Advanced Magic Elves? Need Suggestions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advanced Magic Elves? Need Suggestions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arthur_Pendragon
09-02-03, 03:56 AM I've been working on a new setting, but have reached a bit of a snag.

In my setting I'm imagining having the human race having had it's ups and downs (it's enlightenments, and dark ages) over many centuries. And that by contrast Elven society has remained more stable over a longer time, never having fallen into any dark ages (but remaining relatively isolated from humanity).

Now in this setting I'm also imagining elves learning just as quickly as humans do (well almost, I mean, their lore and knowledge constant expands, but at a slower pace than men, but it doesn't stagnate and remain forever the same.)

Let me explain it this way, I'm seeing elves in this setting (which I intend to allow as a player race, in fact everyone in the group is playing one, which is going as planned), as being "ageless" (as in reaching biological adulthood and then the aging process stops, they can die (say from violence) but most live on and on.

Now this makes them a bit more like the fairy races of old celtic legend, and as a result they seek to pass eternity by doing everything from entertianment (like the fairy races of celtic lore) to learning and knowledge (unlike the fairy races of celtic lore). As a result they are still magical innovators, albeit more slowly, but also more thourghly than mankind.

SO, the point I've been getting at is, I need suggestions on how to setup Elven Magic to function more "magically advanced" than humanity.

I don't want it to be someting as simply as, there are more high level elven mages then high level human mages. I mean elven magic being more thourough. I doesn't matter if that makes elven magic somewhat more powerful than human magic, but I don't want it to an extreme either (like delayed blast fireball as a third level spell). It's not so much I want elven magic to be more destructively powerful (with something like fireball at first level). But more complex and more dynamic and vivid.

I keep thinking of something like, a human apprentice learns the cantrip Ray of Frost and moves on to the next spell. While the young elf apprentice learns Ray of Frost and cherishes it. It is like a new toy, a beautful work of art to admire, and a new puzzle to explore. He plays with the subtle tapesty of magic that makes the spell, changes the color of the ray, makes it look like an arch of blue white fire, makes the ray a burst of colorful light that streaks to it's target, maybe make is burn instead of freeze, or change slightly along the same thematics (like instead of literally causing cold damage, it gives that cold tingling feeling you get when your arm falls asleep). If he treated it as some science of a series of correct gestures and phrases he would become terribly bored by the first week! And after the elf apprenctice has spent perhaps 3 or 4 months of having his fun with it, he might move on to daze or flare, no rush to learn nor pressure to excel, merely....all the time in the world to enjoy it.

Trick is how do I translate that feel into solid game mechanics???? If that feel translates into a type of magic "more uber" than the human one in game that's fine, if it comes out "balanced" in game terms that's fine too, I'll adjust the game encounters accordingly (and possibly level advancement rate for elven wizards accordingly (like make it take longer for them to advance)).

So any suggestions???? All help is welcome :)
canamrock
09-02-03, 04:06 AM Might I suggest modifying the wizard class for the elves so that it is more like an incantatrix, in that the usefulness of metamagic goes up. That would cover your idea of a spell being modified more by the elves.

Conversely, you could make it so that the human wizards have some other ability to make them stand out as well. To compensate for both of these, you could cut back on their spellcasting, giving them cantrips only at the first level (like the bard), and then normal progression afterwards.
shadowelf
09-02-03, 05:17 PM I'm not quite sure if this is what you want, but how about :-

Since elves' study of magic is "deeper" than humans:

Elves get +5 on Spellcraft rolls to identify human-cast spells and humans get -5 to recognise elvish spells.

Perhaps also some bonuses/penalties similarly, though not quite as steep, on Dispel Magic, and maybe even some failure chance for humans counterspelling elvish casting.
bitnine
09-02-03, 05:34 PM My suggestion would be an arcane elven PrC, if you wouldn't mind representing things that way. Say, something that trades off a wizard's bonus metamagic feats for the ability to select and improve certain spells. Something like every level that they gain they can further their understanding of a spell, say, increasing their effective caster level with said spell, and/or gaining spell mastery for free, or eventually having improved metamagic with a single spell. You could probably give some good bonuses, as it would require them to focus on and only apply to a small number of selected spells. Perhaps a slight drawback as well, like only gaining one spell known every level automatically instead of two, symbolizing the great time and care they take.
Luminous Crayon
09-02-03, 06:27 PM Shadowelf has an interesting idea. Although, if I were implementing, I'd probably just give the Elves a +2 bonus to Spellcraft in general, the way they get bonuses to Listen and Spot.
Arthur_Pendragon
09-04-03, 02:17 AM I should explain one additional peice of info, over time my group and I have come to play around with a variant way of handling classes. To allow more freedom and customizeablity, we allowed alot more feats (many at first level) but instead of getting class abilities, you buy them as feats (and like feats they have level pre-requisites and some of those "feats" cost several "feat slots" (so to be a wizard you actually have to spend nearly the entirety of your starting feats to do so.) and we don't really powergame so it works well for us). (So if you want to play a wizard with more hit dice, you give up something else in it's slot, etc.) Any way, Prestige Classes don't really change though (they still offer abilities you couldn't get otherwise, but many times your giving up a number of other feats as a result). So in essence the base classes are now a single "Class" that players build as they like with DM approval (ussually always with Roleplay in mind). To clairfiy I'm both DM and a player...as my group consits of myself and my wife (and my wife hates solo games).

---------------------------------------------------

canamrock: Sounds like a good idea, but could you expand on what you mean, give some examples?

Shadowelf and Luminous Crown: I like the idea, but for me it doesn't seem extensive enough for what I was seeking, but it certianly fits the feel and I would probably use it in conjunction with other abilities.

Bitnine: I guess Prestige Class could work, but I perfer to have this be something elven wizard have/do from the very begining.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Looking over my own attempt at describing what I'm imagining a couple of things stand out from my description.

The time and energy spent learning the through in's and outs of a spell's matrix sounds alot like the feat "spell mastery" so it would seem to make sense that all their spell function as though using "spell mastery". Besides I never took much advantage of the whole "hurt the spell casters by stealing their spell book" thing. So for me it isn't really a big deal, they still have to memorize their stuff at the day's start.

Second I'm imagining them doing things with magic that make many human mages eyes just bug out :bigeyes: like cast fireball at their feet and he and his allies walk out of it unharmed (like the Archmage's spell shaping ability), do effects like Spell Thematics (just the altered looks only, not actually the favored spells part) but change them about at will, and something like the metamagic feats that change a spells elements (like making a lightning bolt a fire bolt).

But now, on the negative side, such slow study suggests a number downsides, the first and most major one, treating the "class" as essentially carrying it's own Effective Character Level (ECL) penalty be it an ECL +1, ECL + 2, or ECL +3 or more (this way I don't have tinker with the number of spells per day they get, just slow down that rate alot).

[B]Trick is exactly what do I give and what type of ECL do I give???

Another thing that comes to mind is that they probably won't be able to apply their special abilities the day they first learn their spell, there would need to be long amounts of time spent tinkering with a spells matrix (each spell as you go along). So for example, if the wizard just found a scroll of burning hands, great, he learns it in it's basic form. It would take weeks or months of "play" with it before he could spontaneously "edit" the casting to create varied visual effects, then later avoid hitting people in area effects, and still later before he could edit it's elements...meaning it's no so much a function of a feat, but long time spent tinkerning with it (without regard to level really.)

So additionally how should I handle when to apply what abiltiies?
Hazzurath
09-04-03, 03:13 AM Use Urban Arcana's Incantation's Rules - all elves can do Incantations.
Arthur_Pendragon
09-04-03, 01:33 PM Sorry I don't have that book, what are the rules for Incantations??? Are they in a d20 Open Source document some where???
Arthur_Pendragon
09-06-03, 03:39 PM Any other suggestions anybody else has?
shadowelf
09-07-03, 10:21 AM Originally posted by Arthur_Pendragon

So additionally how should I handle when to apply what abiltiies? [/B]

I suppose the logical thing is to say elves can't metamagic a particular spell until they have gained another level after learning it.

This idea could be extended: say an elf finds a scroll of Burning Hands, to take your example, when they are 3rd level. At that time they can copy it to a spellbook, but can only cast it in "standard" form. At 4th level, they could pick one Feat that could be applied to it - at each level thereafter, another can be chosen. You could even specify which order the metamagics can be chosen.

This slows them down a bit - does it give you the flavour you want?
Arthur_Pendragon
09-07-03, 02:53 PM I could do that...but then I'm not sure I'd really want to add an ECL + 1 or 2 to the class...if I did it that way I mean.
bitnine
09-07-03, 03:00 PM I know you aren't hot on the PrC idea, but there is a thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68723) where a DM wanted to create a PrC to represent the grey elf's (in his campaign) superior grasp of magic. Perhaps you can make use of some of the ideas or mechanics therein, even if you don't want to use a PrC.
Hazzurath
09-07-03, 07:05 PM Originally posted by Arthur_Pendragon
Sorry I don't have that book, what are the rules for Incantations??? Are they in a d20 Open Source document some where???

Unfortunately not (although D20 Modern is available as a SRD download, Incantations and rules for creating them are only found in ithe Urban Arcana campaign setting book).

Incantations in Urban Arcana are spells that everyone can do (with use of a Knowledge: Arcane roll with high DC depending on what they want done). They are more like rituals in that they can take a long time to perform (so not good for combat) and require multiple DC rolls to be successful.

In UA, they take the place of spells such as Polymorph Other (high level spells which Wizards do not get access to in the UA Setting / D20 Modern system).

I would suggest that your Magic Elves have the knowledge and ability to perform Incantations without being a spellcasting class (although not all individuals of the race have mastered this ability, most can perform the least of Incantations).

Examples of Incantations that you can make:

Detect Magic: Knowledge: Arcane DC 20.
Duration: 10 rounds (or 1 minute) per Knowledge: Arcane roll.
Requires 3 successful rolls.
Effect: same as Detect Magic Spell.

With the time an Incantation can take to perform, your race of Magical Elves can be powerful in magic but such power is not very effective in combat. The elves can set up very good (magical) defenses for their lands but such power would suck if attacking a neighbouring land.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arthur_Pendragon 09-02-03, 03:56 AM	I've been working on a new setting, but have reached a bit of a snag. In my setting I'm imagining having the human race having had it's ups and downs (it's enlightenments, and dark ages) over many centuries. And that by contrast Elven society has remained more stable over a longer time, never having fallen into any dark ages (but remaining relatively isolated from humanity). Now in this setting I'm also imagining elves learning just as quickly as humans do (well almost, I mean, their lore and knowledge constant expands, but at a slower pace than men, but it doesn't stagnate and remain forever the same.) Let me explain it this way, I'm seeing elves in this setting (which I intend to allow as a player race, in fact everyone in the group is playing one, which is going as planned), as being "ageless" (as in reaching biological adulthood and then the aging process stops, they can die (say from violence) but most live on and on. Now this makes them a bit more like the fairy races of old celtic legend, and as a result they seek to pass eternity by doing everything from entertianment (like the fairy races of celtic lore) to learning and knowledge (unlike the fairy races of celtic lore). As a result they are still magical innovators, albeit more slowly, but also more thourghly than mankind. SO, the point I've been getting at is, I need suggestions on how to setup Elven Magic to function more "magically advanced" than humanity. I don't want it to be someting as simply as, there are more high level elven mages then high level human mages. I mean elven magic being more thourough. I doesn't matter if that makes elven magic somewhat more powerful than human magic, but I don't want it to an extreme either (like delayed blast fireball as a third level spell). It's not so much I want elven magic to be more destructively powerful (with something like fireball at first level). But more complex and more dynamic and vivid. I keep thinking of something like, a human apprentice learns the cantrip Ray of Frost and moves on to the next spell. While the young elf apprentice learns Ray of Frost and cherishes it. It is like a new toy, a beautful work of art to admire, and a new puzzle to explore. He plays with the subtle tapesty of magic that makes the spell, changes the color of the ray, makes it look like an arch of blue white fire, makes the ray a burst of colorful light that streaks to it's target, maybe make is burn instead of freeze, or change slightly along the same thematics (like instead of literally causing cold damage, it gives that cold tingling feeling you get when your arm falls asleep). If he treated it as some science of a series of correct gestures and phrases he would become terribly bored by the first week! And after the elf apprenctice has spent perhaps 3 or 4 months of having his fun with it, he might move on to daze or flare, no rush to learn nor pressure to excel, merely....all the time in the world to enjoy it. Trick is how do I translate that feel into solid game mechanics???? If that feel translates into a type of magic "more uber" than the human one in game that's fine, if it comes out "balanced" in game terms that's fine too, I'll adjust the game encounters accordingly (and possibly level advancement rate for elven wizards accordingly (like make it take longer for them to advance)). So any suggestions???? All help is welcome :)
canamrock 09-02-03, 04:06 AM	Might I suggest modifying the wizard class for the elves so that it is more like an incantatrix, in that the usefulness of metamagic goes up. That would cover your idea of a spell being modified more by the elves. Conversely, you could make it so that the human wizards have some other ability to make them stand out as well. To compensate for both of these, you could cut back on their spellcasting, giving them cantrips only at the first level (like the bard), and then normal progression afterwards.
shadowelf 09-02-03, 05:17 PM	I'm not quite sure if this is what you want, but how about :- Since elves' study of magic is "deeper" than humans: Elves get +5 on Spellcraft rolls to identify human-cast spells and humans get -5 to recognise elvish spells. Perhaps also some bonuses/penalties similarly, though not quite as steep, on Dispel Magic, and maybe even some failure chance for humans counterspelling elvish casting.
bitnine 09-02-03, 05:34 PM	My suggestion would be an arcane elven PrC, if you wouldn't mind representing things that way. Say, something that trades off a wizard's bonus metamagic feats for the ability to select and improve certain spells. Something like every level that they gain they can further their understanding of a spell, say, increasing their effective caster level with said spell, and/or gaining spell mastery for free, or eventually having improved metamagic with a single spell. You could probably give some good bonuses, as it would require them to focus on and only apply to a small number of selected spells. Perhaps a slight drawback as well, like only gaining one spell known every level automatically instead of two, symbolizing the great time and care they take.
Luminous Crayon 09-02-03, 06:27 PM	Shadowelf has an interesting idea. Although, if I were implementing, I'd probably just give the Elves a +2 bonus to Spellcraft in general, the way they get bonuses to Listen and Spot.
Arthur_Pendragon 09-04-03, 02:17 AM	I should explain one additional peice of info, over time my group and I have come to play around with a variant way of handling classes. To allow more freedom and customizeablity, we allowed alot more feats (many at first level) but instead of getting class abilities, you buy them as feats (and like feats they have level pre-requisites and some of those "feats" cost several "feat slots" (so to be a wizard you actually have to spend nearly the entirety of your starting feats to do so.) and we don't really powergame so it works well for us). (So if you want to play a wizard with more hit dice, you give up something else in it's slot, etc.) Any way, Prestige Classes don't really change though (they still offer abilities you couldn't get otherwise, but many times your giving up a number of other feats as a result). So in essence the base classes are now a single "Class" that players build as they like with DM approval (ussually always with Roleplay in mind). To clairfiy I'm both DM and a player...as my group consits of myself and my wife (and my wife hates solo games). --------------------------------------------------- canamrock: Sounds like a good idea, but could you expand on what you mean, give some examples? Shadowelf and Luminous Crown: I like the idea, but for me it doesn't seem extensive enough for what I was seeking, but it certianly fits the feel and I would probably use it in conjunction with other abilities. Bitnine: I guess Prestige Class could work, but I perfer to have this be something elven wizard have/do from the very begining. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Looking over my own attempt at describing what I'm imagining a couple of things stand out from my description. The time and energy spent learning the through in's and outs of a spell's matrix sounds alot like the feat "spell mastery" so it would seem to make sense that all their spell function as though using "spell mastery". Besides I never took much advantage of the whole "hurt the spell casters by stealing their spell book" thing. So for me it isn't really a big deal, they still have to memorize their stuff at the day's start. Second I'm imagining them doing things with magic that make many human mages eyes just bug out :bigeyes: like cast fireball at their feet and he and his allies walk out of it unharmed (like the Archmage's spell shaping ability), do effects like Spell Thematics (just the altered looks only, not actually the favored spells part) but change them about at will, and something like the metamagic feats that change a spells elements (like making a lightning bolt a fire bolt). But now, on the negative side, such slow study suggests a number downsides, the first and most major one, treating the "class" as essentially carrying it's own Effective Character Level (ECL) penalty be it an ECL +1, ECL + 2, or ECL +3 or more (this way I don't have tinker with the number of spells per day they get, just slow down that rate alot). [B]Trick is exactly what do I give and what type of ECL do I give??? Another thing that comes to mind is that they probably won't be able to apply their special abilities the day they first learn their spell, there would need to be long amounts of time spent tinkering with a spells matrix (each spell as you go along). So for example, if the wizard just found a scroll of burning hands, great, he learns it in it's basic form. It would take weeks or months of "play" with it before he could spontaneously "edit" the casting to create varied visual effects, then later avoid hitting people in area effects, and still later before he could edit it's elements...meaning it's no so much a function of a feat, but long time spent tinkerning with it (without regard to level really.) So additionally how should I handle when to apply what abiltiies?
Hazzurath 09-04-03, 03:13 AM	Use Urban Arcana's Incantation's Rules - all elves can do Incantations.
Arthur_Pendragon 09-04-03, 01:33 PM	Sorry I don't have that book, what are the rules for Incantations??? Are they in a d20 Open Source document some where???
Arthur_Pendragon 09-06-03, 03:39 PM	Any other suggestions anybody else has?
shadowelf 09-07-03, 10:21 AM	Originally posted by Arthur_Pendragon So additionally how should I handle when to apply what abiltiies? [/B] I suppose the logical thing is to say elves can't metamagic a particular spell until they have gained another level after learning it. This idea could be extended: say an elf finds a scroll of Burning Hands, to take your example, when they are 3rd level. At that time they can copy it to a spellbook, but can only cast it in "standard" form. At 4th level, they could pick one Feat that could be applied to it - at each level thereafter, another can be chosen. You could even specify which order the metamagics can be chosen. This slows them down a bit - does it give you the flavour you want?
Arthur_Pendragon 09-07-03, 02:53 PM	I could do that...but then I'm not sure I'd really want to add an ECL + 1 or 2 to the class...if I did it that way I mean.
bitnine 09-07-03, 03:00 PM	I know you aren't hot on the PrC idea, but there is a thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68723) where a DM wanted to create a PrC to represent the grey elf's (in his campaign) superior grasp of magic. Perhaps you can make use of some of the ideas or mechanics therein, even if you don't want to use a PrC.
Hazzurath 09-07-03, 07:05 PM	Originally posted by Arthur_Pendragon Sorry I don't have that book, what are the rules for Incantations??? Are they in a d20 Open Source document some where??? Unfortunately not (although D20 Modern is available as a SRD download, Incantations and rules for creating them are only found in ithe Urban Arcana campaign setting book). Incantations in Urban Arcana are spells that everyone can do (with use of a Knowledge: Arcane roll with high DC depending on what they want done). They are more like rituals in that they can take a long time to perform (so not good for combat) and require multiple DC rolls to be successful. In UA, they take the place of spells such as Polymorph Other (high level spells which Wizards do not get access to in the UA Setting / D20 Modern system). I would suggest that your Magic Elves have the knowledge and ability to perform Incantations without being a spellcasting class (although not all individuals of the race have mastered this ability, most can perform the least of Incantations). Examples of Incantations that you can make: Detect Magic: Knowledge: Arcane DC 20. Duration: 10 rounds (or 1 minute) per Knowledge: Arcane roll. Requires 3 successful rolls. Effect: same as Detect Magic Spell. With the time an Incantation can take to perform, your race of Magical Elves can be powerful in magic but such power is not very effective in combat. The elves can set up very good (magical) defenses for their lands but such power would suck if attacking a neighbouring land.