Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cpn_creepo 08-04-06, 04:45 PM	One of my PCS wants to play a charector who is ADHD, and I was wondering what kinds of bonuses/negatives he should get, other than a penalty for concentration checks. Any help would be appreciated.
Khan2000 08-04-06, 05:07 PM	I'd suggest to the player that he/she play a kender. If a kender isn't the epitomy of ADHD, I don't know what is. :cool:
necrom99 08-04-06, 05:10 PM	not to sound rude....but I know a fair amount of Psychologists who would argue that ADHD is a common misconception dealing with hyperactivity which is in fact quite normal.....what i would do is simply apply a penalty to int and wis.....its more a type of laziness than a treatable mental disorder... so you'd rather be outside playing soccer than reading a book.....in a medeval-ish setting, it probably just means he wont be a Wizard or a monk or a bard, or even a sorc......tell ya the truth i wouldn't even place a negative...just dissalow him from taking any feats or skills that require lots of time spent learning...
techwarrior 08-04-06, 05:20 PM	well I already have ADHD so role-playing my character to have that is kind of like an automatic thing no role-playing required! No one likes to play with me though since I never seem to keep track of whats going on. DM: Hello? hello are you hearing me? wake up over there? my character: wakes up from daydreaming. huh? someone talking to me? whats going on? where are we? this really isn't ADHD I don't know what you call it. prone to spontanous, uncontrollable daydreaming, mind wandering syndrome :D
kaeso 08-04-06, 05:24 PM	oh I'm sure they have spells that can help with that sort of thing.
CPAtheFat 08-04-06, 05:27 PM	Just treat it as a role-playing quirk, rather than a game mechanic adjustment.
Paxar 08-04-06, 05:29 PM	Actually, ADHD is a treatable mental disorder. And I almost choked when you called it laziness. Yes, hyperactivity in children is normal, ADHD goes beyond that. The problem is that doctors are over-diagnosing it (some of them being pediatricians who aren't trained in psychology). So, there are kids with normal hyperactivity that have been diagnosed with ADHD, but that doesn't mean that true ADHD doesn't exist. It does, I'm doing my dissertation on a new way to treat it. That being said, penalties to int and wis wouldn't be appropriate, children with ADHD may show poor grades, but it's not a result of poor intelligence, just poor concentration. Especially in adults, the more hyperactive behaviors tend to mellow out (though some of this could still pop up). The lack of focus will still be evident. I would apply a penalty to concentration, and make sure he role-plays it. His mind will probably wander a lot when the BBEG is giving his pre-fight monologue and such. Also, he probably won't be able to handle long instructions.
necrom99 08-04-06, 05:30 PM	well I already have ADHD so role-playing my character to have that is kind of like an automatic thing no role-playing required! No one likes to play with me though since I never seem to keep track of whats going on. DM: Hello? hello are you hearing me? wake up over there? my character: wakes up from daydreaming. huh? someone talking to me? whats going on? where are we? this really isn't ADHD I don't know what you call it. prone to spontanous, uncontrollable daydreaming, mind wandering syndrome :D Actually Techy what you have is a syndrome where you find your own daydreams more fun than even say....real life. you should try your hand at DM'ing yoou'd probably be killer at it......if you could keep yourself together enough to follow your daydreams to there conclusion. Ahem*.....control, control...you must learn control!
necrom99 08-04-06, 05:35 PM	Actually, ADHD is a treatable mental disorder. And I almost choked when you called it laziness. Yes, hyperactivity in children is normal, ADHD goes beyond that. The problem is that doctors are over-diagnosing it (some of them being pediatricians who aren't trained in psychology). So, there are kids with normal hyperactivity that have been diagnosed with ADHD, but that doesn't mean that true ADHD doesn't exist. It does, I'm doing my dissertation on a new way to treat it. Paxar I meant no disrespect, however; I still insist that it is not a mental disorder....although it is treatable. ADHD has yet to be proven outside of pschology....there doesn't appear to be any biological proof for it, including brain wave patters, I can't remember the name but the ones you get from KAT scans......so again i must insist that you only limit his choices rather than actually give him/her a penalty.
Paxar 08-04-06, 05:36 PM	There is an ADHD, Predominantly Inattentive Type which is marked by distraction, forgetfulness, sustaining attention, and day-dreaming behaviors without the hyperactivity. I'm not saying you have it, but I want to clear this up. Necrom99, I know you know a few psychologists, but unless you've thoroughly researched the topic yourself, please don't post this kind of information as if it was fact.
egodefluo 08-04-06, 05:37 PM	One of my PCS wants to play a charector who is ADHD, and I was wondering what kinds of bonuses/negatives he should get, other than a penalty for concentration checks. Any help would be appreciated. I would agree that it's something that you should just roleplay and not give pros/cons to, but if you insist maybe a -2 to concentration checks but a +1 to initiative? They'd be poor at focusing and easily distracted but they'd always be ready for something new to happen. Or possibly -1 to int (or maybe wis) and +1 to cha. I always find ADHD people kind of charming; that might just be me though. :-)
Paxar 08-04-06, 05:38 PM	Paxar I meant no disrespect, however; I still insist that it is not a mental disorder....although it is treatable. ADHD has yet to be proven outside of pschology....there doesn't appear to be any biological proof for it, including brain wave patters, I can't remember the name but the ones you get from KAT scans......so again i must insist that you only limit his choices rather than actually give him/her a penalty. If there was biological proof it would be a medical disorder not a mental one. That's what psychology is for. The fact that the behavior is there and it creates disturbance is sufficient to call it a mental disorder.
necrom99 08-04-06, 05:40 PM	Again I appologize....however, I do have it.....Extensively....and i have intimate knowledge of the afformentioned "disorder" which is why I bring it up. I was lucky enough to come to an understanding of it. and thus, why I give my humble opinion on the matter, appologies if it sounds so black and white when I discuss it, but that is not the point of this post.....if you like you can chalk it up to opinion.....however I do not believe that to be the case......
Bruunwald 08-04-06, 05:42 PM	Yeah, it's way overdiagnosed. Practically all of our friends who have kids know somebody who was "diagnosed" as such (or have kids who were), and so they all tried to tell us our kid was. Thankfully, we have a good and thoughtful pediatrician, who told us pretty much what we already felt was true: we just have a super-active little boy with tons of energy to spare. But from a game-mechanic point-of-view, I wonder, how would this affect the Alertness feat? Think about it: Would the ADHD character be hyper-alert (and thus qualify as normal for the feat), due to being easily distracted by (and attracted to) the next new thing? Or would he be barred from taking it, from being too distracted by various stimuli to be alert? Or would it depend on the case? Just curious. Maybe Paxar has an opinion on this, being learned?
Paxar 08-04-06, 05:51 PM	That's an interesting thought Bruunwald. I think it would depend on what type of ADHD he's going for. In many cases, it causes a lack of attention to detail, but at the same time (as you said) there are those that are easily distracted by the smallest stimulus. So maybe, a penalty on search checks, and give him the alertness feat. Also, you may want to restrict alignment choices so that he can't be lawful, I couldn't see an ADHD person being that organized. If you want, you could give a percent chance every once in a while for him to lose some item he was carrying. Maybe, if he was lighting a torch with some flint and steel for instance, he would have a chance to set the flint and steel down and leave it.
Kursk 08-04-06, 06:26 PM	Actually, ADHD is a treatable mental disorder. Yeah, just pump the PC full of amphetamines like they do in real life. :rolleyes:
Deacon Liadon 08-04-06, 06:35 PM	Hmm, this looks like and interesting Ooh Shiny! ... ... ... Perhaps an inability for the character to take 20 on checks to represent the inability to concentrate on one thing for the time necessary?
Paxar 08-04-06, 06:54 PM	Yeah, just pump the PC full of amphetamines like they do in real life. :rolleyes: There are many treatments other than medication.
Kursk 08-04-06, 06:58 PM	There are many treatments other than medication. I'm just referrreing to the most prevalent "cure" used.
cpn_creepo 08-04-06, 11:49 PM	Hey, thanks for all the input. I've thought over everyones replies and thoughts, and I've decided to make the disorder be mostly a roleplaying one, other than a penalty to concentration checks and the inability to take ten and twenty. Although some may disagree, I think this will suite my style of game better, and to make up for an inbalance of a PC such as this, I think I'll just hook him up with a magic item. :P
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-05-06, 12:40 AM	As a person who has ADHD and plays D&D... Oh, that's what I was going to say. Roleplay it because there's no reason to make rules for it. :rolleyes: Though it doesn't make sense to impose a penalty to Concentration checks. I actually focus better than most people, I just have trouble focusing on things I consider less interesting. You know, things like social cues, peoples' emotions, things I think are boring, unimportant things like that. I made up for it by dumping all my skill points last level into Sense Motive, it got really annoying being so gullible so I finally did something about it (no seriously, this is the only way I can explain it, unless I increased by Wisdom to give myself a nonnegative modifier, and apparently doctors aren't able to diagnose me with ADHD anymore even though I can tell I still have it). Anyways, the way I see it most disabilities are simply ways of classifying low ability scores. ADHD means you have a low Wisdom. A low Strength means you're crippled, a low Dexterity means you've got a degenerative disorder, and so on. I heard a guy explain a Dexterity 1 Dwarf as having a torn ACL. Be creative people, Wizards has been spoiling you with splatbooks and magazines full of templates and feats for things that used to be roleplayed.
FeceMan 08-05-06, 12:41 AM	One of my PCS wants to play a charector who is ADHD, and I was wondering what kinds of bonuses/negatives he should get, other than a penalty for concentration checks. Any help would be appreciated. None. That's all roleplay "fluff" stuff. You don't need to give bonuses or penalties. Cripes.
Bob Loblaw 08-05-06, 01:33 AM	Paxar I meant no disrespect, however; I still insist that it is not a mental disorder....although it is treatable. ADHD has yet to be proven outside of pschology....there doesn't appear to be any biological proof for it, including brain wave patters, I can't remember the name but the ones you get from KAT scans......so again i must insist that you only limit his choices rather than actually give him/her a penalty. For more information check out: http://add.about.com/cs/othertreatment/a/inattentive.htm http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392460&cat=1_5 http://www.adhd-report.com/biopsychiatry/bio_16.html http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/adhdmirror.cfm And there are plenty more. There is something definately something physiological happening.
DarknessEternal 08-05-06, 02:24 AM	If there was biological proof it would be a medical disorder not a mental one. Every mental disorder does have biological effects and causes. Every one. If it did not, then it is not truly a problem and is, as pointed out, laziness.
OravennasBrother 08-05-06, 03:27 AM	When I was in grade school the catch term was Dyslexia. Any kid with behavior problems was OBVIOUSLY dyslexic, because no student is ever slow or bratty and no parent could prevent a purely physical problem with the eyes..... Now Dyslexia is an actual problem that a VERY few kids have. But not the one to three per classroom who were diagnosed dyslexic. ADHD - new buzzword, same institutional behavior - avoidance of resposibility for poorly disciplined children by assigning a catchy medical term to excuse the problem.
Bob Loblaw 08-05-06, 10:05 AM	When I was in grade school the catch term was Dyslexia. Any kid with behavior problems was OBVIOUSLY dyslexic, because no student is ever slow or bratty and no parent could prevent a purely physical problem with the eyes..... Now Dyslexia is an actual problem that a VERY few kids have. But not the one to three per classroom who were diagnosed dyslexic. ADHD - new buzzword, same institutional behavior - avoidance of resposibility for poorly disciplined children by assigning a catchy medical term to excuse the problem. While that may be the case with some, that doesn't mean that it is the case with all. I work in a pharmacy and I get to see enough people who have been diagnosed with ADHD. I can tell you that some of the kids do have something different going on in their heads. If the parents have 3 kids, and only 1 is having the problems, it is likely that something else is going on besides "bad parenting." ADHD is very real. I do think that it is overdiagnosed, but that doesn't mean that we should discount the real cases.
Paxar 08-05-06, 01:27 PM	Every mental disorder does have biological effects and causes. Every one. If it did not, then it is not truly a problem and is, as pointed out, laziness. I'm sorry Darkness, this simply is not true. There are many disorders that have absolutely no biological etiology, and calling it laziness can harm people which is why I've been opposing it.
Rancorous_Fool 08-05-06, 02:05 PM	I can attest to ADHD being real. I'm 18 and after two years of dealing with ADHD in college, (yeah started when I was 16, I'm ADHD not stupid) there is no doubt in my mind. Now, what I have read, is that there is some biological basis within the recepters for a certain hormone used to transmit "focus" which is very close to sarotonin which transmits happiness. The name of this escapes me right now. The two interact on a similar basis in the brain and often interact. This does not cause depression, it simply makes it easier. But, the confusing and often disparaged condition of being ADHD combined with the natural inclination of a medicaly, truely ADHD person towards depression can create mood swings that match the degree of controll the person has over their own ability to focus. In short: ADHD is real and is much more complex than most people believe. ADHD does not necesarily mean being distracted by everything. That is half of it. The other half is hyperfocus. That is when you lose controll over your focus and it zooms in. You focus on one thing and you find it very hard, sometimes impossible to choose to focus on somethign else. That lazy ADHD person sat there and played Counterstrike for 14 hours, wtf. How is that possible? He must be lazy! No, its hyperfocus. rants over If you want mechanic, give a penalty to concentration, craft, profession, spellcraft for copying wizard spells. Spot and listen ar class skills , a bonus to spot, listen, and 1 more skill rank per level. Adventuring is actually not a bad choice for an ADHD person. Adrenaline naturally helps with focus and attention. An ADHD adventurer would be an asset in a tense situation, where they come into controll of their full faculties, but the rest of the time they are distracted or acting odd.
DarknessEternal 08-06-06, 03:40 AM	I'm sorry Darkness, this simply is not true. There are many disorders that have absolutely no biological etiology, Please provide any shred of evidence to support your position.
Pegasos989 08-06-06, 08:49 AM	I have a friend with ADHD and would say that he would get no bonuses or negatives to anything. In case you do want to do that, I might suggest to give him negatives in concentration, knowledges (he never got the patience to study), etc. and bonuses against sleep effects and the like.
Horatio Hornblower 08-06-06, 10:07 AM	I think the best way to handle ADHD is in roleplay and how the player creates the character. Pick a class that doesn't require a lot of study. No levels in wizard. A sorcerer with ADHD could be interesting. Also don't pick skills or feats that wouldn't fit the concept. No need for new rules, just some reasonable restrictions. When I was in grade school the catch term was Dyslexia. Any kid with behavior problems was OBVIOUSLY dyslexic, because no student is ever slow or bratty and no parent could prevent a purely physical problem with the eyes..... Now Dyslexia is an actual problem that a VERY few kids have. But not the one to three per classroom who were diagnosed dyslexic. ADHD - new buzzword, same institutional behavior - avoidance of resposibility for poorly disciplined children by assigning a catchy medical term to excuse the problem. When I was a kid, back when the big lizards roamed the Earth, we had kids with behavior problems, but not nearly as many as we have today. A small fraction as many. ADHD and dyslexia are real disorders. The vast number of children diagnosed with ADHD today is alarming. My problem with all this is that either a lot of children are being misdiagnosed as ADHD or we have a big social/medical crisis on our hands because we didn't have this problem 30 years ago.
Bob Loblaw 08-06-06, 11:28 AM	I'm sorry Darkness, this simply is not true. There are many disorders that have absolutely no biological etiology, and calling it laziness can harm people which is why I've been opposing it. I just did a 5 minute search for a variety of mental disorders (listed at NIMH) and was able to find that every one that they were able to do brain scans for showed that something wasn't working the same way as a "normal" person's brain. They don't always know what is or isn't happening, but something is happening. Also, consider that medication can work for all disorders (not saying that every person with the disorder can benefit from medication, but every disorder can be affected by medication). Medication affects the body in a variety of ways, but it does change how the chemicals in the body work. It may turn some receptors off. It may activate some others. It may enhance or reduce others. In all cases, it does something. The only way it can have any positive effect is if it is doing something. Since mental disorders take place with the brain, these chemicals must affect the brain somehow.
Paxar 08-06-06, 12:49 PM	I just did a 5 minute search for a variety of mental disorders (listed at NIMH) and was able to find that every one that they were able to do brain scans for showed that something wasn't working the same way as a "normal" person's brain. They don't always know what is or isn't happening, but something is happening. Also, consider that medication can work for all disorders (not saying that every person with the disorder can benefit from medication, but every disorder can be affected by medication). Medication affects the body in a variety of ways, but it does change how the chemicals in the body work. It may turn some receptors off. It may activate some others. It may enhance or reduce others. In all cases, it does something. The only way it can have any positive effect is if it is doing something. Since mental disorders take place with the brain, these chemicals must affect the brain somehow. Note: I didn't say that they don't have biological effects, but not all of them have biological causes. Things like Facticious Disorder, PTSD, various personality disorders, and somatoform disorders have multiple effects on a person's physiology, but the cause can't be said to be biological.