Advancing from NPC to PC class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advancing from NPC to PC class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jodjod
05-04-05, 01:02 PM Hey all, I'm looking for a relatively neat and simple way of allowing players to start off as an NPC class and convert those levels into the equivalent PC class once they've gained enough experience (expert could turn into a bard or rogue, for example). I'm looking for some tips on how make this work both as an advancement system and how to balance things. A major worry is the IC implications of turning from a thoroughly lame 4th level adept to a all mighty cleric suddenly.
Lord Ian Stark
05-04-05, 01:05 PM Why are the characters taking NPC levels?
Jodjod
05-04-05, 01:16 PM I'm trying out a low-ish power campaign. If I can't find a solution, I will probably just use regular levels with a slightly lower point buy (22 as opposed to 25).
OmiKapSi
05-04-05, 01:21 PM I played around with this concept a lot a while ago.
Just a word of warning, make sure that the players want to play a low power campaign, otherwise you'll only create annoyance.

My system was to make all the normal classes into 'prestige' classes by giving them perrequisites.
My system:
Characters first level is either commoner, noble or savage (a class I made up to represent those that grow up in the wilderness).
Depending on what they take for their first level, they may advance to Adept, Warrior or Expert.
And from there to any of the normal classes.
If this sounds interesting, I can post the prerequisites that I worked out. Using my system, a character could take a normal class as their third level without too much difficulty, although some of them required a bit of planning ahead.
Morka
05-04-05, 01:23 PM Why suddenly convert the 4 NPC levels to 4 PC levels? Simply convert the levels one at the time when the PCs get enough XP.
Thoronmir
05-04-05, 01:23 PM If you’re committed to some manner of conversion, the simplest method would be to adopt a conversion ratio. 2:1 might work out okay. They can convert 2 levels of NPC for 1 level of PC. That way, your 4th level Adept can become a 2nd level Cleric, etc. Other than that, you’re stuck with a 1:1 ratio and the jump in power that will result from direct conversion of levels.

That said, I’d never allow the players to “convert” NPC levels into PC levels in such a manner. As you note, there’s a stark difference in power between NPC classes and PC classes. Unless you can accept that the PCs will become more powerful through the conversion, you’re better off having them keep their NPC levels and just adding PC levels going forward.

If you don’t allow an even exchange, then how do you handle things like the Feats gained as a 3rd level NPC and the Ability Score modifier at 4th level? Using a 2:1 ratio to convert a 4th level NPC into a 2nd level PC will result in that PC losing at least one Feat and lowering whatever stat he raised at 4th level. You’ll also be requiring the players to re-plow much of the same ground they’ve already covered in terms of character progression.

I won’t speculate as to your motive for wanting to do this. However, I can tell why and how I used NPC levels for the PCs in my last campaign. I assembled my players and explained my concept for the campaign. It would be an “origins” campaign in which they would get to roleplay their PCs’ development from mundane villagers, nobles, etc., into “adventurers.” The PCs started out as 1st level NPC classes and we ran a couple sessions involving each PC’s motivation for becoming a PC class. My players all enjoyed it.

As for specific rules, the PCs did not progress in their NPC classes. The XP they earned for the few opening adventures of the campaign was applied to their PC classes, once they selected one. So, they never advanced past 1st level NPC. Those NPC levels were “free” to the PCs … they did not count against ECL, they did not affect XP needed for 2nd level PC, the PCs received all of the benefits of being 1st level PCs, with their levels as NPCs constituting a “bonus” that added a few Skill Points, Hit Points, and Saving Throw bonuses.

I would probably do the same thing again if I ran another campaign. But the key in my game was that we didn’t devote too much time to the PCs’ lives as NPCs. It’s nice to know that Bob the Fighter has a well-developed back story that Bob’s player got to roleplay, but does anyone want to spend more than a session or two actually playing Bob the Pig Farmer?
Finarin Panjoro
05-04-05, 03:28 PM I have allowed npcs in my campaign to swap npc levels for class levels on rare occasions usually involving some sort of special training. The NPC enters an academy, etc and converts one warrior or commoner level into a level of fighter. Then for every level he advances in fighter he may convert an npc level into a level of fighter until eventually he's a pure fighter.

I would also allow Adepts to become clerics, druids, wizards, or sorcerors (they have to sacrifice/disavow some of their former spells to learn the abilities of their new class is how I would justify the spell discrepancies).

Experts could become bards or rogues.
Aristocrats could become just about anything.
Commoners can become just about anything.

In all cases I would actually change their skill totals as well. Think of it as the atrophying of their previous skills as they embrace the new ones. This prevents cheats like taking a commoner with maxed out Spot and Listen and converting him into a fighter with maxed out Spot and Listen and so on.
Sildatorak
05-04-05, 04:06 PM What Finarin said regarding the conversion process with some extra ideas thrown in.

Assuming you want to gradually scale to a more powerful campaign, I would suggest that every X levels after level Y, the PC not only gains a level, but may convert a level of NPC class into a level of equivalent PC class.

For example (with X=1 and Y=4) a character only takes NPC classes up until level 4. At 5th level, the character can add a level of PC class and change one level of NPC class to PC class, at 6th the character gains another PC level and changes an NPC level, and so forth until she has all PC levels when she hits level 8.

So something like this
Level 1: War 1
Level 4: War 4
Level 5: War 3/Fighter 2
Level 6: War 2/Fighter 4
Level 7: War 1/Fighter 6

If you want to change the power level around, you can just vary the rate and when NPC classes start converting. (X=2 Y=6)
Level 6: War 6
Level 7: War 6/Ftr 1
Level 8: War 5/Ftr 3
Level 9: War 5/Ftr 4
Level 10: War 4/Ftr 6
...
Level 18: Ftr 18

One thing about doing these conversions is that you need to be careful when bonus feats are acquired. You probably should only allow them to be taken if they would have been able to be taken at the level the PC is converting. That is a really messy idea, so it is example time. We're going to go back to (X=1, Y=4).

The warrior 4 gains a level. That makes her into warrior 3/fighter 2, so she gains 2 bonus feats. One is from converting level 1 of warrior, though, so it can't require a BAB higher than +1, fort save higher than +2, or more than 1 or 2 feats (depending on race). The other bonus feat is for actually gaining a level, so the normal rules about meeting prereqs apply.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jodjod 05-04-05, 01:02 PM	Hey all, I'm looking for a relatively neat and simple way of allowing players to start off as an NPC class and convert those levels into the equivalent PC class once they've gained enough experience (expert could turn into a bard or rogue, for example). I'm looking for some tips on how make this work both as an advancement system and how to balance things. A major worry is the IC implications of turning from a thoroughly lame 4th level adept to a all mighty cleric suddenly.
Lord Ian Stark 05-04-05, 01:05 PM	Why are the characters taking NPC levels?
Jodjod 05-04-05, 01:16 PM	I'm trying out a low-ish power campaign. If I can't find a solution, I will probably just use regular levels with a slightly lower point buy (22 as opposed to 25).
OmiKapSi 05-04-05, 01:21 PM	I played around with this concept a lot a while ago. Just a word of warning, make sure that the players want to play a low power campaign, otherwise you'll only create annoyance. My system was to make all the normal classes into 'prestige' classes by giving them perrequisites. My system: Characters first level is either commoner, noble or savage (a class I made up to represent those that grow up in the wilderness). Depending on what they take for their first level, they may advance to Adept, Warrior or Expert. And from there to any of the normal classes. If this sounds interesting, I can post the prerequisites that I worked out. Using my system, a character could take a normal class as their third level without too much difficulty, although some of them required a bit of planning ahead.
Morka 05-04-05, 01:23 PM	Why suddenly convert the 4 NPC levels to 4 PC levels? Simply convert the levels one at the time when the PCs get enough XP.
Thoronmir 05-04-05, 01:23 PM	If you’re committed to some manner of conversion, the simplest method would be to adopt a conversion ratio. 2:1 might work out okay. They can convert 2 levels of NPC for 1 level of PC. That way, your 4th level Adept can become a 2nd level Cleric, etc. Other than that, you’re stuck with a 1:1 ratio and the jump in power that will result from direct conversion of levels. That said, I’d never allow the players to “convert” NPC levels into PC levels in such a manner. As you note, there’s a stark difference in power between NPC classes and PC classes. Unless you can accept that the PCs will become more powerful through the conversion, you’re better off having them keep their NPC levels and just adding PC levels going forward. If you don’t allow an even exchange, then how do you handle things like the Feats gained as a 3rd level NPC and the Ability Score modifier at 4th level? Using a 2:1 ratio to convert a 4th level NPC into a 2nd level PC will result in that PC losing at least one Feat and lowering whatever stat he raised at 4th level. You’ll also be requiring the players to re-plow much of the same ground they’ve already covered in terms of character progression. I won’t speculate as to your motive for wanting to do this. However, I can tell why and how I used NPC levels for the PCs in my last campaign. I assembled my players and explained my concept for the campaign. It would be an “origins” campaign in which they would get to roleplay their PCs’ development from mundane villagers, nobles, etc., into “adventurers.” The PCs started out as 1st level NPC classes and we ran a couple sessions involving each PC’s motivation for becoming a PC class. My players all enjoyed it. As for specific rules, the PCs did not progress in their NPC classes. The XP they earned for the few opening adventures of the campaign was applied to their PC classes, once they selected one. So, they never advanced past 1st level NPC. Those NPC levels were “free” to the PCs … they did not count against ECL, they did not affect XP needed for 2nd level PC, the PCs received all of the benefits of being 1st level PCs, with their levels as NPCs constituting a “bonus” that added a few Skill Points, Hit Points, and Saving Throw bonuses. I would probably do the same thing again if I ran another campaign. But the key in my game was that we didn’t devote too much time to the PCs’ lives as NPCs. It’s nice to know that Bob the Fighter has a well-developed back story that Bob’s player got to roleplay, but does anyone want to spend more than a session or two actually playing Bob the Pig Farmer?
Finarin Panjoro 05-04-05, 03:28 PM	I have allowed npcs in my campaign to swap npc levels for class levels on rare occasions usually involving some sort of special training. The NPC enters an academy, etc and converts one warrior or commoner level into a level of fighter. Then for every level he advances in fighter he may convert an npc level into a level of fighter until eventually he's a pure fighter. I would also allow Adepts to become clerics, druids, wizards, or sorcerors (they have to sacrifice/disavow some of their former spells to learn the abilities of their new class is how I would justify the spell discrepancies). Experts could become bards or rogues. Aristocrats could become just about anything. Commoners can become just about anything. In all cases I would actually change their skill totals as well. Think of it as the atrophying of their previous skills as they embrace the new ones. This prevents cheats like taking a commoner with maxed out Spot and Listen and converting him into a fighter with maxed out Spot and Listen and so on.
Sildatorak 05-04-05, 04:06 PM	What Finarin said regarding the conversion process with some extra ideas thrown in. Assuming you want to gradually scale to a more powerful campaign, I would suggest that every X levels after level Y, the PC not only gains a level, but may convert a level of NPC class into a level of equivalent PC class. For example (with X=1 and Y=4) a character only takes NPC classes up until level 4. At 5th level, the character can add a level of PC class and change one level of NPC class to PC class, at 6th the character gains another PC level and changes an NPC level, and so forth until she has all PC levels when she hits level 8. So something like this Level 1: War 1 Level 4: War 4 Level 5: War 3/Fighter 2 Level 6: War 2/Fighter 4 Level 7: War 1/Fighter 6 If you want to change the power level around, you can just vary the rate and when NPC classes start converting. (X=2 Y=6) Level 6: War 6 Level 7: War 6/Ftr 1 Level 8: War 5/Ftr 3 Level 9: War 5/Ftr 4 Level 10: War 4/Ftr 6 ... Level 18: Ftr 18 One thing about doing these conversions is that you need to be careful when bonus feats are acquired. You probably should only allow them to be taken if they would have been able to be taken at the level the PC is converting. That is a really messy idea, so it is example time. We're going to go back to (X=1, Y=4). The warrior 4 gains a level. That makes her into warrior 3/fighter 2, so she gains 2 bonus feats. One is from converting level 1 of warrior, though, so it can't require a BAB higher than +1, fort save higher than +2, or more than 1 or 2 feats (depending on race). The other bonus feat is for actually gaining a level, so the normal rules about meeting prereqs apply.