Adjudicating Illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adjudicating Illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pwydde
02-07-08, 11:32 PM Well crafted illusions are really fun. But where do you draw the line between allowing a saving throw to see through it and considering the illusion so plausible and convincing that you don't allow a save? When do the viewer of the illusions suffer (illusory) damage? And any other possible outcomes.

Examples from recent adventures:

1) After the rogue has used a javelin of lightning and ducked off the road into the woods, the wizard crafts a Silent Image of the same rogue pacing on the road holding a javelin as if to throw, threatening the attackers.

2) Powerful NPC party blasts through a wall to attack the PC party. The wizard crafts a Major Image of the shattered masonry collapsing, complete with noise and dust and dusty odor, on the spell casters lined up behind the frontline NPCs.

3) Just after another mage puts a lightning bolt through the enemy, the wizard puts a Minor Image bolt through, as well.

4) Out of sight of the main fight, the wizard conjures a Major Image of the well known PC front line to slow down a rear attack from around a bend in the passageway. The wizard, of course, does his level best to have the illusory fighters react appropriately as if in a rearguard holding position.

I'd appreciate advice and other salient examples.
nowiwantmydmg
02-08-08, 12:26 AM The rule we've always used is a role to disbelieve is usually allowed if there is a reason to disbelieve(the illusion is a little off, unusual circumstances(a whale in a forest, etc)) or if the person(s) viewing it are or have reason to be suspicious.

Don't know if that's the official stance or not, but it seems logical to us and works pretty well.
MrGrass
02-08-08, 02:06 AM I think the RAW statement of "if interacted with" is what you want to base it on. Though where it gets tricky is what is interaction. But let me run down your examples.

1. At that point I'd say No Save. The image is just looking threatening. This is a great way to get opponents to go through resources or distract them from something. But when they interact with the image (hit with a spell or attack or study for a round) they get a save. :elf:

2. I'd say that in this case they get a save right away, seeing as how they're "interacting" with the debris that is falling all around them. If they fail they're thinking that the place is coming down around them and will probably flee away from the cave in. :gah:

3. I'd almost say that no save is needed since having a lightning bolt go through you and doing nothing is pretty solid proof that the bolt isn't real. :mage:

4. This pretty much goes the same as in #1. No save at first, but once the foes attack the image in someway (or take the time to study it) they get a save. :fight!:

As for "illusory damage" there really isn't anything unless the spell specifically inflicts it (ie Phantasmal Assailants).
Dunsel
02-08-08, 02:59 PM 1) After the rogue has used a javelin of lightning and ducked off the road into the woods, the wizard crafts a Silent Image of the same rogue pacing on the road holding a javelin as if to throw, threatening the attackers.

No save, the effect is not interacted with.

2) Powerful NPC party blasts through a wall to attack the PC party. The wizard crafts a Major Image of the shattered masonry collapsing, complete with noise and dust and dusty odor, on the spell casters lined up behind the frontline NPCs.

Will save for any NPCS hit.

3) Just after another mage puts a lightning bolt through the enemy, the wizard puts a Minor Image bolt through, as well.

Will save for all npcs hit.

4) Out of sight of the main fight, the wizard conjures a Major Image of the well known PC front line to slow down a rear attack from around a bend in the passageway. The wizard, of course, does his level best to have the illusory fighters react appropriately as if in a rearguard holding position.

I'd appreciate advice and other salient examples.

Will save as above.

You may add circumstance bonuses/penalties based on the situation such as #3. I would add a -2 to the save just b/c they were just blasted by a lightning bolt.

Too many DMs don't like or use illusions b/c they are "too difficult" to rule.
I use the touched/not touched rule.

Touched - the illusion is in contact with a PC/NPC. The RAW will save is appropriate here. If the Will save is successful, the illusion is disbelieved and therefore, ineffective. As I stated above, circumstances affect the DC.

Untouched - the illusion is not in contact with a PC/NPC. The illusion is far away and/or not touched. Depending on circumstances, I will roll a secret saving throw which is a combo of spot with an int bonus.

I hope this helps.
mtbOgre
02-08-08, 04:17 PM As MrGrass pointed out the 3.5 version of illusion spells (silent image, minor image, major image...) do not inflict damage or ever physically interact with creatures.

Old D&D - Create an illusion of a 50' deep pit, creature fails his save and runs across the pit he takes falling damage.

3.5 - Same illusion, same failed save the creature walks across the pit and thinks he's walking on air.

Personally I think the current version is plenty powerful for battlefield control and such. The shadow spells later on deal actual damage. I'm not sure when the illusory damage went away, I have played AD&D and 3.5 but nothing between.
ccerose
02-08-08, 04:48 PM I had a player who ran a wizard specializing in illusion spells. I found this series of Rules of the Game articles very helpful in determining how I would adjudicate his spells.

Part 1 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a)
Part 2 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a)
Part 3 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a)
Part 4 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a)
Pwydde
02-08-08, 09:58 PM ccerose, the articles were instructive. Thanks.

I suppose, like mtbOgre, I have not purged myself of AD&D and 2nd edition play so I have not looked closely at the RAW. I have been forcusing more on believability than interaction. When the caster uses the NPCs' fears or expectations against them, I haven't been making saving throws for them, on the ground that the NPCs wouldn't doubt it. I've been giving "illusory" damage, sort of like non-lethal damage (I still call it subdual damage), on the theory that the NPCs are convinced they've been hurt.

The second Lightning Bolt, for example, is something that the NPCs would almost expect. Certainly, they wouldn't be surprised. Similarly, in example 2, NPCs under the falling masonry who failed their saves were convinced that they had been buried or pinned, and were out of action for the rest of the encounter.

Dunsel: Would you apply any sort of damage to those NPCs that fail their saves? If you wouldn't, then the consensus is that it's not permitted in 3.5.

Unless, of course, I house-rule that it is.
Daeva
02-10-08, 01:11 AM well you have to keep in mind the illusions never have any real effect and most are NOT mind affecting so they person will never FEEL something happening, none of the illusions at all seem to have textile effects so... the collapsing house/tunnel whatever a failed save would probably cause them to flee, or crouch defensively but it wont take long at all to realize that the bricks and stuff that fell on them not only weren't at all felt and may be considered dazed for a round or two.

imagine your driving and the guy in front of you slams on thier break and you almost hit them, but you see someone about to side swipe you goign fast so you clinch your eyes and brace, then nothing actually happens, how long do you think you were out of it, one round for clinching and stuff, another round going holy hell nothing happend.

the lit bolt probbaly would not have a real effect even the holy cow feeling would only last a second on that one similar to if a guy shot at you with a gun and missed.

the guy fighting would allow a save every time someone hits it, no matter how well it reacts it does not produce the "counter" force required to seem real, think about little bunny foo foo, hes running through the forest, scooping up the field mice and bopping them on the head, now your foo foo. and suddenly you see a dastardly field mouse that always gets away and you approach and try to whack him on the head (only an ac of 10 for the illusion) and the stick your using hits the field mouse reels in pain but... you don't feel the vibrations of the hit, and your club went straight down without resistance. theres a save, and each time he hits the super low ac again probably another one at +4, shouldnt be too long until thy make it

as for the javalin thing, no save at all, maybe a spot check to see th guy running and hiding MAYBE depending on situation, but even then that might be a save at -4, still looks like SOMEONE threw something, and the thing that they threw seems very real (specially if it hits!!) you know considering it was real, agian saves with a bonus for each hit on the illusion that does nothing, even observed ones perhaps.

dont feel like giving an example for this, but if i would it would be that jerk off punk at school whos only like.. 5ft 2 and likes to throw rocks at you, who always has that really obese friends who's sooooo big hes virtually invulnerable in a fist fight, and unmoveable in a grapple and is attached to the 5ft 2 guy because of desperation? poor fatty :(

im a fatty :(
mtbOgre
02-10-08, 09:36 PM well you have to keep in mind the illusions never have any real effect and most are NOT mind affecting so they person will never FEEL something happening, none of the illusions at all seem to have textile effects so... the collapsing house/tunnel whatever a failed save would probably cause them to flee, or crouch defensively but it wont take long at all to realize that the bricks and stuff that fell on them not only weren't at all felt and may be considered dazed for a round or two.

Well they still have to make the saving throw even if they do interact with it. I would definitely give them a bonus if they would have been hurt by the illusion and didn't though. In the cave-in example you would be better off making the illusion miss them and look like a chain reaction that's coming at them.

One good one I can think of is a lightning bolt spell triggering an illusory forest fire. Another great one I heard of was to mix real spells with low level illusions. You can't hurt them but you can use it for battlefield control. Wall of stone then a silent image of a stone wall somewhere else. Or make a real wall look like it's somewhere else so a running enemy barrels headlong into a wall. Move the edge of a pit or cliff so they think they have another 5'.

The idea is that the illusion can't hurt but the real stuff the illusion is hiding can.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pwydde 02-07-08, 11:32 PM	Well crafted illusions are really fun. But where do you draw the line between allowing a saving throw to see through it and considering the illusion so plausible and convincing that you don't allow a save? When do the viewer of the illusions suffer (illusory) damage? And any other possible outcomes. Examples from recent adventures: 1) After the rogue has used a javelin of lightning and ducked off the road into the woods, the wizard crafts a Silent Image of the same rogue pacing on the road holding a javelin as if to throw, threatening the attackers. 2) Powerful NPC party blasts through a wall to attack the PC party. The wizard crafts a Major Image of the shattered masonry collapsing, complete with noise and dust and dusty odor, on the spell casters lined up behind the frontline NPCs. 3) Just after another mage puts a lightning bolt through the enemy, the wizard puts a Minor Image bolt through, as well. 4) Out of sight of the main fight, the wizard conjures a Major Image of the well known PC front line to slow down a rear attack from around a bend in the passageway. The wizard, of course, does his level best to have the illusory fighters react appropriately as if in a rearguard holding position. I'd appreciate advice and other salient examples.
nowiwantmydmg 02-08-08, 12:26 AM	The rule we've always used is a role to disbelieve is usually allowed if there is a reason to disbelieve(the illusion is a little off, unusual circumstances(a whale in a forest, etc)) or if the person(s) viewing it are or have reason to be suspicious. Don't know if that's the official stance or not, but it seems logical to us and works pretty well.
MrGrass 02-08-08, 02:06 AM	I think the RAW statement of "if interacted with" is what you want to base it on. Though where it gets tricky is what is interaction. But let me run down your examples. 1. At that point I'd say No Save. The image is just looking threatening. This is a great way to get opponents to go through resources or distract them from something. But when they interact with the image (hit with a spell or attack or study for a round) they get a save. :elf: 2. I'd say that in this case they get a save right away, seeing as how they're "interacting" with the debris that is falling all around them. If they fail they're thinking that the place is coming down around them and will probably flee away from the cave in. :gah: 3. I'd almost say that no save is needed since having a lightning bolt go through you and doing nothing is pretty solid proof that the bolt isn't real. :mage: 4. This pretty much goes the same as in #1. No save at first, but once the foes attack the image in someway (or take the time to study it) they get a save. :fight!: As for "illusory damage" there really isn't anything unless the spell specifically inflicts it (ie Phantasmal Assailants).
Dunsel 02-08-08, 02:59 PM	1) After the rogue has used a javelin of lightning and ducked off the road into the woods, the wizard crafts a Silent Image of the same rogue pacing on the road holding a javelin as if to throw, threatening the attackers. No save, the effect is not interacted with. 2) Powerful NPC party blasts through a wall to attack the PC party. The wizard crafts a Major Image of the shattered masonry collapsing, complete with noise and dust and dusty odor, on the spell casters lined up behind the frontline NPCs. Will save for any NPCS hit. 3) Just after another mage puts a lightning bolt through the enemy, the wizard puts a Minor Image bolt through, as well. Will save for all npcs hit. 4) Out of sight of the main fight, the wizard conjures a Major Image of the well known PC front line to slow down a rear attack from around a bend in the passageway. The wizard, of course, does his level best to have the illusory fighters react appropriately as if in a rearguard holding position. I'd appreciate advice and other salient examples. Will save as above. You may add circumstance bonuses/penalties based on the situation such as #3. I would add a -2 to the save just b/c they were just blasted by a lightning bolt. Too many DMs don't like or use illusions b/c they are "too difficult" to rule. I use the touched/not touched rule. Touched - the illusion is in contact with a PC/NPC. The RAW will save is appropriate here. If the Will save is successful, the illusion is disbelieved and therefore, ineffective. As I stated above, circumstances affect the DC. Untouched - the illusion is not in contact with a PC/NPC. The illusion is far away and/or not touched. Depending on circumstances, I will roll a secret saving throw which is a combo of spot with an int bonus. I hope this helps.
mtbOgre 02-08-08, 04:17 PM	As MrGrass pointed out the 3.5 version of illusion spells (silent image, minor image, major image...) do not inflict damage or ever physically interact with creatures. Old D&D - Create an illusion of a 50' deep pit, creature fails his save and runs across the pit he takes falling damage. 3.5 - Same illusion, same failed save the creature walks across the pit and thinks he's walking on air. Personally I think the current version is plenty powerful for battlefield control and such. The shadow spells later on deal actual damage. I'm not sure when the illusory damage went away, I have played AD&D and 3.5 but nothing between.
ccerose 02-08-08, 04:48 PM	I had a player who ran a wizard specializing in illusion spells. I found this series of Rules of the Game articles very helpful in determining how I would adjudicate his spells. Part 1 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a) Part 2 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a) Part 3 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a) Part 4 (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a)
Pwydde 02-08-08, 09:58 PM	ccerose, the articles were instructive. Thanks. I suppose, like mtbOgre, I have not purged myself of AD&D and 2nd edition play so I have not looked closely at the RAW. I have been forcusing more on believability than interaction. When the caster uses the NPCs' fears or expectations against them, I haven't been making saving throws for them, on the ground that the NPCs wouldn't doubt it. I've been giving "illusory" damage, sort of like non-lethal damage (I still call it subdual damage), on the theory that the NPCs are convinced they've been hurt. The second Lightning Bolt, for example, is something that the NPCs would almost expect. Certainly, they wouldn't be surprised. Similarly, in example 2, NPCs under the falling masonry who failed their saves were convinced that they had been buried or pinned, and were out of action for the rest of the encounter. Dunsel: Would you apply any sort of damage to those NPCs that fail their saves? If you wouldn't, then the consensus is that it's not permitted in 3.5. Unless, of course, I house-rule that it is.
Daeva 02-10-08, 01:11 AM	well you have to keep in mind the illusions never have any real effect and most are NOT mind affecting so they person will never FEEL something happening, none of the illusions at all seem to have textile effects so... the collapsing house/tunnel whatever a failed save would probably cause them to flee, or crouch defensively but it wont take long at all to realize that the bricks and stuff that fell on them not only weren't at all felt and may be considered dazed for a round or two. imagine your driving and the guy in front of you slams on thier break and you almost hit them, but you see someone about to side swipe you goign fast so you clinch your eyes and brace, then nothing actually happens, how long do you think you were out of it, one round for clinching and stuff, another round going holy hell nothing happend. the lit bolt probbaly would not have a real effect even the holy cow feeling would only last a second on that one similar to if a guy shot at you with a gun and missed. the guy fighting would allow a save every time someone hits it, no matter how well it reacts it does not produce the "counter" force required to seem real, think about little bunny foo foo, hes running through the forest, scooping up the field mice and bopping them on the head, now your foo foo. and suddenly you see a dastardly field mouse that always gets away and you approach and try to whack him on the head (only an ac of 10 for the illusion) and the stick your using hits the field mouse reels in pain but... you don't feel the vibrations of the hit, and your club went straight down without resistance. theres a save, and each time he hits the super low ac again probably another one at +4, shouldnt be too long until thy make it as for the javalin thing, no save at all, maybe a spot check to see th guy running and hiding MAYBE depending on situation, but even then that might be a save at -4, still looks like SOMEONE threw something, and the thing that they threw seems very real (specially if it hits!!) you know considering it was real, agian saves with a bonus for each hit on the illusion that does nothing, even observed ones perhaps. dont feel like giving an example for this, but if i would it would be that jerk off punk at school whos only like.. 5ft 2 and likes to throw rocks at you, who always has that really obese friends who's sooooo big hes virtually invulnerable in a fist fight, and unmoveable in a grapple and is attached to the 5ft 2 guy because of desperation? poor fatty :( im a fatty :(
mtbOgre 02-10-08, 09:36 PM	well you have to keep in mind the illusions never have any real effect and most are NOT mind affecting so they person will never FEEL something happening, none of the illusions at all seem to have textile effects so... the collapsing house/tunnel whatever a failed save would probably cause them to flee, or crouch defensively but it wont take long at all to realize that the bricks and stuff that fell on them not only weren't at all felt and may be considered dazed for a round or two. Well they still have to make the saving throw even if they do interact with it. I would definitely give them a bonus if they would have been hurt by the illusion and didn't though. In the cave-in example you would be better off making the illusion miss them and look like a chain reaction that's coming at them. One good one I can think of is a lightning bolt spell triggering an illusory forest fire. Another great one I heard of was to mix real spells with low level illusions. You can't hurt them but you can use it for battlefield control. Wall of stone then a silent image of a stone wall somewhere else. Or make a real wall look like it's somewhere else so a running enemy barrels headlong into a wall. Move the edge of a pit or cliff so they think they have another 5'. The idea is that the illusion can't hurt but the real stuff the illusion is hiding can.