Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omega the Powerfull 09-13-06, 10:27 PM	This is not exectly a question. I want to know what other DM's do when a player character advances a level. Do you allow the character to gain all the powers and skill of the next level right away or they have to spend some time training by themselves, or even have to find a teacher for that?
DarkNick 09-13-06, 10:38 PM	I've seen all of these done and they all worked within the context of those games. Sometimes making characters train can be a good way to get them to burn money. But end of the day it is so much easier to just allow characters to go up a level whenever they have the experience and there is a lull in the adventure (Like they go back to town to rest etc..). They gain all the powers and skills of the next level. This is what I do. The question you should ask yourself it "will it be fun?" I think making players find a trainer is boring, though sometimes if a character wants a particulalry powerful feat or ability you might rule they need to find a teacher. This can be an adventure in itself. You would do this to make the feat/power seem even more special. Alternatively I have sometimes ruled that in order to change class it can't be a spur of the moment thing. Either the character had specified they were heading in that direction or they find a teacher - similar to MrOnion below (or I create the opportunity to find a teacher - makes for a nice little roleplay moment)
CrippleMrOnion 09-13-06, 10:38 PM	Good question, and I think this thread may lead to a lot of good ideas if everyone can keep their hackles down. Personally, I let the characters advance in their level as soon as they've had some downtime. Since I very carefully build the campaign around the characters' backstories and in-game actions, usually the downtime can come very quickly after they've acheived the level. I've heard of DMs who require actual training to take place for leveling up, but I don't view the level up as a spontaneous event, I feel that the training has taken place during the previous level. Every combat was, in essence, part of the training. Every skill use, every spell cast, etc. The one exception to my leniency is prestige classes. I'm quite strict about them (not that I restrict them, just that I make getting one more of an event than just levelling up... I actually had a cavalier wanna-be fill out a job application and go to an interview). When one levels up in a PrC that's tied to an organization, I generally require some contact with that organization. Other PrCs, like Animal Lord, wouldn't have that requirement, though, but my players just love organizations for some reason...
Sildatorak 09-13-06, 10:39 PM	I only hand out xp when the PC's are at a fairly good stopping place and have a bit of time to rest. Even if it is a day or two, it prevents the *DING!* effect that threatens verisimilitude. I don't have specific rules regarding training, I figure that in their down time and boring travel time the PC's are practicing and working towards the abilities they will next be acquiring. The level isn't a sudden jump in ability out of nowhere, it is a sudden jump of finally "getting it down," IMO.
Omega the Powerfull 09-13-06, 10:56 PM	Even if it is a day or two, it prevents the *DING!* effect that threatens verisimilitude. I've ruled recently, exactly to avoid the DING! effect, that when a character advances a level they only get: hit ponits (after a night of rest of course), BAB and saves right away. All the rest, including new class abilities, feats, skills, etc... they get only after a week of training.
Miratos 09-13-06, 11:00 PM	For my campaigns it depends: During an adventure I give them the mechanics, such as bab, saves, spell slots (or points), stat points, hit points, action points, additional uses of existing abilities, etc. For new class abilities, feats and skills I pretty much make them go back to town and train during a few days of downtime. Unless it involves getting into a hard to find PrC, I don't generally bother roleplaying out training or having to find trainers -- we hand wave it.
Thunder Dragonbane 09-14-06, 12:02 AM	I generally have let the players make their upgrades between sessions, regardless when in game they leveled up. If I am running a game I will also expect to see a list of their prepaired spells. I want to know what spells they have. { Not to be a complete donkey either, I no longer have access to all of the books that I once had, if I cannot look up the spell on my time they cannot have it.} As for requiring training, I only do that if the feat, skill, ability, or class is beond the scope of what they could have learned from their own class abilities or another PC.
olshanski_home 09-14-06, 12:19 AM	Advancing levels can only happen between sessions. Gaining extra spells can only happen after a rest. Thus: If we end a session in between 2 battles, the characters can advance a level during our down-time, and when they show up, the characters are more effective in combat. Spellcasters must rest to get the spells they gain from going up a level.
Seraphine_Harmonium 09-14-06, 01:11 AM	I know the ways many people have said that they do it is probably better, but out of laziness, I just let them level up immediately. It takes time away from gaming, but my group hasn't found it to detract. By the way, check out my campaign world (link below)
Salla 09-14-06, 01:36 AM	For me 'it depends'. For most normal levelling-up, they just level up at the end of the session. I presume that they've been practicing and training in various ways off-camera during the journey, and at this point they 'get it', so to speak. Finding training is difficult because most level-ups take place away from civilization, and I run Eberron anyway, so finding a character with a high PC class is pretty difficult. The exception are prestige classes with membership requirements, which require, of course, finding the group and joining up.
Mitchell 09-14-06, 01:46 AM	1) Give them the level at the end of the day, after I have had a chance to calculate XP. Doesn't matter where they are adventure-wise. 2) Give it to them immediately, no matter where they are adventure-wise, though not in the middle of combat. I look at it as a gradual improvement, though it doesn't improve mechanically until a certain point. Presumably the characters have been improving their combat skill (BAB), skills (whatever they sink skill points in), and whatever else (feats, saves, etc) during the course of their current level. No need for them to have to go train any further before they can see a measure of improvement. Besides, if the PCs are among, if not the, most powerful of heroes, who's going to train them anyway? Finding trainers would become adventures in their own right.
Endarire 09-14-06, 02:09 AM	I notify them when they can advance in level and if they want to radically change classes, like from cleric to wizard, they need time and perhaps a trainer. PrC entry depends wholly on how I feel the PrC fits into the world. Archmage requires specific training and there's only one school in the world that will teach students, but there are certain other people willing and able to teach, but learning from these tutors requires a favor. After entry, I have almost no qualms about just letting people advance in a class or PrC. -EE
Robert Craven 09-14-06, 02:49 AM	Of course I allow them to gain all benefits right away. All campaigns I've run so far do not allow for extended down-time. Like the current City of the Spider Queen. During one week in-game time they already gained 2 levels. And the whole quest offers no time for training. The only thing I do enforce is picking up certain new classes or prestige classes. Some of those are simply not possible to take without prior training, initiation or whatever. Wizard being the most obvisious example. And I give out XP at the end of each session and they do all the level-up until the next session, unless we have to take a break during combat. Than the encounter will be finished first.
Xykon 09-14-06, 05:16 AM	I've ruled recently, exactly to avoid the DING! effect, that when a character advances a level they only get: hit ponits (after a night of rest of course), BAB and saves right away. All the rest, including new class abilities, feats, skills, etc... they get only after a week of training. Pretty much the same with what we do although they had to be in a reasonable environ to even begin training. i.e. they cannot level up if they are staying in a underground shack, or in the middle of a desert. As for the environs it would depend really on the class or prestige class. Training itself is 1 week but they have to find the right environs before even starting to train. For most standard classes except wizards and clerics this is pretty much anywhere where people live. For clerics/wizards they need to be in a small town at least. For other specialized prestige classes (i.e. horizon walker, dungeon delver) they have to be in the appropriate environment to begin their training. And they can pay services to be transported this if the location too far or requires magical means to get there. But i do away with "looking for an appropriate trainer" stuff. Leveling up already takes a long time and i wouldn't ever want to extend the time by railroading them into yet another side quest.
MarkB 09-14-06, 07:02 AM	I put no particular restriction on when characters can level up, and they gain all abilities except spellcasting immediately. Extra spellcasting slots are considered expended until they can refresh them by resting. It takes an average of 13 encounters for a character to gain a level, so in an extended dungeon or wilderness adventure it's entirely possible to gain multiple levels without ever going near training facilities. It seems harsh and pointless for characters' abilities to lag their actual level by that margin for multiple sessions. As Mitchell described, it's not a sudden 'DING', it's the culmination of a variety of gradual improvements that are only now paying off sufficiently to be noticeable.
Johannes 09-14-06, 07:20 AM	Some of our games have featured extended downtime for the PCs; some have had nearly none. As PCs acquire things in the course of their adventures, such as skill ranks, feats, attribute modifiers (positive or negative), etc, these acquisitions either become part of the normal levelling-up abilities or end up being bonuses above and beyond what was gained with their level. We treat the experience the PCs gain as fluidly as possible... but of course, some character 'perks' demand formal training (e.g. acquisition of certain prestige classes). In short, we try to make those judgements on a case-for-case basis. It works out well for us.
Omega the Powerfull 09-14-06, 08:37 AM	As for the environs it would depend really on the class or prestige class. Training itself is 1 week but they have to find the right environs before even starting to train. Hummm....environs. That's pretty good.:thumbsup: It takes an average of 13 encounters for a character to gain a level, so in an extended dungeon or wilderness adventure it's entirely possible to gain multiple levels without ever going near training facilities. It seems harsh and pointless for characters' abilities to lag their actual level by that margin for multiple sessions. And what about skills, do you allow the players to pick up ranks in any skill or only the ones they've used? And if they want to chance class or pick up a prestige class?
Kimokeo 09-14-06, 08:50 AM	My group is essentially shipwrecked on an island that is part of an island chain of nothing but evil denizens. There are no towns that they know of (actually there was one, they killed most of the evil lizardmen and now they don't want them in town anymore - go figure) There are no places for them to train. Their entire existence is currently looking over their shoulders. They have been on the island for almost a full two weeks and went from 0xp 1st level to 4th level now. It's rapid advancement but what can I or they do. Every day IS an adventure - it's a fight for survival. When they can conquer the entire island, they may very well be 20th level - who knows. But, the island gets progressively harder as the various species are soon going to fear for their lives and collectively hunt down the parasites (PC's) For me, location can effect the decision. If there is NOWHERE to go, they must level up where they are. I at least will make them sleep before they go up.
MarkB 09-14-06, 08:53 AM	And what about skills, do you allow the players to pick up ranks in any skill or only the ones they've used? And if they want to chance class or pick up a prestige class? Skills, yes, any. They may have been practising them in downtime for weeks. Prestige classes, it depends on the class. Something that's obviously backed by an organisation is out of the question unless they've had sufficient contact with that organisation already to have picked up some training. For PrCs that are more a matter of taking a more specialised path, I'll be more flexible.
oxybe 09-14-06, 09:01 AM	i'm with MarkB & Robert Craven on the insta-level up. the training is done in the downtime. i dunno about them, but with me HP, like spell slots, are added but not replenished until you sleep or healed appropriately. I agree with Mark's take on PrC's: organized ones require training. becoming a focused one, like a Frenzied Berserker or Peerless Archer, do not.
Sereno 09-14-06, 09:46 AM	Do you allow the character to gain all the powers and skill of the next level right away or they have to spend some time training by themselves, or even have to find a teacher for that? I let my PCs start using their new skills as soon as they level. In my opinion, and in my campaign, the PCs are "incrementally" learning these new skills all throughout the time in which they're acruing XP on their way to that next level. I assume that the fighter-types are trying to learn new combat tricks and until the level is gained, they just haven't got the knack of (say) Improved Sunder, yet. The sorcerers/wizards are working out the details of new spells and how to use their magic better in every encounter and in between. The rogues are always polishing their skills and learning more about sticking their blade in the most hurtful places. The cleric/druid is growing in their faith and improving their connection to their deity. Unless they're going for a PrC with obvious organizational requirements, they don't need to seek out trainers. There's also a logic problem when someone has been a fighter for 10 levels and then suddenly takes a level of wizard, especially in the absence of a school or library ... but, none of my players would do this without seriously role-playing it, first.
Solik 09-14-06, 10:35 AM	Depends on the campaign. If the PCs aren't constantly being rushed from place to place, I try to require training with relatively extended downtime (a couple weeks to a month). The benefit of this is that it allows for the passage of time. It's always strange when you have PCs go from level 3 to level 10 in three months. Of course, PCs aren't tied down to training during that time. They can perform other down-time activities, too, such as crafting, scribing, and pursuing of character goals that don't require adventuring.
High Octane 09-14-06, 10:39 AM	This is not exectly a question. I want to know what other DM's do when a player character advances a level. Do you allow the character to gain all the powers and skill of the next level right away or they have to spend some time training by themselves, or even have to find a teacher for that? I have the character killed. 2nd level characters are overpowered.
hisnamehere 09-14-06, 11:16 AM	I apologize for not reading all the posts, so it this has been said...well, I guess I'm as repetitive as everyone else. :P Everyone seems to be discussing this as a DM, and although this is a forum for DMs... From my point of view as a player, regardless of the level-up practices of the current DM, I feel a need to emphasize my characters' ongoing training thru role-playing and simple statement. Some examples: Weapon god: Spends at least one hour a day training with his weapon of choice. Bbn learning to track: Spends his time with the group's ranger. Ftr wants to be a ranger: Tags along with the elven patrol while the rest of the group goes shopping. Spell-creation: Spend every available hour in libraries and labratories. I'm saddened by the apparent need for DMs to enforce training on their players - players should be interested enough in their characters to write their own stories, not have the DM guide their pen for them. Although this of course gets into the whole role vs. roll style. Groups that want to role will, while groups that want to roll will want their levels as quickly as possible with as little interferance of storyline as possible (the two extremes, of course, I realize that there is a ton of middle ground). I'd say that if a DM is feeling a need to enforce training (a lot or a little), he/she may be more interested in continuity and role-playing than the rest of the group, and may want to voice this to his/her players (not necessarily to enforce change, but just to get it out in the open).
mike_beavers 09-14-06, 11:21 AM	this is the way I do it. The player gets the hp, bab, current skills and saving throws immediately. If a new level of spell is acquired or a new feat or a new skill or PRC training is required with the attentant costs and the finding of somebody to do the training. I like the the mentoring feature as it makes the players explore a little more of my setting and it helps to set up more adventures for the players.
LordBolt118 09-14-06, 11:30 AM	Well, I'm new, but I'll voice my opinions anyway! I don't really want to run huge adventures with no chances to rest inbetween. Whenever my PCs grow a level, I'd like to have somewhere they can rest-when they do, they get the level bonuses. Whenever they multiclass, I'm going to either a) make a story reason for them gaining that class (e.g. for a Sorcerer), or b) have them find a trainer (e.g. for a Fighter).
Robert Craven 09-14-06, 12:30 PM	Well, I'm new, but I'll voice my opinions anyway! I don't really want to run huge adventures with no chances to rest inbetween. Whenever my PCs grow a level, I'd like to have somewhere they can rest-when they do, they get the level bonuses. Whenever they multiclass, I'm going to either a) make a story reason for them gaining that class (e.g. for a Sorcerer), or b) have them find a trainer (e.g. for a Fighter). That limits your quest to a series of minor adventures just for the sake of "reality". The time factor and the large scale are so important for an exciting quest IMHO.
Sereno 09-14-06, 01:15 PM	That limits your quest to a series of minor adventures just for the sake of "reality". The time factor and the large scale are so important for an exciting quest IMHO. The flip side to this is that players feel pressured into always dealing with "the quest," and that their own choices don't matter. Examples: Want to spend some time crafting? Too bad, the world needs saving, NOW! Want to develop a love interest with the comely tavern wench? Too bad, the Drow are attacking! Want to start a side-business? Too bad, there's a demon loose in the city and "only you" can stop it.... "Realistic" pacing is also important for a fun and exciting adventure. Cool down periods help to throw the frantic action into sharp relief. There's definately a place for "racing against the clock" adventures, but a whole campaign run that way gets tiring and (usually) feels railroad-y....
jhosmer 09-14-06, 01:26 PM	I tend to be a bit lazy when it comes to XP, so I merely rule that my players level up between adventure "modules." I design each adventure to have enough encounters and treasure to take them up one level. That way, leveling always takes place during down time.
Pandaemoni 09-14-06, 03:10 PM	I used to be pretty strict about requiring training at each level. The "they practice during downtime" theory was plainly a post hoc excuse people raised to justify ignoring the first edition rules, that seems to have been internalized by the gaming masses. Back then, it took one or more weeks to train. The number of weeks was determined by the ever so unduly complicated "ESFP" system where the DM subjectively determined how well he thought your character hewed to his alignment and gave him a ranking: E = Excellent, no notable deviations =1 S = Superior, a few notable but insignificant deviations = 2 F = Fair, significant deviations but they were still the exception = 3 P = Poor, you thought you were playing what alignment? = 4 (Why the letters? I don't know...the numbers did all the work). You then took the weighted average of the scores for that level, and the result was the number of weeks your character needed to spend training, rounded off to the neared day. Plus it cost money: Old Level x 1500 gold per week of training. The one exception was that if you scored under a "2", you did not need formal training, you could self-teach...but your training time would be doubled. (Those were the official rules, by the way, not some crazy house rules I made up). Personally, I rather liked the hunt for a trainer. It was yet another role-playing experience and it gave DMs an opportunity to toss in mentors for the characters, with whom they could interact throughout the course of the campaign. I started to see the demise of training in 2nd edition, which is when I first heard the "my character has trained over time" reasoning, which curiously was always the cry of people who rated mostly Fs and Ps. Plus, that was also the advent of video games...and insta-leveling in video games was pretty common. These days, I have largely bowed to the weight of player opinion. I still like the RP possibilities of training myself, but most players see it as an obstacle rather than an opportunity. I have experimented with ways to incentivize formal training over the autodidactic route, but have not found anything that doesn't offend the "I want to level NOW!" crowd (many of whom are not only unhappy with training, but don't want other players getting any perks or incentives if they choose to train).. I do still require formal training in a few areas, mostly when (i) you are picking up a new class, including any PrC and (ii) wizards and other prepared arcane spellcasters only add their new spells (i.e. the ones they get for free from leveling) to their spell books when they spend time in study in an appropriate library or with a mentor who teaches them those spells. On wizards, that spell related mentoring doesn't have to be done at the time they level...but they are not "researching Fireball during their downtime" if their downtime is spend in some dank cave by a campfire. (Also, I still require Druids at 12th level or higher to defeat a higher level Druid in order to advance, survival of the fittest...that's not "training" but it is in many ways similar.) On skills and feats, I basically allow learning at the time of leveling without worrying about separate training, unless it's a skill or feat that is in some way unusual (like taking ranks in Knowledge (psionics) since my games are very, very low in psionics, so it's generally unclear how a player would learn such a thing).
CrippleMrOnion 09-14-06, 03:11 PM	Let's just be honest here. We all dictate when our players level up in one way or another because we, the DM, give XP. Why not, then, just tell the players when they can level up? I stopped using XP in my game a long time ago (ok, not a long time ago, but 9 levels ago and the entirety of my current campaign). The players don't complain, and I keep track of how many combats they've had (aiming for 13.3, of course), so they level up when they would anyway if I doled out XP. Also, I can figure in quest XP and roleplaying XP just fine without having to put a numerical value to it. So far, the players have liked it and it hasn't caused any problems. The one exception to this would be item creation feats, but it's easy enough to estimate how many 'encounters' back an item would cost. If it's a low-level scroll that's basically negligible, (my that's hard to spell) then let it be negligible. If it's something of value, just see how many combats back that sets the creator. It's not hard at all, and it's a lot easier to count to 13.3 than it is to count to 36,000...