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WizO_Shadow 10-29-06, 04:17 PM

Today I held the Advanced Riddling Workshop that focused on implementing in game and brainstorming for ideas. Here's the transcript! Now talking in The_Tower WizO_Shadow> Welcome to the Advanced Riddling Workshop! It’s great to see return faces as well as some new ones. Today’s workshop is going to be differently paced than the Introductory Riddle Seminar because it’s less of a “guideline” and more of a “workshop”. The Introductory Riddling Seminar can be found at: ¬http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729441 ¬ . WizO_Shadow> I would like to throw out a disclaimer. This workshop is for /Advanced/ riddling. Don’t be surprised if your girlfriend Sarah can’t handle it. This is for /Advanced/ players. In all seriousness anyone can throw advanced riddles into their game. It all depends on how you apply it and how much your group is used to puzzles to solve. Today I’m going to have a brief overview of riddles, placement of riddles which is dramatically different than the Introductory seminar and types of rewards to give with them. Before we begin, does anyone have any questions? WizO_Shadow> Yesterday we defined a riddle with Webster’s definition of: a mystifying, misleading, or puzzling question posed as a problem to be solved or guessed : CONUNDRUM, ENIGMA; 2 : something or someone difficult to understand; to find the solution of. WizO_Shadow> The room defined it as: As a problem the we can solve, something to an answer we might be looking for, and in a way to teach someone a lesson. As a physical puzzle, verbal riddle, or anything to stump the players making them think IC for just a moment to solve it. WizO_Shadow> Is there anything we would like to add to this definition? abustleinyourhedgerow> that just about covers it WizO_Shadow> Today we're going to jump around a bit and have a completely different layout than yesterday. I'm going to start with rewards for advanced riddles. <WizO_Shadow> If you^`2019re going to make the campaign stoppers and dramatic events hinge on solving the puzzle or riddle, then the rewards need to be great as well. +1 permanent to a stat; a hefty magical item that is needed to defeat the BBEG/BUG; their character^`2019s quest item. Get a list from the characters at the beginning of game of items they would like to have by 10th level (That’s high level for me ;) ). Then throughout the campaign, as they solve the puzzles/riddles, have them “find” them inside the chest or wake up with them after a particularly hard dream. WizO_Shadow> Those are just some that I thought of. What other kinds of rewards could there be? abustleinyourhedgerow> an increase in a stat WizO_Shadow> You could also give a reroll chip allowing them to make one reroll in that game. Fullmetal_Alchemist> Hrmm...well, a person could get some type of abaility that is permanet, like he can deal double damage to objects WizO_Shadow> Oh that's a nice one! AndrewW> Well, defeating the BBEG shouldn't be tied to getting that magical item by answering a riddle. abustleinyourhedgerow> or a more advanced spell for their level WizO_Shadow> abustle>permanently available to them or in a scroll AndrewW> Second chance chip. abustleinyourhedgerow> yeah, that's what i meant WizO_Shadow> Andrew>starting off with riddles or after your group is used to solving them and they need bigger riddle challenges? AndrewW> Scrolls can be transcribed into your spell book, or a Sorcerer could learn it and thus have it available. Fullmetal_Alchemist> Well, I have been working on a character history, and he said an answer to a riddle within an old temple a copule of miles away from town, and when he said it. He woke up with scales all over his body [he was a half-dragon sorcerer. Go figure AndrewW> You could also have some riddles that give you clues that you'll need for later riddles. WizO_Shadow> That's a good one AndrewW! WizO_Shadow> Answers to future riddles, scrolls of spells that are higher level than they can cast, stat boosts Fullmetal_Alchemist> Well, could a riddle help a person remember his past? I had a character that forgot all about his human past. Could riddles help recover his lost memories? DungeonScout> I always like the reward for the riddle in the solo adventure form the first ed. basic game. It doubled the amount of coins you were carrying. WizO_Shadow> FA, Character development is a great idea! That doesn't give unbalancing powers and enhances the game WizO_Shadow> Maybe they remember something from their past that would help them solve the current dilemma abustleinyourhedgerow> good point WizO_Shadow> Like in the DnD movie recently. Ridley remembered something that his father said when looking at maps and he was able to get past the magical barrier to enter the map to continue the quest abustleinyourhedgerow> a movie? gstommylee> D & D 2 abustleinyourhedgerow> right WizO_Shadow> In my opinion, that's a great example of an advanced riddle. THey *had* to solve it to get to the next point AndrewW> Basicially that Ridley did would be a Use Magic Device check, but the way they did it gave more reason behind the knowledge WizO_Shadow> Right. I find it much better to game with bringing it out and having reasons behind the knowledge than rolling a die for every check. abustleinyourhedgerow> same DungeonScout> everything is better with a little background. Be it knowledge, language, or anything else. AndrewW> Agreed abustleinyourhedgerow> true WizO_Shadow> How do you all feel about the player waking up from a nightmare with the item. Like the party cleric (I'm picking on them a lot today). Say he falls asleep and has this nightmare that a demon is trying to possess him because he can't solve the puzzle on the floor before him. You pull the player into the other room and show him a handout cut into pieces. If he solves the puzzle (a picture of his god's holy symbol printed out and cut into random pieces), he wakes up wihta holy item that would injure the BBEG DungeonScout> You guys may have discussed this already, but there's always the tried and true standby reward for a solved riddle. If they can figure it out they find out the weakness of the big baddy. abustleinyourhedgerow> sounds all right to me DungeonScout> Yeah, I like. gstommylee> how about having to having to answer a # of difficult riddles just to get accepting to be taught by a certain person abustleinyourhedgerow> classics WizO_Shadow> gstom, that's a brilliant idea! Especially if you use the mentor optional rule for level advancement gstommylee> yes abustleinyourhedgerow> sounds like a wuxia movie ^_^ WizO_Shadow> Dungeon, we touched on that yesterday but that's still an awesome reward to get gstommylee> bustle there were a few movies out there had used such of an example gstommylee> that i mention abustleinyourhedgerow> yeah, like wuxia movies DungeonScout> Like I said, old standby. Figured someone else would have mentioned it. WizO_Shadow> Now, what do you do when your players don't solve the riddle or answer it wrong? gstommylee> speaking of riddles lord of the rings fellowship of the ring had a riddle to open the door abustleinyourhedgerow> punish them increases the challenge gstommylee> yes WizO_Shadow> bustle, hehe, true. DungeonScout> I like it having a trap set off that they then have save themselve from. WizO_Shadow> Ok, so the players think that they solved the riddle of the “What am I?” question. They are so sure of themselves and hootin’ and hollarin’ and having a great time. You are sitting in your chair going, “Dragon nuggets, they got it wrong!” What do you do? Hand them the wrong clue or map. Smile with your perfect, “you stumped the DM!” smile and hand them a false map. Players don’t always get good things to happen to them! WizO_Shadow> For example: In a dungeon the players find a magic mouth chest trapped with a “What am I?” question. They do a detect magic and find that the chest glows an aura of Abjuration and Illusion. Instead of trying to solve it they decide to either bash it or use a disable device check. Well, they succeed, set off the minor fire trap and open the chest to find a charred map. Well, it’s the wrong map. It has the corridors laid out properly but where it says all the triggers are for the foot traps, snares, pits, etc…. are off by 10’. If they would’ve solved the “What am I?” riddle the top of the chest would’ve detached and revealed the fact it’s a map. There was an illusion placed on the top making it look like the top of a chest. They picked up illusion school because magic mouth is in it as well. T he right map shows the proper layout of secret doors, halls, and traps. Oops, the players got it wrong! abustleinyourhedgerow> or, for a really advanced riddle, if they can't figure it out boot them way back to the start gstommylee> lol bust abustleinyourhedgerow> ok that's a little cruel DungeonScout> I like it. abustleinyourhedgerow tsks at dungeonscout WizO_Shadow> abustle>If they are used to riddles and are getting proficient at answreing them then yes, boot their bottoms right back to the beginning of the dungeon! abustleinyourhedgerow> i think i'll take down your idea shadow abustleinyourhedgerow> well, i've learned a good bit about riddles and riddling WizO_Shadow> What other bad things could you do to players that aren't bad enough to where they would want to melt your dice but is enough to challenge them to do better? Fullmetal_Alchemist> Well, could a riddle be answered, and a gang of undead kobolds could come? WizO_Negathael> Killl zem, Kill zem all...? gstommylee> shadow how about each time you get it wrong one of the players disappears WizO_Shadow> Teleporting them back to the beginning is a great idea. Doesn't physically harm them permanently and they at least can get back to where they were without having to defeat all the creatures/traps again WizO_Shadow> FA, yes! gstommylee> and reappears in some room WizO_Shadow> Summoning creatures abustleinyourhedgerow> decrease a stat abustleinyourhedgerow> i'm being cruel again... WizO_Shadow> teleporting them into the room with mirrors and they have to face duplicates of themselves (I hate this trap as a player) gstommylee> or have some annoying ugly dude appear abustleinyourhedgerow> ugh WizO_Shadow> abustle>if it's temporary, not it's not really cruel, is it? abustleinyourhedgerow> permanenet abustleinyourhedgerow> is what i meant gstommylee> na WizO_Shadow> heh, yeah, that is cruel. You don't want your players to hurt you ;) WizO_Shadow> or more importantly, your dice. abustleinyourhedgerow> lol abustleinyourhedgerow> heh abustleinyourhedgerow> or get high blood pressure DungeonScout> Keep your priorities in order, protect your dice first. abustleinyourhedgerow> lol WizO_Shadow> Misinformation, summoning creatures, teleportation to random spots, stat drains, abustleinyourhedgerow puts dice in steel safe gstommylee> how about annoying people gstommylee> that doesn't nothing but annoy you WizO_Shadow> you could do a dispel magic on their magic items making them defunct for a couple hours and then the creatures are summoned abustleinyourhedgerow> makes sense WizO_Shadow> like... the cleric's holy symbol and then have a vampire or two come in DungeonScout> I like the random teleportation. Reminds of some of the traps on Rogue. Dispel magic is good too. DungeonScout remembers playing Rogue for hours on his old DOS PC. abustleinyourhedgerow> ah, dos WizO_Shadow> Especially if the cleric used a channeling of positive energy (turn ability) to get a divine insight. T hat would be the item to go defunct. gstommylee> how about a monster is summoned that is either immuned to pyshical attcaks or magic attacks WizO_Shadow> hehe abustleinyourhedgerow> how about if you disable the spellcasters and then have the others fight the monster immune to physical attacks WizO_Shadow> I, as a player, hate those creatures. THat's a good one though. Hit the party with their weaknesses abustleinyourhedgerow> ^_^ AndrewW> Or you could use the partial. Solve the riddle in time to stop the map from falling into the flames, if it falls they can still retive it before it's completely burned up but the important part that explains something is burned off. Leaving the map itself intact but no the critical clue to reading the map. gstommylee> shadow yea WizO_Shadow> Andrew, yes! abustleinyourhedgerow> and they'll have to solve a riddle to get the burned-off clue, andrew? WizO_Shadow> That brings me to the next part: The middle ground. WizO_Shadow> What do you do when the player’s should’ve solved it, you’ve given hint after hint, and they think they got it right? I thought of some questions to ask yourself guaging on how to proceed. WizO_Shadow> 1. Are there any consequences to the plot line if I allow them to pass? WizO_Shadow> 2. Are there any consequences to the plot line if I allow them to fail? WizO_Shadow> 3. Is the item that they are getting going to make their character much more powerful than the other players? WizO_Shadow> 4. Is the item going to bring balance to the group? WizO_Shadow> 5. Is the item needed to kill the BBEG but I can bring it to the group in another way? WizO_Shadow> What are some other ones? abustleinyourhedgerow> is the retribution for getting the riddle wrong a serious cripple to the party? AndrewW> Only the prophecy of the one can bring balance... Fullmetal_Alchemist> 6. Is there anything to do with a character's background? WizO_Shadow> Andrew, pity that the Jedi were the dominant force and didn't realize it eh? abustleinyourhedgerow> will I need a bulletproof vest if the players can't figure it out? WizO_Shadow> oh good one FA! WizO_Shadow> If you bring a riddle in and it's keyed into the character's background, you sort of have to make it easy for them to solve. AndrewW> Hello Entymal, welcome to Advanced riddling with WizO_Shadow Entymal> hi everyone abustleinyourhedgerow> have the character's player get sick just as he has to figure it out abustleinyourhedgerow> meaning he'll be absent from the session WizO_Shadow> Entymal, welcome to the Advanced Riddling seminar! Right now we're going over the middle ground on questions to ask yourself if they players don't get it right and you don't know whether to punish them or let them have it. WizO_Shadow> bustle, that's a good one! I've been knocked out of game before with the plauge. Diseases are NOT fun abustleinyourhedgerow> heh AndrewW> Hello joseph_stoneking welcom to Advanced Riddling with WizO_Shadow abustleinyourhedgerow> you misinterpret me shadow abustleinyourhedgerow> i meant in real life, the player gets sick abustleinyourhedgerow> oh, you... abustleinyourhedgerow> sorry bustleinyourhedgerow needs more sleep WizO_Shadow> hehe :) joseph_stoneking> (which is why I took Steal Sleep as a spell. :P abustleinyourhedgerow> ...caffeine....need caffeine.... joseph_stoneking> ((Too much blood in your caffeine? abustleinyourhedgerow> +2 magic coffee mug! Fullmetal_Alchemist Comes back with his green tea WizO_Shadow> Fatguing is anotehr good way to punish the players for getting the riddle wrong (backtracking I know :) ) abustleinyourhedgerow> fullmetal lightweight joseph_stoneking> If the players get the riddle wrong but have a good explaination of why they think the answer is the way it is... I think it'd be fair to let them have it. abustleinyourhedgerow> caffeine is the honorable path joseph_stoneking> I mean, if I can see the logic in it. :) abustleinyourhedgerow> that's fair Entymal> that could tie in with last night's chat about different answers yielding different results Entymal> forked puzzles as it were joseph_stoneking> Sometimes they can come up with better, more appropriate answers than I could. DungeonScout> An answer with good reasoning behind it that is wrong just makes it easier for them to believe that they got it right and your "trick map" or whatever will all that much more effective. AndrewW> Can also have different answers lead to different paths. Entymal> true, and it's often best in that case to make a note and pretend it's what you had in mind the whole time abustleinyourhedgerow> i'm too lazy for that :) WizO_Shadow> Dungeon, true! WizO_Shadow> Like a door A, B, or C riddle. You give them a question like, "I am Ishtanya the great wizardess. Go to door A if my real name is Gathazarr D'orthiel. Door B if my real name is Adrianna Silverflame. Door C if my real name is Gabriella Wintereye." AndrewW> How they solve it leads them to the path best suited for that. By brute force that opens up the way to do that (like: opens a door going through all the monsters), if they solve it using intellect then a different door opens that leads them down a path better suited to that type of answer. DungeonScout> Oooh, that's good. abustleinyourhedgerow> quite WizO_Shadow> Andrew, I've been in one of those! Those are fun. WizO_Shadow> I completley forgot about them. Entymal> have to map out 3 different dungeons, but you can reuse the others in future games. DungeonScout> Or have each part be the same with different encounters, etc. WizO_Shadow> Entymal, yup! And finding dungeon maps is so insanely easy. You really don't even have to make 3 dungeon maps. Just *act* like you did and shift through some papers and qucily label it "door A/B/C" and start using it. Entymal> encounters make the adventure DungeonScout> Like I said, same map, different encounters. DungeonScout> They won't know. WizO_Shadow> yup! Entymal> ever base a map off your own house, or a common area? that could make for a puzzle if the players catch on and anticipate the layout Entymal> the map becomes the puzzle WizO_Shadow> The last (and biggest section) of this workshop is Placement of Riddles in the game/campaign. I have a few suggestions on campaign long riddles but I would like to create one as well. Entymal> heh heh, secret door into a hidden bathroom DungeonScout> I did it for a game of Star Wars. The players never noticed tough. gstommylee> lol WizO_Shadow> Enytmal, Heh, I bought a better homes and garden magazine that had 300 mansion home floor plans. Just dog-ear a few pages and blamo! Insta fortress Entymal> ooh, nice abustleinyourhedgerow> lol shadow gstommylee> shadow your bad WizO_Shadow> gstom, awww.. you say that like it's a bad thing ;) WizO_Shadow> Yesterday I went over placing riddles in light, general, non-game stopping moments. Today, I’m going to state to do almost the opposite. Once the players are ready, you can put plot stopping, game hindering challenges in there for them to solve. WizO_Shadow> In a long term campaign: One way I’ve heard of to put riddles throughout the campaign through a common source is to use a ghost, a troubled spirit. It’s the spirit of the king of the country that was taken over by demons. gstommylee> shadow only kidding WizO_Shadow> The last moments of consciousness he heard some words in a different language (abyssal). This king just so happened to worship the same god as the cleric of the group (or closest religious character) and through prayer one day was sent to them to give them the quest to avenge his kingdom and remove the threat from their world. Now, this is where you as the GM get to have fun. You can make the PC’s have nightmares reliving the King’s last moments and over the course of the adventure they remember one abyssal word at a time upon wakening. When those words are combined they would form the sentence of the demon^`2019s real master or whatever final plot solving item you want to put in there. You could also have these words written out on paper in a different language as there are tons of language translators online. Real gamers can read/write Elvish & Thorass anyhow! Entymal> I used to gstommylee> shadow heres one how aout a series of riddles to find out what item a person wants so you can get pass the person and theres like good number of them you have to go through to get to the area you a required to be AndrewW> That could also lead to a side adventure where the PC's have to find someone that can translate that language. WizO_Shadow> collecting quest items to place them in the magically warded areas like keys to get through the dungeon. WizO_Shadow> and they ahve to quest for each one DungeonScout> Many players will just kill the guy rather than figure out a riddle so that they can pass. WizO_Shadow> :nods: Entymal> what if the language is a dead language by the time the PCs get the message, then they'd have to track down ancient inscriptions and such to translate it DungeonScout> Unless you have a Paladin in the group. WizO_Shadow> Entymal,yes! Entymal> It'd first be a quest for a Rosetta stone WizO_Shadow> Dungeon, or there is an NPC paladin coming with them Entymal> Then a few research, find the sage type adventures DungeonScout> Then the players know something is up tough. AndrewW> Could place a Rossetta Stone somewhere. Entymal> followed by politics and finally a confrontation Entymal> so you got some dungeon delving, skill uses, role play and climactic combat WizO_Shadow> You could also have an NPC leprechaun following them around that if they solve the riddle they know what creature is hunting them down. For instance: The leprechaun appears floating beside the mage and whispers, “I am green and flying. I am looking for you without tiring. You took my hoard and now I am mad. But I am sure about to be glad! Hold your breath at my mighty roar or it’ll be your death!” If the characters figure out green dragon flying behind them, allow them to act on the surprise round. If not, that’s their loss DungeonScout> Yes, make them go through some political role playing in order to get the inforamtion AndrewW> But of course the Rosseta Stone itself would be hard to locate then it's in some long abandoned fortress/tomb/ect and an adventure all in itself. Entymal> and to use what they've already discovered. Like in hamlet, getting the new king to incriminate himself WizO_Shadow> You can easily make a campaign out of solving one little puzzle/riddle WizO_Shadow> I love the idea of NPCs tagging along guiding the group Entymal> I find bards are the best for that sort of thing WizO_Shadow> Handouts are a wonderful addition to game and help it tremendously. DungeonScout> Having an NPC tag along is good for the DM who would like to be playing a character. He gets to DM and have a char with more influence on the out come than a normal NPC. Entymal> scraps of ancient parchment which must be pieced together to translate the king's message WizO_Shadow> yes! Entymal> or stone tablets or whatever WizO_Shadow> Handouts remind the player and allow them to think outside of game to try and solve the riddle. The more handouts the better. For example, say the players are trying to find the secret lair of the BBEG however her enemies only have bits of information to go against them. Each one of them will help the party defeat the BBEG/BUG so long as they perform a minor quest. WizO_Shadow> The reward for each quest can look like this. Quest 1 brings up this scrap of painted leather: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mapofweek/sept2006/03_DragonMagic_72_ppi.jpg Print and rip in two. WizO_Shadow> Quest 2 would be to solve whatever magical riddle is preventing her from opening a book to get the second half. Both of which just so conveniently forms a map to her protector’s cave layout. It took me all of 5 minutes to find on www.wizards.com¬ searching for “map a week” and 10 seconds to rip. WizO_Shadow> Handouts don’t have to be time consuming and they add such a dramatic element as does setting the scene. If you need your players to get IC change their environment, put on music, talk to them outside instead of around the gaming table. Do not hesitate to use google, wizards.com, anything at your disposal. Even maps from the back of adventures from past editions. Most people aren’t looking in the old adventures anymore for “new game items” so you can stump your players with something already at your disposal. You can take a picture of it, download to your computer, alter as you see fit and hit print. Want to make it old looking? Take watered down coffee/mud/tea and a paper towel and ‘paint’ it. If it smears, oh well! The players have to fill in the blanks. When you’re trying to only slightly help the players, it doesn’t have to be a perfect print. WizO_Shadow> Do you all do handouts in game? silentkiller> i do Entymal> I do when I can. WizO_Shadow nods Entymal> I bake my coffee stained papers for a crisp, crumbly effect WizO_Shadow> Making handouts can be time consuming. THat's why I'm glad for map a week as it's already created for you. WizO_Shadow> I'm paranoid putting paper into the oven. How do you do it? Entymal> on low heat, maybe 200 or so Entymal> 10 min, just enough to brown it and make it stiff gstommylee> shadow what about an iron Entymal> then carefully burn the edges with a lighter Entymal> that would work ,but then it'd be flat. I tend to do scrolls WizO_Shadow> I usually just stain and burn the edges with a lighter. Entymal> it stiffens however you pose it in the oven DungeonScout> Burning with a lighter is my preffered method as well. miyaa> Sound like you're trying to torchure plain old paper. WizO_Shadow> I've also heard of the DM having a rolled up piece of paper that simply said, "Get your dice, character sheet, and PHB. Meet me in the other room. Act like you're about to die." Entymal> KODT magazine actually had a home made hydrachloric acid that stained it nicely. silentkiller> i also like taking it and crumbling it up then uncrumbling it makes it look like its been around Entymal> lol Entymal> sit on it on the way to the game WizO_Shadow> Then after the first person went through the side mini dream quest he came back into the room, "Is anyone else going to read the paper?" WizO_Shadow> what other kind of handouts have you used? Entymal> When appropriate, I use one of my actual swords or daggers to represent a magic item. I have a nice collection. Entymal> Or interesting branches for staffs DungeonScout> I always have scrolls and maps. Entymal> Nothing like the party wizard actually brandishing an ornate staff WizO_Shadow> Enytmal, that's a good one! WizO_Shadow> get a stick and carve 4 draconic symbols into it for the 'activation' word Entymal> oh, painted poker chips and a small wooden box from the craft aisle at walmart Entymal> with plastic, colorful gems (beads) Zycko> I have heard of a GM that presented the rogue's player with a "chest" (suitcase in reality I believe), and put a thin layer of vaseline on the lock. And when the rogue's player touched it, he got vaseline on his fingers of course, and hence, his character was affected by the poison on the chest. DungeonScout> That's a little too much for my players. DungeonScout> The beads I mean. Entymal> It's also satisfying to toss a few chips on the table when roleplaying, here's a copper, call someone who cares WizO_Shadow laughs WizO_Shadow> Dragon magazine even had language translators for something beyond elvish ;). Here’s the draconic translator I found: http://masamek.twilightrealm.com/translator/draconic.php/¬ . It wouldn’t be that hard to put two pieces of paper down overlapping in the middle and handwrite out the letters to spell “Ishtanya the succubus is a wizard in disguise.” That way you can give out the several handouts and the players have to spend time trying to arrange them to so they can translate it and then solve it. miyaa> I had as a proper a roll of toilet paper with symbols on it, and the trick was two fold. One: Figure out that the cardboard tube on the roll was the right size to wrap the symbols around to make words out of it. Entymal> cash in, say 20 gold at a time, mark off the sheet less often, and get into the role play. will the players spend as much when coins are involved? miyaa> And then figure out how to read the symbols (which was Draconic slang). DungeonScout> miyaa> not so much of a riddle as a code that way. Still cool though. miyaa> I've also used tarot decks or playing cards as code words. Top it off with the deck of many things, people could die while trying to figure out what the cards said. WizO_Shadow> riddle, code, puzzle, enigma. anythng to stump the players nad make them problem solve iC WizO_Shadow> Miyaa, brilliant! WizO_Shadow> cruel and brilliant DungeonScout> I like puzzles the best. I find it more likely that they be solved. Entymal> oh sure, and I get in trouble for saving corpses WizO_Shadow> Dungeon, true and they are easier to implement in game writing them down and just saying the riddle when the magic mouth appears. WizO_Shadow> For campaign based riddles though where they need to gather several clues to solve it in the end, it does help the players if they have handouts so htey can keep a record or solve as they go Entymal> true, the props are almost essential in a long term riddle Entymal> a tangible reminder of important clues DungeonScout> It is so much easier to explain a riddle with props instead of making sure that they visualize what you are saying. WizO_Shadow> agreed! WizO_Shadow> However, as if the DM doesn't have enough to do planning out the next game, making props shouldn't take a long time. WizO_Shadow> A wonderful example of a campaign long puzzle is the rod of seven parts. WizO_Shadow> Needing to adventure here and there to gather the items miyaa> Sounds like a Where's Waldo epic adventure. ungeonScout hates Waldo with a passion. WizO_Shadow> miyaa, yup! Much more fun that spot-slash-hack IMO ;) Entymal> I've always enjoyed moral quandaries WizO_Shadow> Entymal, an example please? miyaa> While I would never develop a campaign around a single or group of items, perhaps if they got the pieces while they were on their quest, that would be interesting. Entymal> well, this one is harsh, I saw it on a star wars website to tempt jedi, but it would also work with paladins gstommylee> dugeon how about wheres Wizo_shadow (er wait already found her ) WizO_Shadow> gstom, I'm hiding in your shadow :P Entymal> but a law that children must do ANYTHING an elder says, to include what is obviously immoral gstommylee> (pst your doing it again shadow) Entymal> do you defy the law to spare the children? perhaps causing major political trouble? Entymal> what you end up with is a moral character either sucking it up and allowing evil to happen, or breaking laws and becoming villains DungeonScout> So much fun! Entymal> there's a sticky puzzle joseph_stoneking> Moral quandries and ambiguities are interesting if done with the proper mindset. miyaa> You know what also makes good riddles: music. Kind of like that scene from the goonies where someone has to play a certain melody the right way, or else each bad note send them closer to their doom. WizO_Shadow> That's a great idea miyaa> Then you wish you had a bard. WizO_Shadow> LOL WizO_Shadow> "we're all fighters with CHA of 8's because we don't need that stat!" "humm... maybe you should've thought about one of you having a good stat in CHA to balance the party out...." joseph_stoneking> And then everybody turns to the Sorcerer who constantly is casting Charm Person Spells... and expects him to know a thing about music. WizO_Shadow> yup! WizO_Shadow> Using the party's weaknesses against them. miyaa> Of course, I'd be equally as likely as have as a puzzle, the 'Great Sphinxter.' joseph_stoneking> That just sounds wrong. WizO_Shadow> So we went over Defining a riddle, rewards for riddles, penalties for not solving the riddle, what to do when it's a grey area, placing the advanced riddles in a campaing, and enhancing the game/riddles with handouts. miyaa> It's not that bad. A sphinx has a problem with passing gas, a lot. And you have to find and develope a cure from the elements around you. A sort of a McGuyver plot. DungeonScout loves Mcqyver. WizO_Shadow> McGyver was the ultimate rogue. WizO_Shadow> and a racial changed gnome DungeonScout> and he was spelled with a Q contrary to poular belief. WizO_Shadow pokes Neggie WizO_Shadow> hum... well I was going to have him do my number for everyone to guess for the door prize WizO_Shadow> but he's not responding. Bad Neggie! DungeonScout> Sleep spell. WizO_Shadow hehe Entymal> oops, did I have that effect active still? Entymal> sleep+permanence? DungeonScout> Apparently you did. WizO_Negathael snores? WizO_Shadow> aha! WizO_Shadow> Neggie, Can you think of a number between 1-30 please? Whomever gets the closest gets the door prize for the Workshop today gstommylee> oh god WizO_Shadow> And whenever you are ready, let them know when to guess? CreativeMountain> 27 WizO_Negathael> Ready miyaa> What, you're afraid that Nega could think? Zycko> P2P or in here? WizO_Shadow> in here CreativeMountain> 27 gstommylee> 17 Fullmetal_Alchemist> err....12 WizO_Shadow> just type the number to the screen Zycko> 8 DungeonScout> 18 Entymal> 16 miyaa> 15 AndrewW> 8 Entymal> sorry, was already sent when yours popped up WizO_Shadow> FMA got it! It was 12! Entymal> if it makes you feel better, I'm locked into one number now Fullmetal_Alchemist> No way?! CreativeMountain> congrats! gstommylee> sigh gstommylee> oh well Entymal> congrats alchie gstommylee> i guess my parents have to spend the cash to get the book iwant joseph_stoneking> Grr. DungeonScout> Congrats Fullmetal_Alchemist Has a heart attack Zycko> congrats FMA. :) joseph_stoneking> I missed the request. Entymal is a medic Fullmetal_Alchemist> Err...can I say i rolled a 1d100 untill i got a # between 1-30? :D Entymal> really? miyaa> It's just a uncon shirt with a +1 bonus vs. ungeek women. Nothing big. Fullmetal_Alchemist> Yes WizO_Shadow> I'll email you tomorrow the confirmation number for you to choose your prize. WizO_Shadow> Let's trade riddles! Anyone got any good riddles to use in game? gstommylee> na Fullmetal_Alchemist Plays the song "Right Now" (Kick Me when I'm high) by Sr-71 Entymal> here's one from cloud kingdom I like Entymal> Honest son of sand and silver standing straight and true. Any question you deliver, the answer's always you. Fullmetal_Alchemist> I got a riddle, well two. One of them WizO_Shadow knows the answer to miyaa> A mirror Entymal> yeah. I love that one DungeonScout> I always like this one from the solo adventure in 1st ed. basic. OTTFFSS, what is the next letter? Zycko> Thats a good one WizO_Shadow> EN WizO_Shadow> I like that one too DungeonScout> The answer being E. each one is the first letter of a number. DungeonScout> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 Fullmetal_Alchemist> My connection to the divine, my words of the senses, my ability of speech, my wisedom in love and healing, my power within control and strength, my inborn creativity and emotions, and my final resort. [What Am I?] miyaa> A brain? Fullmetal_Alchemist> Nope Fullmetal_Alchemist> Just tell me when you want the answer DungeonScout> A human. Fullmetal_Alchemist> Nope. Not a human WizO_Shadow> Will power Fullmetal_Alchemist> I think this one is good for "Incarnum" stuff [hint] Fullmetal_Alchemist> Nope Entymal> soul, then? Fullmetal_Alchemist> En> close Fullmetal_Alchemist> (answer: The Seven Chakras; Crown, Thrid Eye, Throat, Heart/Lungs, Solar Plexus, Sacrum, and Root) miyaa wonders if "how many dragons would it take to change a lightbulb?" counts as a riddle? Entymal> dare you to ask one Fullmetal_Alchemist> I can be both of warm, and cold; I'm within the light, but can be deeper then the darkness; My life rest within the world's future; My true nature of spilling blood; and i'm forever red, black, and blue Iddig> chromatic dragon Fullmetal_Alchemist> Nope Iddig> Oh Fullmetal_Alchemist> The nature of man-kind Iddig> ah Fullmetal_Alchemist> Shadow> didn't you answer human? campochase> to wipe and destroy. to kill what they do not know. some protect it others seek to make profit or destroy it. (no not a riddle just typed it for no reason) WizO_Shadow> nope WizO_Shadow> I said love Fullmetal_Alchemist> Love is pretty close. So is death, sorrow, pain, sadness, cheerful, etc. Human nature is unexplainable Entymal> from the 3.0 pool of radiance game, to free an imprisoned sorceror: A quest of love begins with me. I am made endlessly. When I drop I say my name. Touch the rock, freedom gain. Entymal> only the first 3 sentences are necessary for the riddle itself WizO_Shadow> answer was heart :) Fullmetal_Alchemist> Err..I was going to say that, but I was thinking fear Entymal> not heart Iddig> I'm guessing tears Zycko> I was going to say the same Iddig Iddig> Was on the fence between tears or water Entymal> when I drop I say my name. big clue Iddig> Rain drop ;-) Entymal> give up? Iddig> sure Entymal> ring Entymal> the sorceror wouldn't commit, so his girl trapped him in a rock until he figured out he was supposed to propose. Entymal> never date a temperemantal sorceror Fullmetal_Alchemist has left the room Iddig> you might have to explaun that one to me, I'm not seeing how the answer ties with the hints...But, I'm not good with riddles... Entymal> a quest of love-marriage Entymal> endlessly- it's a circle Entymal> drop it, it makes a ringing sound Entymal> it was worse in the game because the word wrap threw the rythm and punctuation off Iddig> might want to change the quest of love begins with me...Marriages aren't always about love, and those that are aren't usually the begining of the quest. But, that's just me Iddig nods Entymal> okay, granted. Zycko> Entymal - that one could be great to use where it isn't required for the players to get the solution - it's sort of a "side quest". They come about the rock with the sorcerer, but it is not needed for them to solve to continue. Entymal> exactly Zycko> Well, what could we change the first line to then..? Entymal> a good joke there too, he was perfectly preserved, but still conscious while in the rock, it was years Entymal> he said a beholder used every ray on him over and over, finally left crying gstommylee has left the room Entymal> can you imagine a crying beholder? Iddig> Quest of Marriage begins with me...perhaps? Or it might make it too obvious Iddig> enty: LOL, nice Zycko> Don't overestimate your players. :P Zycko> A quest of commitment perhaps? Entymal> aren't they all though? Zycko> Since that could also be something else, like you take on a mission or something. Entymal> I don't think it could be much improved. I like it mostly because the back story was so well integrated with the riddle. Iddig> Zycko: Even better Entymal> but the riddle itself was a pain. I only got it because I attacked the rock while wearing a ring WizO_Shadow