Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jhosmer 10-10-06, 11:07 AM	I was designing an adventure for 6 level 2 PCs and decided to advance a monster. The adventure was full of aberrations, so I chose the choker. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) Because it was only CR 2, I thought I would push it up to a CR 4, to make it a tough guardian. (By my calculations, 6 level 2s are approximately equal to a EL 3 party.) I pored over the rules and advanced it, then placed it in a room. It proceeded to wipe the floor with the party. Part of that was the room, which had catwalks over lava, so it was easy for the choker to grapple, move, and drop the PC into the lava (especially with its quickness special ability.) But it still seemed a lot tougher than a CR 4. It's grapple and touch attack were unbeatable. So, where did I goof? Improved Choker CR 4 Medium Aberration Init: +6 Senses Darkvision 60ft; Spot +1 Listen +1 AC 17; Touch 11; Flatfooted 16 (+1 Dex, +6 natural), hp 78, HD 12d8+24, DR 0 Immunities SR Saves Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +12 Weaknesses Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), Climb 10 ft., Applicable Feats Tentacle +14 melee (1d6+5) 2 Tentacles +14 melee (1d6+5) 5 ft./5 ft. Base Attack, +9 Grp +18 Atk Options Improved Grab, Constrict Special Actions Improved grab, constrict 1d3+5, quickness Abilities Str 20, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 7 Feats Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Stealthy, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor x2 Skills Climb +15, Hide +9, Move Silently +5 Possessions None Hook Special abilities Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks, which is already included in the statistics block. Quickness (Su): Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round. Skills: A chokers has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened
orionm42 10-10-06, 11:24 AM	I was designing an adventure for 6 level 2 PCs and decided to advance a monster. The adventure was full of aberrations, so I chose the choker. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) Because it was only CR 2, I thought I would push it up to a CR 4, to make it a tough guardian. (By my calculations, 6 level 2s are approximately equal to a EL 3 party.) I pored over the rules and advanced it, then placed it in a room. It proceeded to wipe the floor with the party. Part of that was the room, which had catwalks over lava, so it was easy for the choker to grapple, move, and drop the PC into the lava (especially with its quickness special ability.) But it still seemed a lot tougher than a CR 4. It's grapple and touch attack were unbeatable. So, where did I goof? Improved Choker CR 4 Medium Aberration Init: +6 Senses Darkvision 60ft; Spot +1 Listen +1 AC 17; Touch 11; Flatfooted 16 (+1 Dex, +6 natural), hp 78, HD 12d8+24, DR 0 Immunities SR Saves Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +12 Weaknesses Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), Climb 10 ft., Applicable Feats Tentacle +14 melee (1d6+5) 2 Tentacles +14 melee (1d6+5) 5 ft./5 ft. Base Attack, +9 Grp +18 Atk Options Improved Grab, Constrict Special Actions Improved grab, constrict 1d3+5, quickness Abilities Str 20, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 7 Feats Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Stealthy, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor x2 Skills Climb +15, Hide +9, Move Silently +5 Possessions None Hook Special abilities Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks, which is already included in the statistics block. Quickness (Su): Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round. Skills: A chokers has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened Where you went wrong is you gave the creature 12HD (which is the maximum for the creature), a size AND strength AND constitution increase, and an increase in natural armor. Now I know these all follow the "improving monster" guidelines, but by giving the creature so many HD and a CON boost, you gave it very high hit points and essentially put it out of range of a group of level 2 PCs. Also, the difficulty with adding HD to improve a monster is it not only increases HD, but it also increases save bonuses. By going to 12 HD, you made the creature very difficult to hit with first level spells (which are all that are available to the second level PCs). And even when it is hit, it has the HP to survive. Finally, one really tough monster can be a problem for low level PCs (as opposed to several lower CR creatures).
jhosmer 10-10-06, 11:29 AM	Well, I advanced it by HD, which led to its increased size, which led to the strength increase. I followed the rules there, I think. According to the rules, an aberration's CR increased by 1 for every 4 HD added. What I want to know is if I made a mistake in applying the rules for advanceing a creature, or if the rules for advancing a creature are just FUBAR'd.
orionm42 10-10-06, 11:34 AM	Well, I advanced it by HD, which led to its increased size, which led to the strength increase. I followed the rules there, I think. According to the rules, an aberration's CR increased by 1 for every 4 HD added. I know. See my edits. I think the issue was the party level you were putting it up against. They only have access to first level spells and limited equipment. As I noted above, adding so many HD gave the creature high save bonuses and HP. The low level party simply could not do enough damage to the creature to kill it because of the changes. Would the creature have been appropriate for four 4th level PCs? I would say yes. Same with a group of third level PCs. But sending it against a group of second level PCs I think was too much because of the fact that one monster with a high CR relative to the party level can be more problematic than a higher number of lower CR monsters. Unfortunately, I am at work. So I can't pour over the creature to see if you made any technical mistakes. However, I think the error was conceptual.
PhaedrusXY 10-10-06, 11:34 AM	The fact that the environment gave the creature an advantage would bump its challenge rating up by a point or two, also. Level 2 characters are very fragile. You have to be quite careful with them.
orionm42 10-10-06, 11:41 AM	Deleted....
lears_fool 10-10-06, 11:50 AM	Well, I advanced it by HD, which led to its increased size, which led to the strength increase. I followed the rules there, I think. According to the rules, an aberration's CR increased by 1 for every 4 HD added. What I want to know is if I made a mistake in applying the rules for advanceing a creature, or if the rules for advancing a creature are just FUBAR'd. I wouldn't say so much that the rules are FUBAR'd as I would that the rules are too simple to really incorporate all the variances that exist in the game. In this case, the strength and size bonuses were huge perks for a grappling creature and certain special abilities (like the choker's quickness!) can scale up disproportionately quickly. And the CR definitely should've been knocked up a notch for creating a situation where the creature's preferred tactic was a big advantage. The rules are good as guidelines, but usually I try to do a little 'mini-combat' for a reality check. Just comparing the abilities that are likely to be used. In this case it'd have helped out quite a bit I think.
jhosmer 10-10-06, 12:00 PM	Thanks for all the comments. :D Well, DMing is an art, and the only way to get better is to practice it. I'll definitely wait until my players are higher level before trying to advance any more creatures. Still, everything worked out well in the end. No PC died (tho the cleric had to quickly climb down a rope to heal a character who fell into the lava and was knocked unconcious.) The PCs managed to run away to fight another day, and the mystery that the choker was guarding remains for them to explore later.
orionm42 10-10-06, 12:02 PM	The PCs managed to run away to fight another day, and the mystery that the choker was guarding remains for them to explore later. A party that actually runs away when they are overmatched...:confused: Never heard of such a thing!! :D
Arganis 10-10-06, 12:05 PM	Because of its quickness ability, the Choker is an extremely powerful CR 2 creature. Advancing the choker by the rules (which you did) should result in a CR 4. However, for many of the reasons mentioned above, the actual figure was likely a 5. The lava pit you describe is hand-tailored to work to the Choker's strengths rather than merely provide an advantage to the defender. It warrants an EL +2. That's a weak EL 7. So, defeat should have been expected.
jhosmer 10-10-06, 12:07 PM	A party that actually runs away when they are overmatched...:confused: Never heard of such a thing!! :D They were quite resistant to the idea. They kept saying each round that they should run, but no one wanted to be the first to leave the room. So another PC got dropped in the lava and the fight continued. It was only after one of them fell unconscious in the lava that they finally managed to break off the fight. I let them go, though the choker did make some insulting gestures and sounds at them as they left. They really hate that choker now. :)
Arganis 10-10-06, 12:53 PM	They were quite resistant to the idea. They kept saying each round that they should run, but no one wanted to be the first to leave the room. So another PC got dropped in the lava and the fight continued. It was only after one of them fell unconscious in the lava that they finally managed to break off the fight. I let them go, though the choker did make some insulting gestures and sounds at them as they left. They really hate that choker now. :) Now give the Choker a class level since it defeated the PCs, so when they come back it's got a new trick up its sleeve. :D
Kradlo 10-10-06, 01:32 PM	Read page 302 of the Monster Manual regarding ambush creatures, like the choker. Creatures that attack from ambush (including the choker) should have a CR of 1/2 their HD to their HD. So, your advanced choker would be anywhere from CR 6 to CR 12. I'd put it nearer to the CR 6 end, perhaps CR 7. The Grapple bonus moves your advanced choker from being a threat to being an absolute killer against ECL 2 characters. A raging half-orc barbarian 2 with Str 24 will have a +9 Grapple bonus, which is still toast against this creature, especially with its Quickness ability. Also, you did not adjust the constriction damage for the size and Strength increase, so it should deal 1d6+5 damage for constriction. Initiative should be +5, not +6 (Dex, Improved Initiative). The saves are incorrect as well. The saves should be Fort +6, Reflex +7, Will +9. When adjusting size, remember that the choker's Hide bonus is partly based on a +4 Size bonus for being Small. Advancing in HD will gain extra skill points (2 + Int bonus per HD, minimum 1 per HD), so it would have 9 extra skill points to compensate. Improved Grab allows the creature to begin a grapple as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A Small choker can grapple a creature of Large size or smaller; your Medium choker should be able to grapple a Huge creature. The Improved Grab ability allows the creature the choice of using only the attacking limb to grapple, but it takes a -20 penalty on its Grapple checks. If it does so, then the creature is not itself considered grappled, and so does not lose Dex bonuses to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other characters (MM, pg 310). Normally you can't move while grappled. You can make an opposed Grapple check to move half your movement speed, taking your opponent with you. With the advanced choker's Grapple bonus and Quickness, that's not an issue. Thus, it could climb 5 feet with a successful Grapple check while dragging its victim with it. Using Quickness, it could make two Grapple checks per round, easily winning both, to climb 10 feet. In a round or two, it would be in position to drop a character into the lava. With 12 Hit Dice and 78 hit points, it could easily survive the attacks of the PCs while it did this.
olshanski_home 10-10-06, 01:45 PM	Against larger parties, it is better to increase the number of opponents rather than ramp up the CR of a single opponent. Whenever you have a party going up against a creature with a much higher CR than the average party level, you run the risk of the party simply not being able to handle the challenge at all. A choker normally has 3HD. You increased it by 9 HD. Since aberrations increase CR at a rate of 1 per 4HD, you've increased the CR by 2.25. (many people round this up to 3.. especially since your 9th HD that you added from (11 to 12 HD) gave it an ability boost, an extra +1 BAB, better saves, and an extra feat. [The increase from 11 to 12 HD is far better than the increase from 10 to 11HD. Going from 10HD to 11HD doesn't give the BAB, Feat, Ability boost, or saves] The increase in size is also worth another +1 to CR, as per the rules for advancement. A CR increase for size is calculated independant of the increase for HD. So this is something you completely failed to add. So, your CR4 is actually at least CR 5.25, but many would say it is a solid CR6. You then have your single creature, that is ~3 CR higher than the party would be expected to deal with, and gave it optimum terrain. It is no suprise that the party was wasted. You'd have been better off just using 2 normal CR2 chokers. That is a real CR4 challenge and much more appropriate to a larger group of low level PCs.
Epicweaver 10-10-06, 01:52 PM	Hrmmm... 78hp, ac17, +12 attack 2 tentacles 1d6+5? I think the guy was a little too optimized for a group too low to fight him. Plus, forcing them to fight in unfavorable terrain (catwalks with lava) made it even worse... The EL was at least +2 because of terrain. CR4 -> EL6... Against a EL=3 party? That's a significant hump for a second level party (who presumably aren't even fully rested).... Maybe they could have dealt with the choker if the terrain was less favorable to the choker. You're optimized twohand Ftr2 has 24hp max, +7 to hit, 2d6+6 damage with a grapple of +5. Yeah, it's next to impossible for any combatant without high strength and improved grapple to touch handle this thing in melee... and with a easy drag and drop into lava mechanic? Sheesh, I'm glad your party was smart enough to run from the TPK.
orionm42 10-10-06, 02:02 PM	The increase in size is also worth another +1 to CR, as per the rules for advancement. ...only if size increases to large or larger. The creature in question is still medium size.
olshanski_home 10-10-06, 02:49 PM	regarding increasing a creature size=increase in CR: ...only if size increases to large or larger. The creature in question is still medium size. Yes, Orion, you are correct. In general, increasing the size of a small or tiny creature doesn't help its combat ability much, since it is losing Dex ad AC. In this case, the choker relies on strength and grapples, and thus any increase in size is a huge benefit. This is a pretty clear case where the choker becomes much more dangerous with increased size, and warrants an increase in CR:
orionm42 10-10-06, 03:11 PM	In this case, the choker relies on strength and grapples, and thus any increase in size is a huge benefit. No doubt about this. I also agree with your statement that increasing the creature by 9HD would result in a CR adjustment of greater than two. I have always interpreted the "increase CR by 1 per 4HD" to imply any increment of 4. So, I likely would have rounded the CR up to 5 for the HD change alone. When combined with the increase in STR and CON, I think a CR of at least 5 is justified in this case.
Epicweaver 10-10-06, 03:17 PM	No doubt about this. I also agree with your statement that increasing the creature by 9HD would result in a CR adjustment of greater than two. I have always interpreted the "increase CR by 1 per 4HD" to imply any increment of 4. So, I likely would have rounded the CR up to 5 for the HD change alone. When combined with the increase in STR and CON, I think a CR of at least 5 is justified in this case. I think the actual amount of CR increase should be related to the level of the party... Since it started with 3HD to the parties average 2HD... a 4hd boost is appropriate for +1 CR... But +9? That's definately worth +3 CR. And I further agree with olshanski_home about the size increase justifying an additional CR bump... So I'd put the thing at CR6... in extremely dangerous, favorable terrain? EL+2. That's a EL8 encounter to toss at a level 2 party.... Totally nuts.
orionm42 10-10-06, 03:36 PM	... in extremely dangerous, favorable terrain? I also agree with you and others that the EL was higher because the terrain suited the creature's favored tactics. All in all, this was a real tough one for the PCs.
jhosmer 10-10-06, 03:51 PM	That's a EL8 encounter to toss at a level 2 party.... Totally nuts. Sheesh, I knew I overpowered it... but I didn't think that it was twice as powerful as I thought. Well, won't do that again....
olshanski_home 10-10-06, 04:08 PM	Sheesh, I knew I overpowered it... but I didn't think that it was twice as powerful as I thought. Well, won't do that again.... An EL8 is not twice as powerful as a EL4. I believe each doubling in strength is +2 to EL, so your EL8 is actually 4x stronger than an EL4.
orionm42 10-10-06, 04:16 PM	Sheesh, I knew I overpowered it... but I didn't think that it was twice as powerful as I thought. Well, won't do that again.... As someone else noted, it is usually helpful to review comparable monsters when assessing CR. For instance, check out the Chuul. It is a large aberration with 11HD, similar saves and stats. Now the Chuul has more HP and deals more damage per attack (2d6+5), but your creature has a greater chance to hit with +14 on his melee attack bonus. The Chuul's large size would generally give it an advantage over your creature because of its added reach and additional grappling bonus. But your creature has a higher grapple modifier because of a racial bonus. The real advantages the Chuul has over your monster are the damage dealt on regular and constrict attacks, the paralytic tentacles, and a higher AC. These, however, are pretty substantial advantages. All in all, if the Chuul is a 7, your creature might very well be a 6 or a 7 after factoring in the terrain advantage. I would probably call it a 6.
PhaedrusXY 10-10-06, 04:23 PM	It sounds like it went fine. The party doesn't have to be able to defeat every monster they happen to run into. Noone's character died, and they can come back later when they feel stronger. At least they were wise enough to retreat.
orionm42 10-10-06, 04:58 PM	deleted again. The choker has reach.
orionm42 10-10-06, 05:13 PM	Alright...I thought about it again and I need to repost the question. I was thinking about this... ...so it was easy for the choker to grapple, move, and drop the PC into the lava (especially with its quickness special ability.) Technically, I am not sure how this worked. Under the grappling rules, two grappling characters must occupy the same space. If this is the case, and if both creatures are medium size, how did the choker manage to move the PC into a position over the lava while he remained on the bridge? I understand the choker has reach, but I am not sure the grappling rules permit the two characters to occupy different spaces. In other words, I don't think the choker could have simply extended its arms and then let go. In order to disengage from a grapple, you must escape. The choker could have escaped the grapple by winning an opposed grapple check, but then the choker would have moved into a space of his choosing. However, he could not dictate where the other player ended up. If both players were always on solid ground, the player would still be on solid ground when the grapple ended. I'd be curious to know the original ruling and others' thoughts on whether this was a valid tactic.
Zerchai 10-10-06, 05:56 PM	I don't know if this is what the DM did, but if you're pinning an opponent, then you can throw that opponent with a Strength check. I think it was explained in the "All About Grappling" article on the main site.
Rhomphaia 10-10-06, 08:15 PM	Let's look over specifics of where you went wrong. Because it was only CR 2, I thought I would push it up to a CR 4, to make it a tough guardian. This is overpowered for the party, with the size and Strength increase. Under normal circumstances, this would be almost unbeatable for a group of level 2's, even six of them. Part of that was the room, which had catwalks over lava, so it was easy for the choker to grapple, move, and drop the PC into the lava (especially with its quickness special ability.) But it still seemed a lot tougher than a CR 4. It's grapple and touch attack were unbeatable. So, where did I goof? Specifically, you confused CR with EL. The CR of the creature may have been a 4 (which I disagree with) but the environments around the encounter were much higher, thus raising the Encounter Level much higher. I would say to somewhere in the 8-10 range. This is because at this point, the PCs have no chance to defend against the grapple and in this environment, they are dead the round after the grapple. No save. Also, putting a group of orcs on a catwalk where falls into lava are possible adds excitement and danger. Putting this sort of creature in the same area isn't adding excitement. It's adding player frustration. Playing with advanced creatures is tricky, but I hope you learned from this mistake and somehow reset things or just start a new game. Oh, and about the CR 4... Improved Choker CR 4...(snipped) This is NOT a CR 4 creature. I'd put it about at 6. Just like that damn crab, it is under CR'ed.
pukunui 10-10-06, 08:54 PM	Well, I advanced it by HD, which led to its increased size, which led to the strength increase. I followed the rules there, I think. According to the rules, an aberration's CR increased by 1 for every 4 HD added. What I want to know is if I made a mistake in applying the rules for advanceing a creature, or if the rules for advancing a creature are just FUBAR'd.I think the only mistake you made was that you advanced the choker too much. I too recently ran an adventure that included a choker, but I decided to advance it because my players had been mopping the floor with everything they'd encountered so far and I wanted to give them more of a challenge. I only advanced it to 6HD, so it was still only CR 2 and stayed the same size, but it had more HP so it couldn't be killed with only one hit (one of the PCs in my group is a greataxe-wielding, power-attacking dwarf fighter who had, up until the choker, killed just about everything with one hit - admittedly, everything up to that point had been orcs and a ghoul, but still ... he was only level 2 at the time). The choker didn't kill anyone in my party ... and they managed to kill it after the beguiler whelmed it into unconsciousness and it fell off the ceiling ... however, it lasted a lot longer than all of the previous monsters in the adventure and was therefore a success, in my book. It gave the party a bit of a shock, too (as well as surprising my most experienced player, who also DMs and is therefore very familiar with the critters in the MM and wasn't expecting this encounter to be so tough). So yeah, you did nothing wrong by advancing the choker. I just think you advanced it too far. Plus, putting it in an environment more advantageous to it than the PCs didn't help your party any, either. I agree with the others that the environment actually increased the EL way beyond what a party of level 2 PCs should be able to handle. If you'd advanced the choker only a little bit or else put it in a room with no holes in the floor, then it probably would have been more of a fair fight.
Hydryh 10-10-06, 08:55 PM	Now give the Choker a class level since it defeated the PCs, so when they come back it's got a new trick up its sleeve. :D Maybe Monk? :devil:
pukunui 10-10-06, 09:04 PM	Here's my 6HD advanced choker, in case you're interested ... CR 2 Small Abberation (4 ft. 2 in. tall) HD 6d8+6; hp 33 (wounded, currently 30 hp) Init +6 (Improved Initiative) Spd 20 ft., climb 10 ft. AC 17 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15 Atk +8 (1d3+3 [x2], tentacle); Grp +7 Reach 10 ft. SA constrict 1d3+3 SQ Darkvision 60 ft, quickness AL CE SV Fort +3, Ref +6, Wil +6 Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 7 Skills and Feats: Climb +13, Hide +10, Move Silently +9; Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Stealthy I took what was written in the adventure (the free 3.0 cliffhangers "Unearthing the Past" module) and advanced it using e-Tools, so I take no responsibility for any errors or 3.0 rules leftovers.
Kradlo 10-10-06, 09:21 PM	A 3 HD choker is CR 2. Your 6 HD advanced choker should be a CR 3 to CR 4. As I stated earlier, the Monster Manual (pg 302) lists Ambush creatures (such as the choker) as CR ranging from one-half its HD up to its HD, so a 6 HD choker would be CR 3-6.
pukunui 10-10-06, 09:26 PM	A 3 HD choker is CR 2. Your 6 HD advanced choker should be a CR 3 to CR 4. As I stated earlier, the Monster Manual (pg 302) lists Ambush creatures (such as the choker) as CR ranging from one-half its HD up to its HD, so a 6 HD choker would be CR 3-6. That may be so, but at the time I just went with what e-Tools said - and it hadn't changed the CR at all - and the advanced wasn't a big problem for my group. I realize e-Tools doesn't necessarily get everything right (I've got my share of problems with it), but it's quicker than doing all the math and stuff myself ... Still, I don't think my advanced choker was overpowered for my party. There was never any real threat of it killing any of the PCs. I found that once the choker grappled the druid's animal companion and started choking it, it more or less became a sitting duck. Maybe I didn't play it right, but I was happy because the choker lasted more than one round, and the players were happy because they killed it without anyone getting too terribly hurt. If I hadn't advanced it, it most likely would have been dead after one hit from the dwarf fighter ...
olshanski_home 10-10-06, 11:24 PM	I'd be curious to know the original ruling and others' thoughts on whether this was a valid tactic. First: you can move a grapple by succeeding with a grapple check against anyone who would oppose the grapple being moved. You move at half speed... so the grapple can be moved. I personally have a few "tweaks" to grapple rules. Call them house rules... they are absolutely minor rules, but they make the game much more palatable. 1) Initiating a grapple: If you grapple a creature your size or larger, you must move into its space to initiate the grapple. If you initiate a grapple with a creature smaller than you, you can choose to pull it into your space. 2) Ejecting someone from a grapple:* You can eject someone from a grapple by making a grapple check opposed by all grapplers that don't want the character ejected. When you eject someone from a grapple, you can choose to place the ejected character in any space within your natural reach. *normally, when you pin a creature, you can "release" the grapple. I've simply made it a bit more pro-active and useful for throwing and moving opponents. Some of the wording I've used is necessary if you want to "rescue" an ally from a grapple... such as a bear that is mauling a wizard, and then a fighter dives into the grapple and tries to rescue the wizard. In this case, if the fighter's grapple beats the bear, he can eject the wizard to any adjacent space. (the wizard would presumably not oppose getting ejected from the grapple).
TheWerg 10-11-06, 12:43 AM	Sheesh, I knew I overpowered it... but I didn't think that it was twice as powerful as I thought. Well, won't do that again.... On the contrary, I think you should do it again. You did the right thing in coming to the forums when something went wrong, seeking advice. You now recognize your mistakes and, I assume, understand how to do it right. The only way a DM gets better is through practice (and hitting the WADMTD Forums ;))
orionm42 10-11-06, 10:51 AM	First: you can move a grapple by succeeding with a grapple check against anyone who would oppose the grapple being moved. You move at half speed... so the grapple can be moved.... I agree that your house rules would allow the choker to determine the position of the ejected grappler. However, would you agree the RAW does not permit that? Also, with respect to voluntarily releasing the pinned opponent, again, the choker cannot move into a position of releasing the pin and having the player fall into the lava without also falling in because the two need to occupy the same space at all times before the grapple ends. By RAW, I am not sure the DM handled this correctly. With that said, I was unaware of this... I don't know if this is what the DM did, but if you're pinning an opponent, then you can throw that opponent with a Strength check. I think it was explained in the "All About Grappling" article on the main site. While apparently not RAW (I don't believe this is in the PHB...I also don't think this is in the SRD), this would resolve the issue I have. Unfortunately, I am at work now and that section of the website is filtered. I'll check it out tonight when I get home. Thanks for the reference Zerchai!
olshanski_home 10-11-06, 10:59 AM	I agree that your house rules would allow the choker to determine the position of the ejected grappler. However, would you agree the RAW does not permit that? Also, with respect to voluntarily releasing the pinned opponent, again, the choker cannot move into a position of releasing the pin and having the player fall into the lava without also falling in because the two need to occupy the same space at all times before the grapple Raw does not permit a grappler to determine the position of a released opponent. For some creatures, like a spider, I imagine that I might allow a large enough spider to grapple a character, and then "move the grapple" at half speed by succeeding on a climb check, or better yet, the spider could hang from its web. If the spider was positioned in its web over a pit of lava, then I would permit the spider to release the grapple, and since the spider was attached via its web or natural climbing ability, it could remain attached to the web while the dropped foe would naturally fall into the lava. So, this is a conceivable tactic. What I don't see using the rules is how a choker could climb into such a position of hovering over the lava (while still hanging on the ceiling), and then drop a character into the lava.
orionm42 10-11-06, 11:31 AM	Raw does not permit a grappler to determine the position of a released opponent. For some creatures, like a spider, I imagine that I might allow a large enough spider to grapple a character, and then "move the grapple" at half speed by succeeding on a climb check, or better yet, the spider could hang from its web. If the spider was positioned in its web over a pit of lava, then I would permit the spider to release the grapple, and since the spider was attached via its web or natural climbing ability, it could remain attached to the web while the dropped foe would naturally fall into the lava. So, this is a conceivable tactic. What I don't see using the rules is how a choker could climb into such a position of hovering over the lava (while still hanging on the ceiling), and then drop a character into the lava. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking two dimensionally again. All this time, I assumed the player and the choker were both on the bridge and the choker was "extending his tentacles" to hold the PC over the lava. It did not occur to me the DM may have ruled the choker climbed to a position of hovering over the lava while still grappling with the character. However, as you infer, the choker still needs to succeed on a climb check and must have two “hands” free in order to climb. I agree he probably could not climb and grapple at the same time because of the “two hands free” climbing rule.
White_Wizard 10-11-06, 12:10 PM	I was designing an adventure for 6 level 2 PCs and decided to advance a monster. The adventure was full of aberrations, so I chose the choker. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm) Because it was only CR 2, I thought I would push it up to a CR 4, to make it a tough guardian. (By my calculations, 6 level 2s are approximately equal to a EL 3 party.) I pored over the rules and advanced it, then placed it in a room. It proceeded to wipe the floor with the party. Part of that was the room, which had catwalks over lava, so it was easy for the choker to grapple, move, and drop the PC into the lava (especially with its quickness special ability.) But it still seemed a lot tougher than a CR 4. It's grapple and touch attack were unbeatable. So, where did I goof? Improved Choker CR 4 Medium Aberration Init: +6 Senses Darkvision 60ft; Spot +1 Listen +1 AC 17; Touch 11; Flatfooted 16 (+1 Dex, +6 natural), hp 78, HD 12d8+24, DR 0 Immunities SR Saves Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +12 Weaknesses Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), Climb 10 ft., Applicable Feats Tentacle +14 melee (1d6+5) 2 Tentacles +14 melee (1d6+5) 5 ft./5 ft. Base Attack, +9 Grp +18 Atk Options Improved Grab, Constrict Special Actions Improved grab, constrict 1d3+5, quickness Abilities Str 20, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 7 Feats Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Stealthy, Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor x2 Skills Climb +15, Hide +9, Move Silently +5 Possessions None Hook Special abilities Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks, which is already included in the statistics block. Quickness (Su): Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round. Skills: A chokers has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened I think that the failure of this encounter was due to several factors. First of all, maybe the player had to play it better or more tactically (75% of the times this is a serius cause of adventurers' sudden and tragic death). Second: the room above a lava pit with catwalks seems to be a lot tough for a party of 2nd-ies: next time just make it a bigger spiked pit trap and add it's CR to that of the unmodified monster. A 20 ft deep spiked trap is a CR 2, plus a choker (CR 2) you have a decent CR 4 (the choker needs to be just slightly enhanced, like maxing out his HDs and/or given another one or two; then play it wisely and the PCs will face a thrilling encounter). The third thing is that advancing a monster often means loosing control over it. When you do be sure that you are reaching the exact power level you wish. I had to learn it when DMing 3.0 which had a lot less information about advancing monsters. 3.5 provides much more help. Try out the advanced monster against a similar "virtual" party in a brief encounter played by yourself (you don't have to get through the entire thing, just make a few rounds and look how things go). If you know PCs stat blocks it's best to use them. Things you have to determine during these virtual encounter are: how easily the monster hits the best AC in the party, how easily the average attack modifier in the party hits the monter's AC, which spells at the party's hand are most effective and why (a grease spell can be devastating in such a situation), how many hits need the party's average blow to knock the monster out and how much blows the monster would need to knock out the party's toughest character. The greatest danger at low levels in such encounters is to fall down: checks are made with an average modifier of +6, without counting armor check penalties, so take for sure that one or two characters might fall down (and a 20 ft deep spiked trap means very bad news at 2nd level, especially if a monster id beat them up before) and think about a way to climb up again (like walls that are easy to climb or a maintenance ladder). Again: try monsters out, I find it's one of the most useful things a DM can do for his games.
Cifer 10-11-06, 12:26 PM	Hmmm. I guess I was thinking two dimensionally again. All this time, I assumed the player and the choker were both on the bridge and the choker was "extending his tentacles" to hold the PC over the lava. It did not occur to me the DM may have ruled the choker climbed to a position of hovering over the lava while still grappling with the character. However, as you infer, the choker still needs to succeed on a climb check and must have two “hands” free in order to climb. I agree he probably could not climb and grapple at the same time because of the “two hands free” climbing rule. I'm not quite sure about the hands-business in this case. A choker is an aberration and even possesses a climb speed after all - its feet may be enough for it, especially if it goes for the grapple-with-one-appendage rule. By the way, I'm reasonably certain OP did not use the standard lava rules, under which immersion (which probably is what the choker aims for) deals 20D6 damage per round...
orionm42 10-11-06, 01:18 PM	I'm not quite sure about the hands-business in this case. A choker is an aberration and even possesses a climb speed after all - its feet may be enough for it, especially if it goes for the grapple-with-one-appendage rule... I agree this is debatable. My point was based on 2 quotes from the SRD. Under "modes of movement".. Climb: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing... and under the climb skill... You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. Your suggestion about the aberration being able to use its feet to either grapple or climb may in fact be correct. In any event, it is an interesting theoretical discussion! :)
Judging Eagle 10-11-06, 01:31 PM	Wow, just wow. I'm guessing you've now realized that the best way to challenge larger parties is merely to use more enemies at a time, right? Throwing in something with 12 HD (78 hp in one creature) vs 6 lvl 2's should have hinted at at least if not more PCs dying. Something with more than 50 HP but less than 80-90 with no real special abilities and poor combat ones comes in around CR 4-5 (like a medium zombie, maybe a large one); throw in some pretty powerful abilites (1 extra move or standard action) and decent combat ablities will increase the CR even more than that. In any case, using two chokers with 5-6 HD each would have been a better choice. Just don't throw them both at the same time unless you want a longer and harder than average fight.
jhosmer 10-12-06, 08:58 AM	I just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in on this topic. I totally underestimated the lethality of this creature in its "natural environment." :) Well, live and learn. I gave all my players a little bonus for putting up with my mistake, and I think it's not a bad thing for them to learn that there are some encounters you should just run away from. Thanks again.
Judging Eagle 10-12-06, 10:00 AM	I just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in on this topic. I totally underestimated the lethality of this creature in its "natural environment." :) Well, live and learn. I gave all my players a little bonus for putting up with my mistake, and I think it's not a bad thing for them to learn that there are some encounters you should just run away from. Thanks again. Just make them see a vampire or a lich. That always gets the low lvl parties to turn tail. Making them face something that they can't identify can lead them into believeing that they can beat the thing. On the other hand, there used to be DMs who simply gave their monsters enough hp to survive until a character might die; then the monster died in the next hit. That worked better in 2nd Ed. though.