Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mike1977 08-25-03, 09:40 PM	I've got a concept for an adventure that I would like to realize but I could use some help. Here is the big picture: -The party finds out that there is an abandonned dragons lair somewhere in the mountains. -The dragon of this lair has been slain by a wizard (Ren) several years ago. -The treasure that belonged to this dragon has never been touched because it is garded by Ren who has become an undead that guards it. -Ren only attacks if the treasure is disturbed. He just stands there and waits in the lair. Details I need help with: 1.What color should the dragon have been? 2.How old should he have been? 3.What level would the wizard had to have been to kill the dragon? 4.How did he become an undead (What during the great battle could have done this?)? 5.What kind of undead is he? Lich? Skeleton? Any feedback you guys can give me would be greatly appreaciated... Thanx guys!
Darklyte64 08-25-03, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by Mike1977 I've got a concept for an adventure that I would like to realize but I could use some help. Here is the big picture: -The party finds out that there is an abandonned dragons lair somewhere in the mountains. -The dragon of this lair has been slain by a wizard (Ren) several years ago. -The treasure that belonged to this dragon has never been touched because it is garded by Ren who has become an undead that guards it. -Ren only attacks if the treasure is disturbed. He just stands there and waits in the lair. Details I need help with: 1.What color should the dragon have been? 2.How old should he have been? 3.What level would the wizard had to have been to kill the dragon? 4.How did he become an undead (What during the great battle could have done this?)? 5.What kind of undead is he? Lich? Skeleton? Any feedback you guys can give me would be greatly appreaciated... Thanx guys! 1. You need to decide if the dragon was good or evil. perhaps a good dragon killed by an evil wizard? that would make sense. why did he kill the dragon? just for the treasure? maybe he wanted to use the dragons lair. 2. Depends on the level of the person that defeated it. 3 . The CR, effectively the level, of the wizard should be a bit higher than the average level of your party. Since he is the BBEG he should be a decent challenge, not to mention have minions 4. Now there is the question that REALLY baffles me. I don't see why a wizard would kill a dragon, only to become undead and just stand around guarding some treasure. If anything, the dragon could have cursed him or something. Perhaps it was a very greedy red dragon and even in death, he would not relent his treasure, cursing the mage to eternally guard his horde. But I am still concerned as to why the wizard would have attacked in the first place. You need motivation in three areas: Why the wizard wanted to kill the dragon Why the wizard still guards the treasure Why the players should even be concerned 5. Lich is probably best, since some mages believe that the only true way to become truely powerful is to embrace undeath.
Mike1977 08-25-03, 10:06 PM	Here is the thing... The Wizards has become a "mindless" undead... And now all he does is guard the treasure... I don't think it really matters why he attacked the dragon... If you think about it its pretty much useless information to a party that enters the Empty dragons lair several years later. I am having problems getting from: The Big Battle: Wizard (Ren) Vs. Dragon to Dead Dragon, Wizards condemmed to guard the dragons horde has an undead.... Mindless... Any feedback it good guys... :)
Darklyte64 08-25-03, 10:17 PM	How about this: The dragon was actually an avatar or at least favored by Nerull or one of his cults. Ren was raiding it for treasure to further his research (or something) and defeated the dragon. the cult (or nerull) was, however, alerted to the dragons defeat. Ren was then cursed by the cult priests (or, again, Nerull) to never be able to spend a copper of the treasure and replace the dragon, guarding the treasure even in death.
VirgilCaine 08-25-03, 10:21 PM	Dragons are known for developing great, unique magics(See the Wyrms of the North Feature in the FR seciton of www.wizards.com) . That should explain everything about the magic-the dragon is greedy and miserly and curses whoever kills him to never profit from their kill.
Mike1977 08-25-03, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by Darklyte64 How about this: The dragon was actually an avatar or at least favored by Nerull or one of his cults. Ren was raiding it for treasure to further his research (or something) and defeated the dragon. I really like this idea to this point. Originally posted by Darklyte64 the cult (or nerull) was, however, alerted to the dragons defeat. Ren was then cursed by the cult priests (or, again, Nerull) to never be able to spend a copper of the treasure and replace the dragon, guarding the treasure even in death. But I have a concern about this part... How much time would have had to elapse between the Dragon Dying, and the Cult being alerted and taking action?
nevick 08-25-03, 10:28 PM	The treasure is cursed and whoever defeats its guardian and claim ownership becomes the guardian of the treasure and is bound to it. can only be released by death or some other means. Might be a result of a badly worded Wish spell hundreds of years ago, like "I wish to be rich forever". trapping the wish caster and whoever was lured by the treasure (read the dragon and wizard and ultimately, the players) the current guardian might hint to a way to break the curse thus releasing him and awarding the treasure to the players. crazy side quest ensues, hunt for old scrolls or something players finally breaks the curse whish causes the current guardian to be free.. he might attack or thank you and the treasure is theirs!.. or something =P
Darklyte64 08-25-03, 10:28 PM	Not much. this could lead in to your next quest. The dragon's lair, IMC, would be the enterance to the cult headquarters. The curse could have been casted centuries ago, but Ren is ever vigilent in protecting the treasure and the enterance. You could even have some sort of little riddle hinting at that there is more than just gold here something along the lines of "Those who dear defile our treasure shall join our army!" or something better than that. don't forget to allow him zombie and skeleton warriors to help him. others who have fallen in attempts to get the treasure (or even find the cult) He's a pretty powerful wizard at this point. I like nevicks Idea too :)
Aerl_Torn 08-26-03, 04:16 AM	What if the wizard defeated the dragon but was mortally wounded and had to make himself undead in a last desperate atempt to stay alive but the spell failed so he became a mindless gurdian?
Mike1977 08-26-03, 09:04 AM	Originally posted by Aerl_Torn What if the wizard defeated the dragon but was mortally wounded and had to make himself undead in a last desperate atempt to stay alive but the spell failed so he became a mindless gurdian? I like this idea a little more... I would really like to come up with something simple... Something that happened during the battle, that killed the dragon, and condemmed the Wizard...
Island Walker 08-26-03, 10:20 AM	heres my idea, its might be a little out there. Okay so, Ren arrives at the dragons lair hopeiong to defeat the beast and gains its hord. He pulls out a new magical item he hopes with steal the dragons soul, killing it instantly. Unfortunatlly something goes horribly wrong and the device backfires. The unleashed magical energy lash through the dragons lair killing the dragon and trapped the wizards soul turning him ito an unthinking lich (Or other undead). Now the magic device is part of the dragons hord (although broken) and still holds the wizards soul. If the players destroy the item the wizard is free, if they kill the undead without destroying the device he will be reborn as undead in 1d4 hours. So thats my take on it
Mike1977 08-26-03, 12:18 PM	Originally posted by Island Walker heres my idea, its might be a little out there. Okay so, Ren arrives at the dragons lair hopeiong to defeat the beast and gains its hord. He pulls out a new magical item he hopes with steal the dragons soul, killing it instantly. Unfortunatlly something goes horribly wrong and the device backfires. The unleashed magical energy lash through the dragons lair killing the dragon and trapped the wizards soul turning him ito an unthinking lich (Or other undead). Now the magic device is part of the dragons hord (although broken) and still holds the wizards soul. If the players destroy the item the wizard is free, if they kill the undead without destroying the device he will be reborn as undead in 1d4 hours. So thats my take on it I really like where this is going, but let me add a little more info about the party... We are just starting out, and they are all currently level 1. This Empty Dragon's Lair is immediately accessible if they want to go there, but will more then likely be done after another quest or two, that may be a little easier to begin with. My main problem here is that I want a room setup in the lair that has all the treasure and that is protected by this undead Wizard (Ren)... All he really does is prevent passage, he is not out to kill intruders, but will do so if anyone tries to push him asside. What is really important to note here, is that I cannot allow the players to get past him, because the treasure hoard would be too much for a lvl 1 party. And when I say get past him, the same would apply if they could break the spell that has trapped his soul... I really like the concept, but not sure how to best implement it.
gnimish 08-26-03, 12:38 PM	Egad - 1st level party? Just make the wizard an insane ghost/spectre or something along those lines. Maybe he likes it when people come to see HIS treasure and even shows it off. However, he will most certainly stop them if they dare think of trying to remove it. As a ghost, he can still cast some spells (limited) and is powerful enough that a first level party doesn't stand a chance against him. The insane (obsessive about the treasure and incredibly suspicious about offers for help, etc.) coupled with incorporeal (can't move the treasure) should close that loophole nicely. If the party encounters Ren, make sure he gives them some kind of "warning shot" to ensure that even the most greed-blinded PC will understand the folly of attacking.
nevick 08-26-03, 01:12 PM	I dont see any problems with a 1st level party, they obviously cant fight anything powerful but you can have them witness great power, makes them think "one day i will be powerful enough to take those things on".
Mike1977 08-26-03, 02:21 PM	How does this sound guys? This lair was once home to a Red Dragon, until one day a Wizard named Ren entered the lair and killed the dragon. The battle was a very close one, and Ren was badly injured as he delivered the fatal blow. Upon the dragons death Ren saw the wurms great horde of treasure. Unfortunately for him his injuries we bad and he was dying. In a final attempt to save his life he transferred his life force into a crystal ball, and his body become that of an undead. This undead that would forever guard Ren’s life force in the crystal ball amongst the dragon’s treasure.
krichaiushii 08-26-03, 02:29 PM	Once upon an earlier edition, there was a creature called a Crypt Thing (since converted to 3.0 in Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors) whose purpose was to keep people out. This undead's primary offense was to Teleport opposing creatures away. According to the Tome of Horrors, the direction and distance of this teleport is random, but that is up to the DM. ;) Anyhow, a variation on this might fit the bill.
skrayper2003 08-26-03, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Mike1977 Here is the thing... The Wizards has become a "mindless" undead... And now all he does is guard the treasure... I don't think it really matters why he attacked the dragon... If you think about it its pretty much useless information to a party that enters the Empty dragons lair several years later. I am having problems getting from: The Big Battle: Wizard (Ren) Vs. Dragon to Dead Dragon, Wizards condemmed to guard the dragons horde has an undead.... Mindless... Any feedback it good guys... :) Mindless undead would not be able to cast spells, making his wizardly powers go bye bye. Most mindless undead don't have very high CR's. Better to have him not be mindless, just cursed/geased/etc in some way that forces him to stay there. This might even make him insane, therefore a more interesting character. Mindless undead like that don't serve the purpose of mindless undead, they're designed to overwhelm. Just my opinion, but I certainly wouldn't make him mindless. Otherwise, how could he cast spells?
skrayper2003 08-26-03, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by Mike1977 How does this sound guys? This lair was once home to a Red Dragon, until one day a Wizard named Ren entered the lair and killed the dragon. The battle was a very close one, and Ren was badly injured as he delivered the fatal blow. Upon the dragons death Ren saw the wurms great horde of treasure. Unfortunately for him his injuries we bad and he was dying. In a final attempt to save his life he transferred his life force into a crystal ball, and his body become that of an undead. This undead that would forever guard Ren’s life force in the crystal ball amongst the dragon’s treasure. That is, essentially, a lich. The crystal ball would equal his phylactery. If the phylactery could not leave the treasure horde (possibly somehow linked to the dragon's spirirt or some other item within the treasure), then it is unlikely the lich would stray far from the treasure trove.
Mike1977 08-26-03, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by skrayper2003 Mindless undead would not be able to cast spells, making his wizardly powers go bye bye. Most mindless undead don't have very high CR's. Better to have him not be mindless, just cursed/geased/etc in some way that forces him to stay there. This might even make him insane, therefore a more interesting character. Mindless undead like that don't serve the purpose of mindless undead, they're designed to overwhelm. Just my opinion, but I certainly wouldn't make him mindless. Otherwise, how could he cast spells? An undead that spends all his time only guarding a specific item, or location, could he be anything other then mindless? I really like the idea of the Wizards dying of his wounds but then putting his lifeforce in the crystall ball... But what to do with his corpse? What kind of undead would guard the ball? Lich? Or is that too far fetched? The reason I keep using the word mindless is because I don't want the undead to leave the treasure room.
Walker in Darkness 08-26-03, 06:00 PM	then make it a lich who is held by the power of the dragons spirit. Then when the players eventually defeat the lich the dragons spirit could appear and thank them for avenging it or something.
Mike1977 08-26-03, 06:14 PM	I guess it ain't a red dragon then... lol
Darklyte64 08-26-03, 06:15 PM	Mike, I'm curious as to which one you are choosing :)
Damren 08-26-03, 07:35 PM	What if you go with a Curse (see Darklyte64 & nevic) or a Contingency/Geas combination? Suppose the dragon, whichever you desire, has something very much worth taking in his treasure. He was placed here to guard the item, or values the item for his own purpose. He was potent enough in certain arcane arts to have crafted a Curse of sorts; whoever slew him would guard his treasure until his return. He was also potent enough to ensure his return. But, the path to the mortal world is long, and wish-class spells are not always wisely cast. Suppose his return requires a dragon be born without a soul. And, so he waits. And, so waits the Magus Ren. Ren sought a relic of great power, he planned the dragons demise well - but understood the risk. Imagine his satisfaction at standing before the dragon victorious. Imagine his horror when finding he could not leave. Not walking, not running, not by spell and not by death itself. Unable to do little but stay there as the dragons warding magics began to twist him. He screamed, he starved, he died. It did not matter. To ease his agony, Ren took one final chance. He grasped the relic; the item the dragon itself had used to craft such wily magics. And wished for release from the horror that he had become. The relic answered, drawing his soul into itself. Leaving the Lich-like form of Ren to stand the ever-present watch.
Aerl_Torn 08-27-03, 06:47 AM	This is turning into an interesting thread, might even build an adventure around some of these ideas myself as I also lead a 1st level party.
Mike1977 08-27-03, 07:03 AM	These are some really good ideas... And this kind of a quest does not require the party to be a specific level... As long as Ren does not go crazy and start killing PC's everything will go fine... But if you think about it Ren's behavior is based on the PC's... This also gives the DM the opportunity to put large amounts of treasure in close reach of the players, but un-atainable until much later in the campaign. I am still wondering if I should go: Good Dragon / Evil Wizard Or Evil Dragon / Good Wizard Though call...
Aerl_Torn 08-27-03, 07:23 AM	The evil dragon/good wizards would be interesting as it would force the players to discuss if it would be right to steal all his treasure and opens for a much wider range of options for possible ways to get to the trauser by negotiation.
skrayper2003 08-27-03, 11:23 AM	Like I said before, a Lich would guard the ball. Plus, how I would handle it personally, after thinking about it, is this: The wizard defeats the dragon. We'll say evil wizard/evil dragon (who says alike alignments have to work together?) Well, the wizard is at -5 hp (give him the feat that allows him to stay on his feet up til -10, don't recall the name). He's dying, used up all his potions. He knows he won't survive. Something in the treasure calls out to him. He crawls towards it. With his last breath, he clutches it. He thinks he is dead, but opens his eyes, alive and well, seemingly. He realizes he has no feeling in his hands, and it dawns on him... he is now a lich/undead. He can't cope with it. He might be evil, but he never wanted to be a lich... the thought of living for eternity scares him. He's about to destroy the ball, when he starts to think of how scary the afterlife might be. He wants to end his life, but he's torn between that and not wanting to end his existence. He starts to slowly go insane, not wanting to leave the orb for fear of something destroying it, but hating it all the same for his cursed existence. This allows for a couple of things: The mage is completely devoted to the orb. It gives the mage a bit of personality depth. It's pretty logical chain of events (D&D style, anyways) He's not mindless, so he can use tactics, cast spells, etc Whatcha think?