would indeed be 4500.
ressurrector 07-21-06, 11:40 AM	In a previous post, you refer to DMG p282 for the 50% rule. I pretty much agree with what you say, but where does it say that it is the cost of the most expensive ability that is not increased? I read "... each additional power ... has a 50% increase in price" as referring to each additional power beyond the first power of the item, meaning that the price depends on which power (armor or dimension door) was added first. Am I wrong, and if so: Where is the rule? Actually (strictly by RAW), it does depend on what enhancement you concider to be added "first" however for any unspecified item, or when creating an item all in one go, it's better to assume that the most expencive property was added first. This is also one of those areas where a bit of common sense seems like a good idea: if you have one ability costing 20k, and another costing 4k, by the rules the item could cost either 34k or 26k, however for worth would generally be the lower value, since a similar item would be based on the lower cost if made new. It also gets kind of complicated if you have bracers of armor +1, add on the D-Door ability, then enhance the +1 into a +2. Would you calculate the armor as first ability? Would you calculate it as an add on since it was just added onto? (you might come up with a lower cost after enhancing then) As a houserule, I generally calculate magic item values and add-on values using the lowest prices for each state, regardless of which ability was added first.
Bart 07-21-06, 12:27 PM	Yes, that's what I prefer as well. I was just wondering if it was written as a rule somewhere :)
ressurrector 07-22-06, 12:50 AM	Yes, that's what I prefer as well. I was just wondering if it was written as a rule somewhere :) It was in 3rd ed, but that little bit of text seems to have been removed. Though they did leave the "most costly ability" text in the similar abilities price reduction text...dang...