Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 11-08-05, 11:31 PM	How do you usually give out adventure hooks? I have pretty much given up using rumors, since the PCs ignore them 100% of the time if someone isn't directly paying them for completing said adventure. Also, I have been told several times that there is a table for good rewards for the PCs by level for finishing an adventure, but I still can not find it in the dmg, a page would be appreciated.
UmbraLux 11-08-05, 11:40 PM	There are several ways I've used to present plot hooks, here are a few. Rumors and news. Possibly in several forms, sometimes with conflicting information. The trick is to make them interesting but not complete. If they want to know what it means, they'll have to go find out. Employers and beggars. Sometimes an offer of employment is made other times someone simply begs for help. Orders and demands. At times a powerful NPC (or at least one who thinks he's powerful) may demand the party do something. More often than not, this results in the party undermining or even attacking the NPC. This is a good thing, just make sure you plan for it. Treasure and clues. Maps, books, journals, and items may be found which lead to further adventures.
Paradisio 11-09-05, 12:49 AM	Ok Ill give you an example of my problem: The players are returning from the forest after some hunting and are walking through the wheat fields outside of town. They see a large mound with a trail of blood leading into it. The players continue to town and tell someone about it. The end. In the rare chance they are interested the first thing they ask to whoever they are talking to, "ok how much will you pay us?" And realistically, the answer is nothing, a villa of 400 people can't cough up 200 gold/person or something. Not to mention the people probably know nothing about the situation and thus would not offer anything, for fear that they are lying about it. But I would expect some curiosity.
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-09-05, 01:08 AM	This is a clash of stlyes. The players are looking for more direct 'do an action and get a reward', your looking more for the 'reward is simply gaming'. Look at it from the players side. The head off into the woods after a trail of blood, they find some trolls, kill them and get a little xp and treasure...but not realy that much worth wasting a whole game hour. Now If they go to town and get hired to 'rid the forest of trolls', they not only get paid to do it, but also get notability. Now what to do-- So if your players are greedy, use that hook against them. Sure they won't go after a trail of blood...but bet they would go after a trail of platinum coins. The same way, they don't realy care about finding the lost pesant boy, whoes parents can only pay five copper coins for his return.....but they would jump at the chance to go after the kmights missing payroll wagon. This works with rumors too...feed their greed. ''Olkic the dwarf just came back from slaying the red dragon of the mountain, he lost all his freinds and escaped with his life..but no treasure. He plans to head back onec he heals up though and loot the horde.'' You can do the old, old Jewel of the Nile trick. Everyone talks about the 'great huge jewel', and the greedy players drool. And the 'jewel' turns out to be a small girl. Note that you don't have to give them the big reward..Sure they track down the missing money wagon, but they can't keep the loot. Of course you can also give them forced hooks too. Give one a curse, that can only be removed by 'the old man of the swamp' BT
rkr1970 11-09-05, 01:11 AM	Ok Ill give you an example of my problem: The players are returning from the forest after some hunting and are walking through the wheat fields outside of town. They see a large mound with a trail of blood leading into it. The players continue to town and tell someone about it. The end. In the rare chance they are interested the first thing they ask to whoever they are talking to, "ok how much will you pay us?" And realistically, the answer is nothing, a villa of 400 people can't cough up 200 gold/person or something. Not to mention the people probably know nothing about the situation and thus would not offer anything, for fear that they are lying about it. But I would expect some curiosity. Hooks like these are "ah, neat" type hooks. You need to HOOK the group. For example, look at PC backgrounds and find things in there to pique the party interest. If the party is friendly with an NPC, have them go to rescue this person. There might be a rash of thieves in town who either stole the PCs equipment, or worse, their identities (as in commited crimes while looking like party members). If you are going to hook the player, you need to bait that hook well! Of course, you could always have some NPC come into the tavern, toss the bartender several gold to keep the party's drinks full, then thank the party for letting him know about the monster with all that treasure.... :evillaugh Let's see them walk right past even a poorly baited hook after they found out the guy now has 12,000 gp just for killing a few zombies!
Slyde Shadowdart 11-09-05, 01:13 AM	Ok Ill give you an example of my problem: The players are returning from the forest after some hunting and are walking through the wheat fields outside of town. They see a large mound with a trail of blood leading into it. The players continue to town and tell someone about it. The end. In the rare chance they are interested the first thing they ask to whoever they are talking to, "ok how much will you pay us?" And realistically, the answer is nothing, a villa of 400 people can't cough up 200 gold/person or something. Not to mention the people probably know nothing about the situation and thus would not offer anything, for fear that they are lying about it. But I would expect some curiosity. I don't know if this will help, because I'm not sure I'll be able to explain what I mean well, but here goes: Okay. You know your group won't really be interested unless they're being paid. Use that to your advantage. A group of mercenaries is one of the easiest groups to DM/GM for, once you've accepted that that's what they are. If they want to be paid, pay them. I'll use your situation as an example: The players are returning from the forest after some hunting and are walking through the wheat fields outside of town. They see a large mound with a trail of blood leading into it. The players continue to town and tell someone about it. Pretty soon, word gets around this small town that the PC's/strangers were talking about a large mound with a trail of blood leading into it. Now, you've already mentioned that the small town can't afford to pay them to go investigate it, but <insert bad-arse NPC with both money and an ulterior motive> can! He receives word that this group of strangers has mentioned being all too willing to investigate, for the right price. So he sets up a meeting with them. To start, he'll offer them a pretty low payment for checking into the mound <again, since "the mound" fits into his ulterior motive somehow>. If they balk at the low number, he lets slip that if they'll investigate quietly, he'll double the payment. (or some other way of negotiating the price up till they'll do it, just never let it seem directly that way) BOOM! Now, you've got the PC's going off to check out the mound. They're happy (being paid), and you're happy (story is going forward). It might take a bit of extra effort, but if you keep it seeming like they're being paid decently for everything, they'll be happy. Now, to take it a bit further, mercs are bound to create enemies becuase their loyalty is for sale. That can create all kinds of plot hooks just by itself. Also, once you've got a group of mercs satisfied with the "fact" that they'll be paid, you can set up all kinds of adventures/sessions. The "betrayal", the "non-payment", the "someone beat us to it", the "the BBEG's mercs are more powerful than us". Granted, when I put it like that it sounds like a horrible cliche (well, cause all things are cliches eventually), but it can make for a great running game. Hope that helps out.
Paradisio 11-09-05, 01:22 AM	Hooks like these are "ah, neat" type hooks. You need to HOOK the group. For example, look at PC backgrounds and find things in there to pique the party interest. If the party is friendly with an NPC, have them go to rescue this person. There might be a rash of thieves in town who either stole the PCs equipment, or worse, their identities (as in commited crimes while looking like party members). If you are going to hook the player, you need to bait that hook well! Of course, you could always have some NPC come into the tavern, toss the bartender several gold to keep the party's drinks full, then thank the party for letting him know about the monster with all that treasure.... :evillaugh Let's see them walk right past even a poorly baited hook after they found out the guy now has 12,000 gp just for killing a few zombies! All but one PC doesn't have a backstory, and they pretty much refuse to give me one. I tried giving character specific hooks once, but only one character had a backstory, and everyone got upset he got hooks while they didn't. The mercenary idea is ok, but pretty much removes any possibility of an epic story .
Slyde Shadowdart 11-09-05, 01:53 AM	The mercenary idea is ok, but pretty much removes any possibility of an epic story . Not really. It's all about how you approach it. Even as mercenaries, they have direct effects on the world around them. Also, keep in mind that when I say "they're mercenaries", I don't mean that they've signed contracts and written "mercenary" on their character sheet. What I mean is that they've shown you that they work for money, and that money is their primary motivation. That's what a mercenary is, even if that's not how they see themselves. Since you know that, you can use that to move your games forward. So yes: mercenaries in that they want to be paid for doing things, not in that they've joined a mercenaries guild and go by the name "Mymnar's Mercs". ;) Also, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "epic story". If your epic story is 100% pre-programmed and there is no margin for deviance, then it might make things a bit tough. However, if your story is epic, but reacts to the characters' actions and the outcomes of those actions, and eventually culminates into the Grand Finale, then you have a successful epic tale. Even mercenaries are People Too^tm. After a while, they'll develop relationships, habits, etc. They may nominally be mercenaries, but that's just the surface layer. Your job is to take this group of "mercenaries" and make them care. Careful use of NPCs, BBEGs, minions, etc make this happen. I guess I'm doing a poor job explaining. I knew it wouldn't come across right. :(
UmbraLux 11-09-05, 09:00 AM	Ok Ill give you an example of my problem: The players are returning from the forest after some hunting and are walking through the wheat fields outside of town. They see a large mound with a trail of blood leading into it. The players continue to town and tell someone about it. The end. The end? Possibly for the party but remember the world goes on around them. A few days later they should hear a bard singing an epic song about the brave group who entered the mysterious mound, rescued the farmers daughter, and found treasure! Lots of treasure! After all, even if the treasure actually found was fairly minor, bards notoriously exagerate or take 'artistic license' to make the story more interesting. If you can make them feel like they missed out (in character), they may not pass up the next clue. You imply that the group you're DMing for isn't very interested in roleplaying, if so you may want to consider a simple dungeon crawl to start with. See if you can work a bit of roleplaying in and gradually get them to consider more than combat and treasure. Do note, I said gradually. Depending on the group it could take a month, a year, or never happen.
KJW 11-09-05, 09:47 AM	I get what Slyde is saying, if they want money then use that to give them adventure hooks, and even mercenaries can have some pretty epic adventures (take Firefly/Serenity as a TV Land example). It just takes the DM approaching things from a different mindset. Also while it may seem like money is the only thing they care about, if you slowly build up your setting, help them establish ties to NPCs, and so forth then you will find yourself working with a broader tapestry of dynamics. On a related note, usually my adventures flow together pretty seamlessly, because my PCs do have backgrounds and motivations. Since your PCs are refusing to do this they are making your job harder, but what I would do is make up a background for your PCs. Take how they have been playing their characters and how they are drawn up to craft a few background ideas you can toss at them. Sometimes PCs just don't know how to draw up backgrounds or think they are cheesy, if you toss out a few cool ideas and link them to the campaign you are showing them how to do it. One final idea, but this is only good if you can handle impromptu. I sometimes will provide a list of employment opportunities, 3-7 depending upon my mood. Each involves different work, employers, and pay. Your PCs will decide which they want to do, and you run with that adventure hook. It gives the PCs complete freedom to select their work, but it does burden the DM because you should run it more impromptu as it is too much work to design each adventure hook in its entirety. After awhile you will be able to guess pretty accurately which hook they will take, because PCs are usually pretty consistent in their decisions. Just some random thoughts.
Phrennzy 11-09-05, 10:16 AM	All but one PC doesn't have a backstory, and they pretty much refuse to give me one. I tried giving character specific hooks once, but only one character had a backstory, and everyone got upset he got hooks while they didn't. So tell them to write up a backstory so you have material to use. Then keep giving the hooks to the people who provide stories. You can't do all the work.
rkr1970 11-09-05, 11:02 AM	The other possibility, unpleasant but possibly unavoidable, is to just let the players tell you where they're going & what they're doing. No hooks, no one willing to hire them for anything, no work at all for brave young sell-swords. If they can't follow any of the apparently numerous hooks you've thrown out, and they have no set plan on what to do next, then they sit in a tavern drinking away their latest bounty. You gave them roads for adventure, they chose not to persue them. After a while, the players will ask what the next adventure is. You look them dead in the eye and tell them that the only jobs in town are being serviced by "alternate vendors" (in other words, cheaper labor has undercut the greedy nature of the party, leaving them no work for quite some time). It's mean, and more than a bit like a slap in the face, but it may just cause the players to stop ignoring the hooks you've left out for them. If that's too hard for you, have an NPC hire the group to get some piece oftreasure back for them. The NPC states, in an off-hand manner, that he needs all of the treasure stolen by these monsters. The party will take the low paying job in the hopes of better rewards from their foes. The twist here is that if the party doesn't turn over everything they found to their employer, as originally agreed, they don't get paid, and a warrant for their arrest may be issued. Both of these are just heavy-handed methods of getting you players to get with the program. I certainly hope none of them are Lawful or Good, though. It sounds like there may be alignment problems if they are.
Paradisio 11-09-05, 01:02 PM	Most of them are neutral or good, and I think the monk is both IIRC. ;/
Blue_Dilemma 11-09-05, 02:18 PM	All but one PC doesn't have a backstory, and they pretty much refuse to give me one. I tried giving character specific hooks once, but only one character had a backstory, and everyone got upset he got hooks while they didn't. That's just silly. They can't complain about it if they're the ones who are unwilling to give you a backstory. I absolutely require a player to give me something to work with. If they don't, I'll make up things for them and usually they won't be happy about it. Luckily I've only had to do it once. My player was a big bad fighter type with absolutely no history and no flavor. After completing their quest the players were relaxing in the pub when I had the character's wife show up to catch him flirting with a barmaid. He wrote a history after that but decided to keep the angry wife and play a complete cad.
DragonDeadite 11-09-05, 03:22 PM	Going Epic with a Merc group is actualy fairly easy. I'm doing it right now. The team just got hired to go and investigate a castle for a magic item, big pay day if they find it, 750,000 GP, they're level 8. Of course, they WON'T get the item, but that's enough for a goal that they were all salivating over themselves when they accepted the mission and missed the part where they got Quested because of it. (I'm mean! :cool: ) So after they go through this ancient castle looking for it, the item is going to be stolen and they'll end up having to go looking for the item... which is a part of something bigger, but I don't want to go into that because I know for a fact at least one of reads these boards. :Glares at Mal:
simon_tage 11-09-05, 04:12 PM	If my players had come along and seen the hook, realized it was a hook and left it for someone else to deal with after I am sure several attempts to cajoule them into doing it I would take that as an indication that the proposed adventure didn't suit them and head into the living room for a Halo slaughter fest. Yes, the DM needs to try and attract the players. I once had a player ask "why would I go with the group to fight this guy?" Aside from being with the party for 11 levels of play and all the adventures it takes to get there I said "because he needs to be stopped." The player said their character probably wouldn't care. My response was "then don't go. I am not going to make up a reason for you to go, if your character can't see the need to fight or even to simply help out her comrades then rp it out with the other players." The other PCs did convince the character to go with them but I can only do so much. There is no way I was going to be like "because he has a magic staff that you would love." The players HAVE to work with you sometimes. If they won't give you backgrounds to work with then they really can't complain when the adventures are "too generic" or whatever to suit them. If I had a party that would only work for pay then the in adventure rewards would be lessened to reflect that.