Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callista 03-11-05, 07:36 PM	...Player, not PC. If it were a PC, I could handle it... I have a new player, a good friend, who, after a recent fight with a vampire spawn, revealed to me that she didn't like vampires, because they were "getting old" and on TV so much. I thought, okay; no problem, and she has a point--I'll just cut out the vampires and use different undead when I need undead. Just recently, I found out that the player didn't quite tell me the whole story... she's actually worried that she'll have nightmares about undead if she has to fight them in the game, and she's more than a little scared of them. She has a very vivid imagination, and I wouldn't be surprised if she's telling the truth this time. I used to be very afraid of undead myself when I was little, so I can understand what it feels like... so I'm going to have to see if I can minimize or eliminate undead from my campaign. This is going to be hard, because I had planned on having them run across a whole "village" full of sentient undead, and a lich BBEG besides. At any rate, I need some alternatives. I want a BBEG who's capable of living a long time; elf is a little too short... I want a group of creatures that can form an underground community and serve said BBEG... I've thought of Drow... I'm considering illithids... I'm even thinking of various aberrations and a planar rift... I'm just not sure what will work. I need something that: --Is adaptable enough to go through several levels of challenge ratings, 6 to 15 --Can produce a BBEG that can have a very long life-span (not necessarily naturally) of a thousand years or more --Can work together as a community, secretly --Is evil enough to force this mostly-Good party to do something about it, but not so evil (as in BoVD evil, probably demons/devils too) to creep out the phobic player --Is not likely to employ necromancy, obviously... Care to bounce some ideas off me? Thanks.
aaron3579 03-11-05, 07:42 PM	Are you sure that this person is stable/mature enough to play D&D in the first place? I mean, OK, she's afraid of undead. That is beside the point; the real issue here is the player not being able to clearly distinguish between fantasy and reality. Just like some children shouldn't be allowed to watch certain horror movies, certain people just aren't cut out for table-top role-playing. So it seems to me...
gorzan 03-11-05, 07:48 PM	For a campaign I ran once, I had a recurring bad guy (recurring over a period of several hundred years) who was human. He had an amulet that extended his natural lifetime by [large amount], one of a pair of amulets that a deity once gave to a sibling hero pair who had saved the world (origin of amulet not really interesting here). Anyhow, seeing as humans are wonderfully adaptable for most anything, they are also my favourite badguys. To have a big community of them living underground..hmm..just put a bunch of slavecrowns on them and have the BBEG mindcontrol them all using some great mind-control artifact? Or use subterrainian monster races with int>5 who plan to take over the world? ..my creativity is broken. I am too tired. SOrry about the rant :P
thugmeister 03-11-05, 08:06 PM	So you're looking to set up an opposition which is bad enough to require full on smite to the head stoppage, but won't give anyone the shuddering heebie jeebies? Well chromatic dragons are choice here. They're long lived, evil, greedy and bad. They like to have hirelings and various servants do the dirty work. They have children ranging from young dragons and half dragon spawn lieutenants to take care of the lower CR levels. Since they either bribe you, cow you into submission, or kill you, they aren't creepy. I personally favor creepy evil bad guys. The creepier the better. But my youngest player is 28.
Callista 03-11-05, 08:12 PM	So you're looking to set up an opposition which is bad enough to require full on smite to the head stoppage, but won't give anyone the shuddering heebie jeebies? Exactly. :) Yes, this player is rather young. And a phobia doesn't make someone immature, or unable to tell fantasy from reality... it just means something creeps them out really bad. Buuut... well... Dragon is a good choice for BBEG, but I don't really see a bunch of dragons living together. They'd be slaying each other for the treasure, for sure, long before the PCs got around to doing it. I'd have to fudge dragon age categories a little; but that's OK--my players don't memorize the MM and dragons in my world are known to be long-lived by pretty much any peasant (as in Bardic Knowledge DC 10...). Sooo then... What about minions?
LukiLoki 03-11-05, 08:18 PM	Sorry. I don't really have much to add. But I got a chuckle out of the idea that, if a player was afraid of undead, that an Illithid would be just peachy... I mean, they're monsters. They're supposed to be scary.
diaboli 03-11-05, 08:34 PM	Exactly. :) Sooo then... What about minions? Kobolds: They would/should jump at the chance to serve a dragon. Even more so a family of dragons. They will practically worship them. Goblins: Typcial underground dwellers Dwarves: Evil dwarves (dueragar) Myconid: mushroom people Sverniblin (sp?): Deep gnomes Quaggoth: race of underground catlike folk (see Monsters of Faerun)
Disruptive Idiot 03-11-05, 08:39 PM	Dragons are the cream of the crop when it comes to BBEGs. They can pretty much obtain anything they need, can bully any type of monster into serving them, and generally are violent and wrathful. Get the Draconimicon if you don't have it yet, it will really give you some awesome ideas for a dragon villain. Red dragons make the best violent BBEGs, Green the best mastermind BBEGs. My favorite type however is Blue :) They're lawful and won't actively go out to wreak havoc, but you could set up interesting encounters with one in a desert campaign.
Megrim_Lord 03-11-05, 08:45 PM	Exactly. :) Yes, this player is rather young. And a phobia doesn't make someone immature, or unable to tell fantasy from reality... it just means something creeps them out really bad. Buuut... well... Dragon is a good choice for BBEG, but I don't really see a bunch of dragons living together. They'd be slaying each other for the treasure, for sure, long before the PCs got around to doing it. I'd have to fudge dragon age categories a little; but that's OK--my players don't memorize the MM and dragons in my world are known to be long-lived by pretty much any peasant (as in Bardic Knowledge DC 10...). Sooo then... What about minions? Actually, even evil dragons can function together well, it's just rather uncommon. How old do you want the creature to be?
Salla 03-11-05, 08:45 PM	Sorry. I don't really have much to add. But I got a chuckle out of the idea that, if a player was afraid of undead, that an Illithid would be just peachy... I mean, they're monsters. They're supposed to be scary. There's a line here, though. There's 'scary and enhances the story', and 'scary and detracts from the fun'. If the monster is going to do the latter, then you shouldn't play it. All you're doing is pushing your player's buttons. Pushing a character's buttons is usually acceptable, but you shouldn't be trying to aggravate your players. If this person has an actual anxiety about such things, it isn't a matter of maturity. It's a mental condition. Not a severe mental condition, but it's a mental condition nonetheless. It would be horribly bad form to inflict mental anguish on the player. If you know that someone is terrified of snakes, would you drop a rubber snake on their shoulder, knowing that it's going to freak them out (presuming you care about this person's well-being, of course). I'm sure this person doesn't believe for a moment that undead are real; however, the human psyche is a deep, incomprehensible and confusing thing. If the subject matter in your game is going to bother, offend, or disturb one of your players, best not to introduce it. Remember, we're here to have fun. Doesn't matter how cool your idea is; if it's going to detract from the overall fun, don't do it.
Johnny3D3D 03-11-05, 08:52 PM	The dragon idea seems pretty decent. Personally, I like Fang Dragons, but any should do, and I support the idea of Kobold minions. Half-Fang Kobolds would be fairly tough in melee combat. If you don't have the Draconomicon, any core dragon should do just as well; I'm simply trying to shamelessly plug one of my favorite creatures.
Wizard 03-11-05, 08:55 PM	Hey, I remember being afraid of vampires. Granted, I was in fourth grade, but still. And after a roommate and I saw The Grudge a few months ago, we figured that gee, the couches were softer than we thought, maybe we'd sleep on them instead of in something with covers that night*? Dragons are the way to go. Because if you really think about them, illithids are pretty dang scary. *If you've seen the movie, I think you'll understand.
clarkvalentine 03-11-05, 08:55 PM	At any rate, I need some alternatives. I want a BBEG who's capable of living a long time; elf is a little too short... I want a group of creatures that can form an underground community and serve said BBEG... I've thought of Drow... I'm considering illithids... I'm even thinking of various aberrations and a planar rift... I'm just not sure what will work. How about this: A standard run-of-the-mill human, but one who annoyed the wrong god three thousand years ago and was given the curse of immortality. Perhaps the human soul begins to ache to pass on to the next world after a few centuries, and he simply can't die. So, as time has gone by, a decent human being has become bitter, twisted, evil, and very very powerful.
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 08:59 PM	Ah, I know how she feels. I'm arachnaphobic. Something with that many legs just shouldn't be that coordinated. Anyhow, as many people have told you, dragons make excellent enemies. As for minions... Younger dragons, and "weaker" races, such as kobolds and goblins and what have you. But give these minions class levels, of course.
Callista 03-11-05, 09:25 PM	*laughs* Kobolds... Ah, I'd love to see the look on their faces when they march into their first kobold lair... The Rogue will be earning her money's worth, that's sure! I think I'll put some in just for that, even if I don't have them as main minions... I don't have the Draconomicon, but I think I can cook up something with the normal group of dragons. Main monster books... lessee... Monsters of Faerun, MM, MMII, Fiend Folio. BoVD too, but I won't be using that, except possibly for one or two spells-as-plot-devices (I need NPCs under mind control and some of those will do it...). Too much of a creepy factor otherwise though. How long said creature needs to live: I would say about a thousand years. Long enough for a thriving-but-evil metropolis-of-powerful-ancient-creatures to turn into ruins, completely disappear, and have a small village built atop it. Actually, I can turn that into less time, if I want, by changing the history of the place a little--say, actively destroying the old city rather than just having the "civilization decline" I'd been planning on. Actually, come to think of it, I could use a dynasty of creatures just as well. They'd have to have long memories, though, so either elf or dragon or some other long-lived race, I think. Drow... Hmm... Not too creepy, I think, but thoroughly evil... *plots*... Maybe they're actually allied to the dragon (and the kobolds) because the dragon would kill them if they tried to kill its minions... *plots some more*
Megrim_Lord 03-11-05, 09:38 PM	How about an age 500-590 Male Old Black Dragon (CR 16) as your main BBEG and his Female Adult Black Dragon (CR 11) consort, plus his Juvenile Black Dragon (CR 7) eldest son and two Young Black Dragon (CR 5) younger daughters along with a vast array of hired mercenaries such as 1st-2nd level kobolds & goblins commanded by 3rd level Orcs and Half Orcs who in turn are commanded by their mercenary captain, an Ogre Mage and his two Ogre bodyguards/second & third in commands.
Wizard 03-11-05, 09:39 PM	...As a side note, you may want to mention the whole no-undead thing to any prospective clerics, pallies, or necros.
Callista 03-11-05, 09:43 PM	No problem there... we have no cleric or paladin (healing comes from a Bard and a Druid) and none of my players seem inclined towards playing necromancers.
Vatras 03-11-05, 10:44 PM	1) Psionic Immortality Your BBEg is a psion or other creature with telepathic powers, who achieves relative immortality by acquiring new bodies periodically (Mind Seed, Mind Switch, Magic Jar and demonic possession as described in the BoVD all work for this, as might Clone). Since we talk about a NPC with a class and maybe a PrC, you can easily adapt for the given CRs. 2) Going esoteric Let the BBEG have hide his heart someplace else, and while it remains there, he remains untouched by time (features in several films, novels and even some old modules from 1st Edition). 3) Use Reincarnation The BBEG is actually living on in his offspring, thereby granting some form of immortality. A good race for secret societies are the Yuan-ti, who live among human societies, working to subvert them by psychic powers, magic and drugs. In some cases they try to convert the whole population into hybrids like themselves. The mindflayers, who are going to harvest another village for food and thralls are also good, but more powerful and dangerous. Their actual rulers/masters are the elder brains, who reside in large tanks in their communities. These brains have a life expectancy of thousands of years, and the unexpected death of one would throw the colony into chaos.
ehrin 03-12-05, 12:31 AM	The immortal cursed race was a good suggestion, or tie it into the Yuan-Ti, and make a semi immortal race of snakes, hydras, kobolds, etc. Also, did i miss demons and devils? why not get the lesser ones at first, up to the bigger ones. Sure, they don't usually exist on the same plane, but heck, it's DnD...
PaladinSix 03-12-05, 12:37 AM	this player is rather young. And a phobia doesn't make someone immature, or unable to tell fantasy from reality... it just means something creeps them out really bad. Hell, I'm 34 and I still get a serious case of the heebie-jeebies every time I watch a zombie flick (esp. George Romero's stuff). Come to think of it, Jaws does it to me as well, as do the original Halloween and Friday the 13th. Never underestimate the power of the human imagination to freak out its owner. the human psyche is a deep, incomprehensible and confusing thing. Especially among the people who spend as much time with this 'hobby' as we do. As far as a replacement for the undead, I like the dragon idea. I would suggest using trolls as the minions. There is less of a gap between the BBEG and the little guys, and trolls scale very well. Add a couple levels of fighter or barbarian and they get really tough. Make a few of them rangers or clerics and they can almost be BBEGs in their own right.
artman 03-12-05, 12:54 AM	There has to be a way to use this phobia without damaging the player mentally. If I knew that a player of mine was afraid of let's say lycanthropes, you had better believe that the BBEG will be a were-something, so long as I know that the player is not going to go nuts or have a panic attack. Getting a real reaction fromt eh players is a good thing in the game. I love it when the player, not just the character, starts to HATE a NPC. Anytimne you can get this real reaction from a player I say that it is a good thing. Talk to her, find out how bad it really is. If she is just afraid that she might have nightmares with very little cahnce of actually having them, then ask her if you can use some undead. You say that she is not immature. It's a leap but I'm going to infer from this that she is mature. If this is true, the player shoudl be able to handle it. What better way to get over a fear of undead than to slaughter them wholesale.
DM Denubis 03-12-05, 01:51 AM	Eh... No offense, but that's not really a great idea. See, I've actually had to leave a gaming table due to the description of eight legged things that shall remain nameless. If someone has a phobia, it's NOT a good idea to mess with it.
Wizard 03-12-05, 02:07 AM	Yeah...there's a difference between a phobia and a general dislike. You really don't want to go messing with actual phobia without some psychological training.
Shadowmagyk 03-12-05, 02:23 AM	I keep seeing "Dragon" in each of the posts, but I think that a "Shadow Dragon" would be a good choice for this. If anyone remembers the fight for Mihtrall Hall in the Drizz't series, then you will see what I mean. The Shadow Dragon is negative energy, the same energy as Undead. No one would be expecting a Shadow Dragon, even if they suspect a dragon.
CJDragon 03-12-05, 04:54 AM	Is it all undead she's afraid of, or just human undead? Perhapse if you were to have Yuan-ti, orcs or any non-core race then she would just see them as the monsters they are rather than undead. It could be her fear is less of the fact that their undead, and more that their human undead, and so are too realistic for her liking. Its the same for me, the thought that, say, a vampire, was once human and now craves human blood.... well creeps me out majorly. So ask her whether making the undead a monstrous race would be ok, try it and if she still gets creeped out then go with dragons, as has been suggested. Don't have mind flayers though, they are pure evil, have mental powers that people are helpless against and rip the brains from a still living "snack". If she's scared of undead i don't think she'd react well to them too.
Andrew_980 03-12-05, 05:05 AM	I dont know if it is a lack of empathy or simply rationality but they should deal with there issuse or leave the fantasy alone. if a description of undead bothers her so much, perhaps watching the smurfs is a better plan. it is a group game, focus on the group. if they don't want to "sissify" the game then it is the one with the issue that has to deal or walk. maybe i'm just mean but thats my opinion
ShadowDragon8685 03-12-05, 05:05 AM	Start throwing Abberations at her, like Gibbering Mouthers, or Chaos Beasts. Be VERY vivid in your descriptions. By the time she's experianced those, a little good old fasioned Vampire will be par for the course for her, and she'll be right out there dispensing the holy smitage. :)
Callista 03-12-05, 12:53 PM	Oh, I've already planned on aberrations--at least for random encounters, and probably a few planned ones. Things are going to get very... aberration-ish... later on, when what's basically an intelligent artifact gets loose and starts destroying planar boundaries. Chaos beast... hehe... and I can't wait till I can get them in their first party-versus-Beholder fight! I shan't be *too* vivid at first, though. Got to get her used to these things slowly. That's how I got over my own undead-phobia, anyway--progressive desensitization... from reading about ancient Egypt when I was twelve, and having nightmares afterwards; to watching The Mummy only last year, at nineteen, without so much as a flinch... Maybe it's part of growing up, who knows? (Besides, that movie is kinda funny anyway.) But I'll keep the undead out of it, unless she tells me I can take the ban off. I want this to be fun, not psychology.
TinManFan 03-12-05, 02:42 PM	Pick up the fiend folio (ok, borrow it and xerox it, not worth the other 200 pages) and look at the Fiend PrC's. Demons and Devils are a lot better than undead for Multiple level encounters. You got sneaky corruptors, you got hunters and you got big bada$$es who do 300 hp dmg when they die. Add in the Fiend of Possession and yer gold. The King has lived for 1,500 years and ruled with an iron fist the whole time. Turns out the Crown he's wearing is possessed by a fiend who's been keeping him alive the whole time or something like that. Fiend of Corruption is nice. A Succubus who steals people's souls after making them fall into evil ways. Can set up an adventure to find a repentful former "Customer" of hers's soul. Need to get it back before he bites it. And the Fiend of Blasphemey is just plain mean. Think of every single bad movie cult and there ya go. A Cleric walkin around with a symbol the world ain't seen ebfore is sure to mess with poeple's heads.