adivce on new campaing [Archive] - Wizards Community

adivce on new campaing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ravage_john
07-18-07, 03:55 AM up in till now we have been a bash in the door group that spent 95% of the time in a dungen. it was like theres a problum the dngen id the solution and look your magically in the dungen. we have been slowly moving away from this and are ready to make the big leap in to a year long full detail campaing. this is my package and I wanted to know what you guys think before I present it to the players.

I would also love any general advice you guys could give me

My primary goal is to make the players think of stratigies and develop connections with their characters.

We will be begining in the weastern heartlands.

we will be starting at lvl 1.

maximum LA is +2

we will be using a new char sheet "even if I have to design it"

Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2

feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system.

If you want wings fine but you will get them trough me when I deem it appropriate.

You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2

You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room.

at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap.

you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it.
Kouk
07-18-07, 04:47 AM Are these things you are thinking about putting in a campaign pack, or verbally telling new players?

I would suggest putting all your house rules and such on paper and printing several copies so everyone can have one. One page for house rules, one page for character creation info, and one page for campaign-specific info like the setting and tone of the game.

If you do this, some things you might consider are if you start at level 1, it might be tough to have a race with a +2 LA.

You should clearly state all base classes you allow, if there are some you do not. Generally you should either state which classes are allowed, or which classes are not allowed, whichever is the shorter list. This is good information to have when a player designs a character, and this way you do not forget things if someone asks you about which classes are allowed months down the road.

For campaign info, such as starting location, that should probably be on a separate page or sheet. I assume you mean the western heartlands region of Faerun, so that might be something to note unless you are making this campaign for a group that is used to the FR.

Why do you need a new character sheet? This seems excessive for you to control the character sheet they use.

Information about "wings", if you think for some reason your group will bring it up, would probably do well to be on the house rules page unless you also mean races that nominally have wings.

Requiring the players to read their class description seems excessive, most players would do this anyway. You probably know your group better than me though, so it may well be necessary to state this :P

You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room.

at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap.
This is awfully heavy handed of you. I don't think you should be dictating to the players how they should play their characters. Determining a permanent "leader" should be up to the group, usually groups act democratically and decide things on a case-by-case basis, not just a permanent assignment. Again, I don't know what kind of knuckleheads you play with regularly that won't realize that Rogues should usually search for traps... but if you absolutely must tell them these things you are probably correct.

I would say the whole tone of your message seems very confrontational and angry. You might consider making it more business-like, impartial, and detached. Rather than "we" you could say "characters".

Rather than you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it. I think a better way to say this would be something like "Not all fights can be won by sheer force of arms, and may require good tactics to overcome".
Kamin_Majere
07-18-07, 07:48 AM I would also love any general advice you guys could give me
ok

we will be starting at lvl 1.
Good place to start

maximum LA is +2
This will throw off your game. To play a LA+2 race your game would have to start at level 3. Other wise your either wanting people to play LA+2 races or your wanting to penalize people that play races with low Level Adjustment

we will be using a new char sheet "even if I have to design it"
Ok, but there are ALOT of character sheets already out there. I can understand a DM wanting everyone to use the same sheet in a game, but (having made one myself) i can tell you its abit annoying making a character sheet. I would suggest using one that is already in existance.

Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2
You need to decide before you begin what you will allow then. Because if you "Only allow XY&Z classes" BUt you make an exception for one person and dont for another it can lead to hard feelings and thoughts of favoritism.

If your wanting to use restricted classes, then make a list and give that to the players. Tell them that is it and you cannot play anything not on the list.
It might be harsh to them, but at least its the same ruleing for everyone.

feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system.
I would suggest against this. The point of class features is to reward you for taking a class, just giving it to someone else "because" isnt usually a good rule to start using.

If you want wings fine but you will get them trough me when I deem it appropriate.
I would suggest agasint this as well. PCs shouldnt start off with wings. I understand most can eventually fly when its all said and done, but at low level theres no need. Make them walk

You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2
Why would they need to read an expanded portion if they dont want to use it? I'f i'm playing a rogue and like the class as is (instead of wanting the bonus to saves agasint spells instead of traps) then why force it down my throat?

You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room.

at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap.
These are two entirely diffrent situations. If the Knight came up to my wizard and started demanding i cast spells, i'd politely tell him where he can stick that sharp pointed stick he carries. Spells are not infinite (espically at low levels) and its for the wizard to decide to use them or not.

The Rogue situation is being responsible to your party. If i'm scouting as a rogue and i come upon a trap. First i'm studying it (search check) and by that point the party should be catching up wiht me. A good rule of thumb is that if the rogue has stopped for some reason.... um stop as well. I as the rogue, will let the party know whats going on as soon as the time premits itself (after the trap is disabled or flagged)

you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it.
I think Kouk's way of saying it sounds alot better
Gargs454
07-18-07, 12:18 PM you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it.

I definitely agree with the way Kouk phrased it. Frankly, if you were to state this to your players, they might well all show up at the next session with a conductor's hat for you. Saying that they WILL fight something sounds an awful lot like railroading, after all, the party could just choose to go down a different road or run away, etc.

Saying that some encounters will require them to think outside the box though is entirely different and is something that hopefully will get them excited.

With respect to your comments about the "leader" and rogue I would recommend something more along the lines of:

"My goal will be to present the party with situations that are challenging but not impossible. It is likely that if the party does not work together, they will encounter significant difficulties. However, by working together and thinking outside the box, every challenge should be doable even if some seem touch and go for a while."

Most players will resent being specifically told what to do, whether its by the DM or another player. However, if you spell it out for them that they will have to "Hang together or die alone" they should be able to figure out that its in the best interest to let the rogue examine the door before opening it and to figure out a plan before knocking down the door.

I would also caution against starting at lvl 1 if you allow LA +2 races. And as previously mentioned you should specifically state what you will or will not allow. Often this can be done by "anything in the Core books plus the Complete series will be allowed" or some similar language.
Ace_of_Night
07-18-07, 12:40 PM up in till now we have been a bash in the door group that spent 95% of the time in a dungen. it was like theres a problum the dngen id the solution and look your magically in the dungen. we have been slowly moving away from this and are ready to make the big leap in to a year long full detail campaing. this is my package and I wanted to know what you guys think before I present it to the players.

I would also love any general advice you guys could give me

My primary goal is to make the players think of stratigies and develop connections with their characters.

We will be begining in the weastern heartlands.

we will be starting at lvl 1.

maximum LA is +2

we will be using a new char sheet "even if I have to design it"

Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2

feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system.

If you want wings fine but you will get them trough me when I deem it appropriate.

You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2

You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room.

at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap.

you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it.

Hmm.. I mainly feel a lot of favoritism in this entire post, if you tell your players how and what in this way they might very well get upset (I know I would if I had a DM telling me this)
As I read it, they
- Have to select a leader and obey his every command. It's often much better just to have this leader make decisions when there's something the group can't figure out themselves, but a character shouldn't go telling everyone what to do constantly, as I assume a wizard to be smart enough to cast detect magic, or other players not to blatantly run by all the time while there's a rogue looking for traps in that area.
- Can get wings, but only if and when you allow them to. You should either give them the ability to get wings (with alter self or fly spells it doesn't matter anymore anyway) or don't give it to them. Moreover, if you want to give them wings through the Winged Template, give it to them at character creation and no later.
- Can get feats and special abilities, and other classes than the PHB 1 and 2 ones, but again only if and when you allow them to. Same advice, be clear about what is and isn't right, else you'll certainly have upset people if you give one person the feats and abilities he/she wants and someone else can't have his/hers.

Bluntly put together, tell them what they can and can't become before anything, not afterwards depending on whether or not you feel like allowing it when they've already made up their minds. Otherwise, you'll get a lot of discussions in the spirit of "Why can he have feat x and ability y and I can't have feat z" and "You're only not giving that to me because you like him more than me"
And never, ever, give one player everything the way they like it and make him leader and everyone else has to do it with whatever you and the leader are ok with. Everyone in a DM group is equal, even if you like one person more out of game. That is, if you want to keep everyone happy and showing up.
Midrealm_DM
07-18-07, 01:52 PM I would also love any general advice you guys could give me
Just a note, have you peeked at _DMG 2_ it has some useful tips on organizing and starting campaigns.

My primary goal is to make the players think of stratigies and develop connections with their characters.
Just remember to reward them for clever ideas and strategies, and role-playing. I assign a xp bonus of ~100 xp to any player who has a good role-playing moment. Some players can can accumulate several of these in one adventure.
Just be careful, if you are give out alot of this reward to some players (who may be better role-players) the other players will get discouraged at being behind on xp.

Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2
I agree with some of the other posts you should have a pre-approved list with no exceptions. At lest for the begining, only after you and the players get a freel for your campaign should you think about exceptions.

feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system.
I think this is bad, you just said you would restrict certain classes, but now you are saying you will allow certain class features outside of the classes? Seems contradictory.
If you want someone to have access to a class feature, allow the class.
If a Player claims their Fighter is a devout follower of their church, would you allow them to turn undead?
In many cases there are feats that allow access to abilities that mirror certain class abilities.

If you decide you absolutely must allow this (which I discourage) at the very least you should think about making them expend a feat to get it. And some class features are more powerful than others; on these more powerful features (if you do go this route) one feat should get a lesser version, while two or more feats are required to get the full version.

You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2
I think I understand what you are saying here... perhaps
"Players should be familiar with their feats, skills, and class abilities from both PHB and PHB2 and what they are and are not capable of doing."
Though since they are used to Hack & Slash style playing it wouldn't hurt for the DM to nudge them every now and then at the begining. Such as "Attacking the guard would call too much attention, but you have seen several peasants carrying supplies go past without much harassment."
Hopefully players should see that they could try bluff/disguise to get past.

You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room.
How about - "A leader should be appointed who will speak on behalf of the party, in situations where the party can not agree on a course of action, the leader's decison will prevail."

Further I suggest looking at Team Roles on p 157 of the PHB
you could also suggest them impliment a Face man, Scout, Historian, Treasurer, etc.

at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap.
Actually the entire Chapter 6 in PHB2 would help
The characters need a history together and a reason to trust one another. If the party's rogue knowingly allows the other players to walk into a trap, something is seriously wrong with the party dynamics.
Maybe something like:
"The party should work together as a team and take actions that in the best interest in the party. Acts of betrayal within the party are discouraged."

you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it.
I wouldn't tell them 'its a dragon' The other suggestions presented here are good. And just FYI Dragons are notable overpowered for their CR, so even a dragon of the appropriate CR should be chalenging.

I would also start with some warm up adventures to get them thinking, and only when they start to get the hang of it should you throw a dragon at them. But I'm betting you weren't going to throw a dragon at them at lvl 1 anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ravage_john 07-18-07, 03:55 AM	up in till now we have been a bash in the door group that spent 95% of the time in a dungen. it was like theres a problum the dngen id the solution and look your magically in the dungen. we have been slowly moving away from this and are ready to make the big leap in to a year long full detail campaing. this is my package and I wanted to know what you guys think before I present it to the players. I would also love any general advice you guys could give me My primary goal is to make the players think of stratigies and develop connections with their characters. We will be begining in the weastern heartlands. we will be starting at lvl 1. maximum LA is +2 we will be using a new char sheet "even if I have to design it" Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2 feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system. If you want wings fine but you will get them trough me when I deem it appropriate. You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2 You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room. at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap. you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it.
Kouk 07-18-07, 04:47 AM	Are these things you are thinking about putting in a campaign pack, or verbally telling new players? I would suggest putting all your house rules and such on paper and printing several copies so everyone can have one. One page for house rules, one page for character creation info, and one page for campaign-specific info like the setting and tone of the game. If you do this, some things you might consider are if you start at level 1, it might be tough to have a race with a +2 LA. You should clearly state all base classes you allow, if there are some you do not. Generally you should either state which classes are allowed, or which classes are not allowed, whichever is the shorter list. This is good information to have when a player designs a character, and this way you do not forget things if someone asks you about which classes are allowed months down the road. For campaign info, such as starting location, that should probably be on a separate page or sheet. I assume you mean the western heartlands region of Faerun, so that might be something to note unless you are making this campaign for a group that is used to the FR. Why do you need a new character sheet? This seems excessive for you to control the character sheet they use. Information about "wings", if you think for some reason your group will bring it up, would probably do well to be on the house rules page unless you also mean races that nominally have wings. Requiring the players to read their class description seems excessive, most players would do this anyway. You probably know your group better than me though, so it may well be necessary to state this :P You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room. at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap. This is awfully heavy handed of you. I don't think you should be dictating to the players how they should play their characters. Determining a permanent "leader" should be up to the group, usually groups act democratically and decide things on a case-by-case basis, not just a permanent assignment. Again, I don't know what kind of knuckleheads you play with regularly that won't realize that Rogues should usually search for traps... but if you absolutely must tell them these things you are probably correct. I would say the whole tone of your message seems very confrontational and angry. You might consider making it more business-like, impartial, and detached. Rather than "we" you could say "characters". Rather than you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it. I think a better way to say this would be something like "Not all fights can be won by sheer force of arms, and may require good tactics to overcome".
Kamin_Majere 07-18-07, 07:48 AM	I would also love any general advice you guys could give me ok we will be starting at lvl 1. Good place to start maximum LA is +2 This will throw off your game. To play a LA+2 race your game would have to start at level 3. Other wise your either wanting people to play LA+2 races or your wanting to penalize people that play races with low Level Adjustment we will be using a new char sheet "even if I have to design it" Ok, but there are ALOT of character sheets already out there. I can understand a DM wanting everyone to use the same sheet in a game, but (having made one myself) i can tell you its abit annoying making a character sheet. I would suggest using one that is already in existance. Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2 You need to decide before you begin what you will allow then. Because if you "Only allow XY&Z classes" BUt you make an exception for one person and dont for another it can lead to hard feelings and thoughts of favoritism. If your wanting to use restricted classes, then make a list and give that to the players. Tell them that is it and you cannot play anything not on the list. It might be harsh to them, but at least its the same ruleing for everyone. feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system. I would suggest against this. The point of class features is to reward you for taking a class, just giving it to someone else "because" isnt usually a good rule to start using. If you want wings fine but you will get them trough me when I deem it appropriate. I would suggest agasint this as well. PCs shouldnt start off with wings. I understand most can eventually fly when its all said and done, but at low level theres no need. Make them walk You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2 Why would they need to read an expanded portion if they dont want to use it? I'f i'm playing a rogue and like the class as is (instead of wanting the bonus to saves agasint spells instead of traps) then why force it down my throat? You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room. at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap. These are two entirely diffrent situations. If the Knight came up to my wizard and started demanding i cast spells, i'd politely tell him where he can stick that sharp pointed stick he carries. Spells are not infinite (espically at low levels) and its for the wizard to decide to use them or not. The Rogue situation is being responsible to your party. If i'm scouting as a rogue and i come upon a trap. First i'm studying it (search check) and by that point the party should be catching up wiht me. A good rule of thumb is that if the rogue has stopped for some reason.... um stop as well. I as the rogue, will let the party know whats going on as soon as the time premits itself (after the trap is disabled or flagged) you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it. I think Kouk's way of saying it sounds alot better
Gargs454 07-18-07, 12:18 PM	you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it. I definitely agree with the way Kouk phrased it. Frankly, if you were to state this to your players, they might well all show up at the next session with a conductor's hat for you. Saying that they WILL fight something sounds an awful lot like railroading, after all, the party could just choose to go down a different road or run away, etc. Saying that some encounters will require them to think outside the box though is entirely different and is something that hopefully will get them excited. With respect to your comments about the "leader" and rogue I would recommend something more along the lines of: "My goal will be to present the party with situations that are challenging but not impossible. It is likely that if the party does not work together, they will encounter significant difficulties. However, by working together and thinking outside the box, every challenge should be doable even if some seem touch and go for a while." Most players will resent being specifically told what to do, whether its by the DM or another player. However, if you spell it out for them that they will have to "Hang together or die alone" they should be able to figure out that its in the best interest to let the rogue examine the door before opening it and to figure out a plan before knocking down the door. I would also caution against starting at lvl 1 if you allow LA +2 races. And as previously mentioned you should specifically state what you will or will not allow. Often this can be done by "anything in the Core books plus the Complete series will be allowed" or some similar language.
Ace_of_Night 07-18-07, 12:40 PM	up in till now we have been a bash in the door group that spent 95% of the time in a dungen. it was like theres a problum the dngen id the solution and look your magically in the dungen. we have been slowly moving away from this and are ready to make the big leap in to a year long full detail campaing. this is my package and I wanted to know what you guys think before I present it to the players. I would also love any general advice you guys could give me My primary goal is to make the players think of stratigies and develop connections with their characters. We will be begining in the weastern heartlands. we will be starting at lvl 1. maximum LA is +2 we will be using a new char sheet "even if I have to design it" Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2 feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system. If you want wings fine but you will get them trough me when I deem it appropriate. You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2 You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room. at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap. you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it. Hmm.. I mainly feel a lot of favoritism in this entire post, if you tell your players how and what in this way they might very well get upset (I know I would if I had a DM telling me this) As I read it, they - Have to select a leader and obey his every command. It's often much better just to have this leader make decisions when there's something the group can't figure out themselves, but a character shouldn't go telling everyone what to do constantly, as I assume a wizard to be smart enough to cast detect magic, or other players not to blatantly run by all the time while there's a rogue looking for traps in that area. - Can get wings, but only if and when you allow them to. You should either give them the ability to get wings (with alter self or fly spells it doesn't matter anymore anyway) or don't give it to them. Moreover, if you want to give them wings through the Winged Template, give it to them at character creation and no later. - Can get feats and special abilities, and other classes than the PHB 1 and 2 ones, but again only if and when you allow them to. Same advice, be clear about what is and isn't right, else you'll certainly have upset people if you give one person the feats and abilities he/she wants and someone else can't have his/hers. Bluntly put together, tell them what they can and can't become before anything, not afterwards depending on whether or not you feel like allowing it when they've already made up their minds. Otherwise, you'll get a lot of discussions in the spirit of "Why can he have feat x and ability y and I can't have feat z" and "You're only not giving that to me because you like him more than me" And never, ever, give one player everything the way they like it and make him leader and everyone else has to do it with whatever you and the leader are ok with. Everyone in a DM group is equal, even if you like one person more out of game. That is, if you want to keep everyone happy and showing up.
Midrealm_DM 07-18-07, 01:52 PM	I would also love any general advice you guys could give me Just a note, have you peeked at _DMG 2_ it has some useful tips on organizing and starting campaigns. My primary goal is to make the players think of stratigies and develop connections with their characters. Just remember to reward them for clever ideas and strategies, and role-playing. I assign a xp bonus of ~100 xp to any player who has a good role-playing moment. Some players can can accumulate several of these in one adventure. Just be careful, if you are give out alot of this reward to some players (who may be better role-players) the other players will get discouraged at being behind on xp. Players must play classes I approve of and very few exceptions will be made outside of PHB1 & PHB2 I agree with some of the other posts you should have a pre-approved list with no exceptions. At lest for the begining, only after you and the players get a freel for your campaign should you think about exceptions. feats and special features such of strike of perfect clarity may be used outside of their normal class restrictions on a case by case request system. I think this is bad, you just said you would restrict certain classes, but now you are saying you will allow certain class features outside of the classes? Seems contradictory. If you want someone to have access to a class feature, allow the class. If a Player claims their Fighter is a devout follower of their church, would you allow them to turn undead? In many cases there are feats that allow access to abilities that mirror certain class abilities. If you decide you absolutely must allow this (which I discourage) at the very least you should think about making them expend a feat to get it. And some class features are more powerful than others; on these more powerful features (if you do go this route) one feat should get a lesser version, while two or more feats are required to get the full version. You will be required to read your entire class section and its expanded portion from PHB2 I think I understand what you are saying here... perhaps "Players should be familiar with their feats, skills, and class abilities from both PHB and PHB2 and what they are and are not capable of doing." Though since they are used to Hack & Slash style playing it wouldn't hurt for the DM to nudge them every now and then at the begining. Such as "Attacking the guard would call too much attention, but you have seen several peasants carrying supplies go past without much harassment." Hopefully players should see that they could try bluff/disguise to get past. You will pick a leader who will direct the group as a leader. for example the knight is the party leader and asks the wizerd to cast detect magic when they enter a room. How about - "A leader should be appointed who will speak on behalf of the party, in situations where the party can not agree on a course of action, the leader's decison will prevail." Further I suggest looking at Team Roles on p 157 of the PHB you could also suggest them impliment a Face man, Scout, Historian, Treasurer, etc. at the same time classes like the rouge must try and keep the others from stupidly killing themselves with a flame trap. Actually the entire Chapter 6 in PHB2 would help The characters need a history together and a reason to trust one another. If the party's rogue knowingly allows the other players to walk into a trap, something is seriously wrong with the party dynamics. Maybe something like: "The party should work together as a team and take actions that in the best interest in the party. Acts of betrayal within the party are discouraged." you will fight a dragon that is higher cr then you and you will need your wits to beat it. I wouldn't tell them 'its a dragon' The other suggestions presented here are good. And just FYI Dragons are notable overpowered for their CR, so even a dragon of the appropriate CR should be chalenging. I would also start with some warm up adventures to get them thinking, and only when they start to get the hang of it should you throw a dragon at them. But I'm betting you weren't going to throw a dragon at them at lvl 1 anyway.