Advice About In-Party NPC's... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice About In-Party NPC's... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dial_Up_Dragon
07-04-07, 02:20 AM OK. I live in an area that looks quite a bit like the setting of a D&D campaign, which is nice for all the scenery, but leaves me with few people interested in participating in a game of D&D.

I'm requesting advice, experience, and/or ideas for using NPC's in the party. I currently have two dedicated players that prefer to play the martial meatshield classes. Any and all advice is very welcome. Thanks in advance.
Mr_Crepsley
07-04-07, 11:26 AM You have to be rather careful when using NPC's in the party. You must make sure that they do not steal the spotlight from the players, and you cannot get too attached to them. I would avoid using them unless absolutely necessary.
Dial_Up_Dragon
07-04-07, 12:09 PM Thanks, Mr_Crepsley. That's exactly what I'm worried about, as well. They both are playing fighters in our upcoming games. If I throw NPC's into the group, I'll want to use something that compliments them & that would mean adding a spellcaster, most likely. Tough not to upstage the meatshields when their (in this case) hammer/sword swinging antics are just not as flashy as a fireball. I'm not really in the club that says fighters are that much less effective at higher levels - they just need options in the encounters and character builds - but it's still tough to avoid upstaging a character with such mundane means when your options are less-mundane. And, if I don't, they're without healing, serious magical mortar-power, and the entire rogue skill-set. :eek:

Haha!! Maybe if I upstage them enough, they'll try playing a spellcaster for once! Just kidding.

One thought I've had is to make the NPC's at a lower level or of a defensive/support mentality - say a gnome bard that scrambles to stay alive in a fight (but is really useful outside combat), a passivist cleric (with the two fighters?), or an abjurer that excluded evocation and necromancy. Would either of these options help the upstaging?
1red13
07-04-07, 12:17 PM It really itsn't that big of a deal really. You just have to not get too attached to your npc's, seeing them as pet characters. As long as they are support characters to the pc's who are the central characters they should be fine. Not to say they shouldn't have depth to them, a dm just has to guard against showcasing them too much and taking away from the pc's.
kelvinaw273
07-04-07, 12:17 PM I would suggest, once you get used to the system, that they try their hands at Gestalt characters (Unearthed Arcana). This means you can 'blend' two classes taking the best features of both (where at a level both classes have a feature that is the same, you take the best [ie use the best hit dice, best BAB of the two], and where they have unique features you get both [fighter bonus feats + spellcasting for example]).

This lets them cover more bases and have more workable characters.
Legendarius
07-04-07, 12:39 PM As someone who's frequently had to run games with less than the ideal 4-6 players each running a single character my advice would be (and this repeats some things already mentioned):

1. If the players are interested, have them each run two characters. Their fighter and a backup. Have the two backups be different, one a cleric and one a wizard for example. The only real danger here in my experience is if the players basically treat the two characters like clones of each other. And how bad that is depends on your game style. Not so big a deal in hack and slash games. Your mileage will vary.

2. Have the PCs hire help to go with them. This can ad a roleplay element to it in the hiring. It helps get rid of PC resources. And you as the DM won't feel any remorse if the poor hirelings die. Naturally, as with any NPC you can work them into the story as you see fit. Plus, over time they will either get killed or the PCs will leave for distant shores and the hirelings will stay behind. The PCs will have to find new help.

3. DM run PCs. I've done this too and it isn't too big a deal. The key here is as was stated not to make your PC shine over the players' characters. Usually these almost become the backup characters of option #1. The difference is really in ownership. The DM has the final say what happens to them. Because the DM knows the story, it isn't really fair to have that DM run spellcaster cast the perfect spell to beat the monster's defenses unless it's a total common sense thing. You basically have to pull your punches a bit to avoid outshining the PCs. Or make the DM PCs a level or two lower. As with the hirelings, it is good to have these characters move on after an adventure or two to persue their own agendas. Otherwise, if a PC dies or a player finds this character cooler than their own, just let the player take it over.

4. Alter the adventure to accomodate your non-standard party. Less traps and locked doors if they don't have a rogue. Less undead if they don't have a cleric. And so on. This might limit a few of your options and could lead to some repetitive adventures if you aren't careful but it can make it so the party doesn't need all the standard options. Add in some healing potions to reduce the need for the cleric and a few wondrous items to give the fighters some other options. Scale back the encounters a bit or give the fighters max hit points per die. Experiment to see what works.

L
Strange Guy
07-04-07, 12:53 PM did it once was with a 2 w ranger and a barbarian. i created a low level npcs that was a female cousin of a pc lvl 2 cleric with 8 str --> no armor high con to increase hp high dex to balance lack of armor. they bought her wands of clw and protected her during fights. Made her very shy and beautiful so it provided nice rpg opport when drunks in tavern were trying to buy her booze and hit on her. lol
skeeter_dan
07-04-07, 01:20 PM If you're going to have some in-party NPCs and they're going to be spellcasters, have them be buffers rather than blasters, so that they support rather than overshadow the PCs. Simple enough.
Forfeit
07-04-07, 01:24 PM I dont actually know a lot about it, but you could get an adept NPC who has some minor healing properties. That is what they would need if they are playing as two fighters.
Dial_Up_Dragon
07-05-07, 02:31 AM Thanks, everyone, for responding.

I ran it by my players & they don't want to run two characters or one gesalt. Don't blame them, it can be a pain, plus, like they said, it'd detract from the enjoyment of playing the one character. So, I'm going to run a couple of NPC's with the characters. Probably a support caster, a rogue, and/or a bard (no fun letting a wizard or sorcerer blast half the enemy force to kibble before the PC's get to sink their fangs in). Though, I may attempt to tailor the adventure towards only having two players instead; we enjoy playing a semi-storied kick-in-the-door style game, so I'll just have to be careful not to throw too much at them.

Thanks, again!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dial_Up_Dragon 07-04-07, 02:20 AM	OK. I live in an area that looks quite a bit like the setting of a D&D campaign, which is nice for all the scenery, but leaves me with few people interested in participating in a game of D&D. I'm requesting advice, experience, and/or ideas for using NPC's in the party. I currently have two dedicated players that prefer to play the martial meatshield classes. Any and all advice is very welcome. Thanks in advance.
Mr_Crepsley 07-04-07, 11:26 AM	You have to be rather careful when using NPC's in the party. You must make sure that they do not steal the spotlight from the players, and you cannot get too attached to them. I would avoid using them unless absolutely necessary.
Dial_Up_Dragon 07-04-07, 12:09 PM	Thanks, Mr_Crepsley. That's exactly what I'm worried about, as well. They both are playing fighters in our upcoming games. If I throw NPC's into the group, I'll want to use something that compliments them & that would mean adding a spellcaster, most likely. Tough not to upstage the meatshields when their (in this case) hammer/sword swinging antics are just not as flashy as a fireball. I'm not really in the club that says fighters are that much less effective at higher levels - they just need options in the encounters and character builds - but it's still tough to avoid upstaging a character with such mundane means when your options are less-mundane. And, if I don't, they're without healing, serious magical mortar-power, and the entire rogue skill-set. :eek: Haha!! Maybe if I upstage them enough, they'll try playing a spellcaster for once! Just kidding. One thought I've had is to make the NPC's at a lower level or of a defensive/support mentality - say a gnome bard that scrambles to stay alive in a fight (but is really useful outside combat), a passivist cleric (with the two fighters?), or an abjurer that excluded evocation and necromancy. Would either of these options help the upstaging?
1red13 07-04-07, 12:17 PM	It really itsn't that big of a deal really. You just have to not get too attached to your npc's, seeing them as pet characters. As long as they are support characters to the pc's who are the central characters they should be fine. Not to say they shouldn't have depth to them, a dm just has to guard against showcasing them too much and taking away from the pc's.
kelvinaw273 07-04-07, 12:17 PM	I would suggest, once you get used to the system, that they try their hands at Gestalt characters (Unearthed Arcana). This means you can 'blend' two classes taking the best features of both (where at a level both classes have a feature that is the same, you take the best [ie use the best hit dice, best BAB of the two], and where they have unique features you get both [fighter bonus feats + spellcasting for example]). This lets them cover more bases and have more workable characters.
Legendarius 07-04-07, 12:39 PM	As someone who's frequently had to run games with less than the ideal 4-6 players each running a single character my advice would be (and this repeats some things already mentioned): 1. If the players are interested, have them each run two characters. Their fighter and a backup. Have the two backups be different, one a cleric and one a wizard for example. The only real danger here in my experience is if the players basically treat the two characters like clones of each other. And how bad that is depends on your game style. Not so big a deal in hack and slash games. Your mileage will vary. 2. Have the PCs hire help to go with them. This can ad a roleplay element to it in the hiring. It helps get rid of PC resources. And you as the DM won't feel any remorse if the poor hirelings die. Naturally, as with any NPC you can work them into the story as you see fit. Plus, over time they will either get killed or the PCs will leave for distant shores and the hirelings will stay behind. The PCs will have to find new help. 3. DM run PCs. I've done this too and it isn't too big a deal. The key here is as was stated not to make your PC shine over the players' characters. Usually these almost become the backup characters of option #1. The difference is really in ownership. The DM has the final say what happens to them. Because the DM knows the story, it isn't really fair to have that DM run spellcaster cast the perfect spell to beat the monster's defenses unless it's a total common sense thing. You basically have to pull your punches a bit to avoid outshining the PCs. Or make the DM PCs a level or two lower. As with the hirelings, it is good to have these characters move on after an adventure or two to persue their own agendas. Otherwise, if a PC dies or a player finds this character cooler than their own, just let the player take it over. 4. Alter the adventure to accomodate your non-standard party. Less traps and locked doors if they don't have a rogue. Less undead if they don't have a cleric. And so on. This might limit a few of your options and could lead to some repetitive adventures if you aren't careful but it can make it so the party doesn't need all the standard options. Add in some healing potions to reduce the need for the cleric and a few wondrous items to give the fighters some other options. Scale back the encounters a bit or give the fighters max hit points per die. Experiment to see what works. L
Strange Guy 07-04-07, 12:53 PM	did it once was with a 2 w ranger and a barbarian. i created a low level npcs that was a female cousin of a pc lvl 2 cleric with 8 str --> no armor high con to increase hp high dex to balance lack of armor. they bought her wands of clw and protected her during fights. Made her very shy and beautiful so it provided nice rpg opport when drunks in tavern were trying to buy her booze and hit on her. lol
skeeter_dan 07-04-07, 01:20 PM	If you're going to have some in-party NPCs and they're going to be spellcasters, have them be buffers rather than blasters, so that they support rather than overshadow the PCs. Simple enough.
Forfeit 07-04-07, 01:24 PM	I dont actually know a lot about it, but you could get an adept NPC who has some minor healing properties. That is what they would need if they are playing as two fighters.
Dial_Up_Dragon 07-05-07, 02:31 AM	Thanks, everyone, for responding. I ran it by my players & they don't want to run two characters or one gesalt. Don't blame them, it can be a pain, plus, like they said, it'd detract from the enjoyment of playing the one character. So, I'm going to run a couple of NPC's with the characters. Probably a support caster, a rogue, and/or a bard (no fun letting a wizard or sorcerer blast half the enemy force to kibble before the PC's get to sink their fangs in). Though, I may attempt to tailor the adventure towards only having two players instead; we enjoy playing a semi-storied kick-in-the-door style game, so I'll just have to be careful not to throw too much at them. Thanks, again!