Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CyperionTheShadeBlade 12-26-07, 05:55 AM	I'm running a campaign for two PC's, a duelist and a Order of the Bow Initiate, both on lvl 10. I've prepared the campaign pretty far ahead, and i'm planning on using a half-fiend sorcerer as the BBEG (he is currently way beyond them, lvl 20 i think). The only problems are a) introducing him to the PC's, and b) making them hate his guts. Any advice would be very appreciated!
DastardlyDan 12-26-07, 11:44 AM	First off, they need to encounter him and not be able to get him. Escape plans, escape plans, escape plans! Have them fight a bunch of minions of his, make them really a pain in the PC's asses. Also, how involved are the players in the campaign? Do they travel around a lot, or do they have a base of operations? If they have a stronghold of some kind or a home town, then the BBEG might a) capture said place, taking it away from the PCs or b) destroy it, loot it, deface it. How involved did you and the PCs get in their personal backrounds? If you have information about familial ties, favorite patrons or instructors, etc., then the BBEG may be implicated in capturing or killing someone along those lines. If he's a level 20 half-fiend sorceror, then he has a lot of magical and mundane resources to call upon. You could have all these things I mentioned happen, but none of them by the BBEG himself...just his agents. And the encounters with the agents would leave clues leading to the BBEG. Your players won't meet him until the final confrontation, but they would already know a lot about him and have plenty of reason to hate him!
Blacksworddragon 12-26-07, 12:05 PM	Encounters where the BBEG does things that go against the PC's sensablities. If they are big on saving towns and damsles in distress, have him raze the town and banish the princesses soul to the abyss. Make his actions the polar opposite of wht they stand for.
CyperionTheShadeBlade 12-26-07, 12:20 PM	The PC's travel around alot (as in, the only base of operation they've got, is an old friends house in the capital). And yeah, the BBEG is in no way small on resources, he's got mercenarie armies, two dragons, a truckload of demons, a huge orc horde, undead in spades, several assassins guilds, several artifacts, a huge number of magical items from a lost empire, the backing of a demon prince, money in the millions, and if he needs something, he's got the connections to get it. My PC's are both NG, and neither of them stands particularly much for any special causes. In the past, the Duelist has grown a grudge against an Annis hag that beat him in a fight, but not enough, as i'm looking for the real all consuming hate here. The kind that would make them hunt him to the end of the world, just to get to kill him themselves! He could go after friends and family of the PC's, but so far he doesn't even know of them, as they have only encountered one of his chief henchmen. It'll properly be another few month before they learn of him, or he learns of them.
DastardlyDan 12-26-07, 12:34 PM	BBEG doesn't need to know he's capturing or killing family of the PCs. If the PC's hometown is in the path of his undead army, or his merc army raids the town randomly for slaves, then the PC's family could get invovled that way. Once the PCs take steps to rescue or avenge said family, and they start putting dents in BBEG's agenda, they gain his attention. THEN he can start targetting them specifically.
Urithair 12-26-07, 02:09 PM	Don't make the PC's hate the BBEG, make the PLAYERS hate the BBEG. That is best done by having him take their stuff. They HATE that! Be sure to spread a lot of fluff around, evil actions, yadda yadda yadda. But have him take their stuff, especially if they spent a lot of time getting it. Have him laugh at them and tell them that he is just ******* them off because they are meaningless worms who have the audacity to think that they could ever actually take him on. He should be very smug in telling them that he won't kill them because he wants to savor their frustration when they fruitlessly try to stop him.
RobbyPants 12-26-07, 02:48 PM	Don't make the PC's hate the BBEG, make the PLAYERS hate the BBEG. That is best done by having him take their stuff. They HATE that! Be sure to spread a lot of fluff around, evil actions, yadda yadda yadda. But have him take their stuff, especially if they spent a lot of time getting it. Have him laugh at them and tell them that he is just ******* them off because they are meaningless worms who have the audacity to think that they could ever actually take him on. He should be very smug in telling them that he won't kill them because he wants to savor their frustration when they fruitlessly try to stop him. There's a fine line between getting the PCs to hate the BBEG, the players hating the BBEG, and the players hating the DM. If you have the BBEG take the stuff they've worked to get, you're well on your way to getting the players hating you. The game is about having fun. This is one of those hot buttons that can really annoy players. I'd suggest against it. A level 20 half-fiend character is an ELC 24 character. He's worlds above the PCs at this point, and he'd probably wipe the floor with them. If they do get into a fight, suddenly you're left with the hard task of coming up with a convinceable reason why he didn't kill them in one round. I think DastardlyDan is on the right track with escape plans and minions. Have the PCs deal with some powerful minons for a while (who probably have their own minions). As they learn to hate them, and they learn they're working for the BBEG, they'll hate him by extention.
Loftower 12-26-07, 04:08 PM	Deceit begets hatred. #1 Have the BBEG send the PCs on an adventure, as if he was a good guy. In the end the PCs find out that they have done something horrible, probably with consequences (like, they become outlaws until they can clear themselves). If they know that the BBEG set them up to take the fall, they’ll hate him. #2 He sells them the “demon-slaying” arrow; they pop the demon with it only to discover it doesn’t slay the demon and they need to run before it kills them. Later they find that it actually _bound_ the demon to the BBEG. #3 He takes credit for something that they’ve done. Taking stuff inspires hate. If the BBEG takes or destroys stuff that they _can_ replace, they are less likely to hate you for it. Maybe his orcs eat their horses. You’ll have to match the details to your game, but I think you get the picture. The BBEG could confront them in a setting where the PCs mustn’t react with violence. I’m thinking in a law-and-order town or something. He just has the opportunity to cheese them off. They want to attack him, but they know that the law will come in on his side if they do. “It’s the little things.” The BBEG doesn’t have to kill or corrupt everyone that they’ve ever met. You will probably find that they get more upset about him seducing their favorite barmaid than burning down a town. Drink their beers. Stain their doublets. Puke in their saddlebags (bag of holding, whatever). Make them the brunt of a public joke. “Hello dear, I’m wanted to send you a note and let you know that your sister finally got a job. She’s working for a nice man named BBEG or something. She said it has something to do with dancing or entertaining – you know I can never remember these things! Anyway, I hope you get a real job soon, too. Love, Mom”
CyperionTheShadeBlade 12-26-07, 04:42 PM	Deceit begets hatred. #1 Have the BBEG send the PCs on an adventure, as if he was a good guy. In the end the PCs find out that they have done something horrible, probably with consequences (like, they become outlaws until they can clear themselves). If they know that the BBEG set them up to take the fall, they’ll hate him. This might be useful. The duelist's brother did mention something about him being the apprentice to a powerful wizard, and i was planning on getting them involved in a war between two nations anyway. Maybe BBEG can make them start it unknowingly (until after it's to late), and then make sure everyone knows it's them. This could be really good (or bad, if you're a PC!)
Viatos 12-26-07, 05:07 PM	A good way is to give them something they'll really love having right now - a lonely NPC who happens to be a Nymph in disguise, and takes up traveling with the party; a cool magic item or transport; a home base they can easily reach. Introduce the BBEG with its destruction. Don't do this arbitrarily, use dice and rules, but make it as unstoppable as you can. It's important not to do it arbitrarily, or they're just ticked at you. They need to feel like something mechanically and conceptually part of the game world has just taken away something they were enjoying. That something is your BBEG, and they will be desperate to destroy it. Don't let that feeling fade; after his introduction, his shadow should be everywhere. But more importantly, his actions should continue to mechanically effect them. Assassins, closed gates, monster appearances, whatever, but keep heat on and they won't get cold. To give them all-consuming hate, you really need to hit them where it hurts, hard, but make sure it's the BBEG and not you delivering the blow. So give them something from above, and I'm restressing making it seem like something they've earned or gained through their own skill, and tailoring it to their tastes to really attach them to it. One of my PCs always plays a high-Cha character and generally places an emphasis on his ability to lie and wriggle out of punishement for his frequent misdeeds, and on his seductive abilities. He doesn't hold what he gains (NPC lovers, treasure from theft) as important, it's his own abilities he values. So, naturally, being scarred heavily with a Vile Explosive Rune in a letter notifying him of his conviction for numerous crimes committed by the BBEG, resulting in a permanently hunted state, and the release of divination-using assassins to nullify his sneaking and wriggling abilities sent him into a feral death-rage. As he was the party leader and his RL Charisma is about 22, it was all that was needed. Another PC, another campaign, loved making cool stuff and being gnomish (adjective) and such. He always rolled Bard, or Psion if allowed (he wasn't this time). He pumped numerous Crafts and Knowledges because he wanted to build things that were awesome by themselves without magic. He acquired, per my intentions, money and materials and a Lyre of Building (oh how he loved that lyre) and began building himself a truly impressive stronghold for only medium level. Then it was sacked in an overwhelming invasion, and while he went to battle with his mechanical marvels along with the party (that was fun; I recommend every DM give their party mecha and turrets and stronghold defense scenarios at least once in their lives, and as a bonus your players will love you), the Lyre was stolen and the place was set ablaze. This wasn't arbitrary, I let them watch me make the rolls and explained the system I'd set up to govern the battle and the theft (accomplished with a massive battle-golem-machine breaking down fortress walls and releasing a small task-force of skilled raiders to get the lyre). The whole thing, to them, felt not like I'd shafted their game (although this is basically what I did; necessary evils and all that), but like they'd failed and been punished by a force in the game world. That last campaign was the best I've ever run, and I do accredit a lot of it to their absolutely fanatic determination from that point onward. They pulled out all the stops in a merciless crusade against the BBEG, to the point where I found myself scrambling to keep up with the tricks and tactics they started manifesting. It was awesome. Hate, in a game, done right, can be nothing but fun; just be careful and make sure you DO IT RIGHT for your players.
Urithair 12-26-07, 05:39 PM	I probably should have been a little more clear. PC's get quest/map, find artifact/cool stuff that is clearly high level, BBEG takes it away. BBEG engineered the whole thing from the begining, but doesn't tell the players that, they must find out the hard way. The BBEG didn't do it himself because the area they needed to loot required a good alignment to enter. I wasn't saying that you should just rob the PC's of their appropriate wealth per character level.
Manic Man 12-27-07, 01:16 AM	Have the BBEG be the biggest noble or whatever in the town, city, etc. Have the BBEG's son be found by the party doing something that they find disgusting, beating up the elderly, playing catch with a child's bread (while he/she is pleading to the gang that its for his/her sick parent), or more vile things. After they whack them, have the town watch show up and arrest the party. The watch captain (LN) apologizes having to arrest them but its the law unfortunately. Drop them in jail and have the jailors treat them nicely then have the BBEG's son come over and gloat and torture them a bit (killing the elderly/child they rescued in front of them, branding them with a hot poker in somewhere obvious, etc). Once they hate the BBEG's son (who should be more their level), you have a way to introduce the BBEG without actually TPKing the party
kelcimer 12-27-07, 09:49 AM	BBEG is now laying claim to friends place and booted him out. That should be a good intro.
RobbyPants 12-27-07, 10:09 AM	I probably should have been a little more clear. PC's get quest/map, find artifact/cool stuff that is clearly high level, BBEG takes it away. BBEG engineered the whole thing from the begining, but doesn't tell the players that, they must find out the hard way. The BBEG didn't do it himself because the area they needed to loot required a good alignment to enter. I wasn't saying that you should just rob the PC's of their appropriate wealth per character level. That's definitely better. ;)
I_roll_ones 12-27-07, 01:52 PM	Maybe they unknowingly enter a town controlled by his puppet ruler. So there is a tariff to enter, which is higher if the person is carrying weapons. Inside, they can only stay in certain places, and must be aware of strict laws or pay more fines. Can't you clone people? Maybe a clone of one of them is running around creating mischief and mayhem. Have the BBEG send them out on a quest that gets them captured. Oh dear. Turn one of them into a werewolf, and requires the other player to control him or her so they don't go on a rampage. Other curses could work, but why is the BBEG targeting them specifically? Is he an outcast from their clan, or a traditional enemy of their family? Does he want revenge?
ccerose 12-27-07, 05:50 PM	Make the BBEG a bad ass. Make him charismatic and eloquent. Make him arrogant. Make him dastardly. Give him some decent combat skills, but make even more difficult to hit. Combat Expertise, high Dex, class abilities or feats that allow you to stack other stat bonuses to AC, potions that boost AC. You'll also want buffs that boost saves so they don't get taken down by color spray, hold person or similar ilk. During combat, role play the heck out of the BBEG. Have him taunt the PCs. Have him call them out by name. Insult their misses. "Surely I thought at least you would get in a hit." There's nothing more infuriating to players when their PCs simply can't hit their target. Sure, some hits will go through, maybe even a critical. Just make sure your BBEG has an out. Have minions come in to distract and overwhelm. Have a secret exit for him to slip though. Give him a single use magic item that allows him to use dimension door as an immediate action. Another thing the will create ire for your players is to have a city official (corrupt of course who is secretly a minion of the BBEG) come on the scene and make the arrest, stealing the sweet victory from the players. I'd go as far as having the BBEG smile and wink at the PCs as he is being led away. The official could then become a nice mid boss leading up to the final showdown with the BBEG.
CyperionTheShadeBlade 12-28-07, 03:13 AM	Make the BBEG a bad ass. Make him charismatic and eloquent. Make him arrogant. Make him dastardly. Give him some decent combat skills, but make even more difficult to hit. Combat Expertise, high Dex, class abilities or feats that allow you to stack other stat bonuses to AC, potions that boost AC. You'll also want buffs that boost saves so they don't get taken down by color spray, hold person or similar ilk. During combat, role play the heck out of the BBEG. Have him taunt the PCs. Have him call them out by name. Insult their misses. "Surely I thought at least you would get in a hit." There's nothing more infuriating to players when their PCs simply can't hit their target. Sure, some hits will go through, maybe even a critical. Just make sure your BBEG has an out. Have minions come in to distract and overwhelm. Have a secret exit for him to slip though. Give him a single use magic item that allows him to use dimension door as an immediate action. This would properly work (knowing my players, it would doubtlessly work!), the only problem being coming up with an excuse for the BBEG to not simply annihilate them on the spot. Perhaps i could save this one for late in the campaign, when they are able to go a few rounds with BBEG.
Eater_Of_Souls 12-28-07, 03:19 AM	Well as a general rule keep your BBEG as a puppet master with "unbreakable henchmen" and the like. Also never let your BBEG in the same room with your players if you want him to be alive after the encounter.
albinomonkeyking 12-28-07, 04:31 PM	Hmm, what works best for me is really simple. Take your BBEG and try to make him as cool as you can possibly think of. Try and make him cooler than the PCs. Make him do really cinematic things and be really strong and that should be enough to at least be jealous, and then hate him.
Anathema 12-28-07, 05:34 PM	If you want to make your PC's hate a character, you first have to identify what it is your players like, and then use the character to exploit it negatively. Giving examples of things to do would only work if they work on your players level; if they are roleplayers at heart, then the 'simple' act of doing evil deeds would be enough to get them. Otherwise, you have to do a bit of exploiting. Listen to your players talk about their characters .. are they playing a class that they always wanted to play? Do they fill a role that is a favorite of theirs? Do they have grand goals for eventual multiclassing? Use the BBEG to snub those in some way and you will find that the hate will snowball. While examples of what could work may or may not be directly helpful, let me give you two examples of what has worked for me in the past .. be prepared for a read. In one game I had a primary antagonist; and I call him this instead of a BBEG because he was not intended to be an 'end boss' encounter, instead just a character with his own evil agendas that frequently crossed paths with the players .. but I digress. I had a primary antagonist who did all of these awful evil things; slaughtering a monastery full of monks who did not fight back, killing the mentor of one of the PC's, sending NPC friends of the party to alternate planes, and even murdering a child in cold blood before the party could react. He was definately a villain I prided myself on, but he didn't really evoke those hatred emotions in my players .. until one certain encounter. One of my players was dead set on having a prehensile tail, and as a rogue/invisible blade, he was particularly annoying when he would get an extra sneak attack with the tail. He even said at one point before the game that he would choose a different character if I ruled that he couldn't have a prehensile tail .. it was important to him. So, this villain had him pinned down as a hostage for an exchange with an item he wanted, and even after getting what he wanted, he sliced the tail off anyway and bamf'd out. Despite regeneration being readily available (from the party cleric), there was still that resentment from this one player toward the character from then on. The rest of the party was not even half as on-edge as this guy was. Alternatively, an act that happened over a single game session from a villain that was going to be mostly throw-away earned the deep ire from a different player of mine. He always wanted to belong to one of the specific factions in the old Planescape setting, and he was able to do so in my game. While visiting the plane that the leader of this faction was staying on, someone assassinated her, and wound up framing the PC's for it. They didn't know who it was, so I had him show up and appear to help the PC's but in reality turned them in to the local police. He then escaped before the climax and was never brought to justice. You should have seen the look on my player's face when he showed back up with a modest proposal .. pure disgust at even having to share the same virtual room with the guy. So, my ultimate point is that you can try and try to show the players how evil someone is .. but in general they won't care unless the villain somehow takes advantage of the things the players want and like; unless, like I said, your players are heavy on the roleplaying.
toucanbuzz 12-28-07, 05:51 PM	It's even worse if your BBEG isn't a badass. One of my favorites came from a time the 15th level fighter built a griffon corps that he planned on hiring out to the local government. He didn't supervise his recruits, and after some training "accidents", the crew was loyal to a 3rd level LE nobody who had an extreme amount of savvy and cunning. The crew would orchestrate raids in remote areas and then get hired to investigate them and hunt down bandits. When the PCs finally discovered they had been duped (losing a LOT of money in the investment not to mention their reputations), they were even more upset to find a lack of satisfaction in smacking around a guy who had less health than their horse. To add insult to injury, the fighter tossed the guy in a corner (near a 2nd story window) while thinking what to do with him. The 3rd level nobody jumped out the window, ran to his griffon, and took off. I did avoid injury that day. The fighter swore off hirelings.
robertliguori 12-29-07, 12:15 PM	Viatos speaks truth: ensure that the BBEG plays by the rules of the universe. He shouldn't play by the rules of honor, or sportsmanship, or barest-hint-of-redeeming-decency, but if he cheats (or rather, if the universe cheats in his favor) then you displace the power of the BBEG (and the subesquent hatred) onto the universe which is coddling him.
Ace_of_time 12-29-07, 05:13 PM	Have the boss hire them to do something like recover an item from somewhere. Then in the end (after a long dungeon) he/she turns up and takes the item while they are in the battle with the dungeon's boss and thenleaves them to die. I would even have him yell that fact right before he teleports away. If that don't do it nothing will.
Shiftkitty 12-29-07, 10:43 PM	How well do you know your players? When I want to motivate a player's character, I usually motivate the player. One of my players is big on the issue of child abuse. Nothing fires him up more. I was trying to get him to be serious in the encounters with the BBEG, so to finally get him going, I had the BBEG appear with an 8 year old boy on a chain. As the BBEG made his escape, I had him yank the child along violently. He became obssessed with rescuing the boy, and to reward his new-found earnestness, I let him rescue the boy and return him to his impoverished but eternally grateful parents, who thanked him the only way they could, which was with a meager meal made of what little they had. (He then 'adopted' the family and helped them to more prosperous lives. Sigh! I love happily ever afters!;) I know, I know. Total chick thing...)
Ace_of_time 12-30-07, 12:39 AM	How well do you know your players? When I want to motivate a player's character, I usually motivate the player. One of my players is big on the issue of child abuse. Nothing fires him up more. I was trying to get him to be serious in the encounters with the BBEG, so to finally get him going, I had the BBEG appear with an 8 year old boy on a chain. As the BBEG made his escape, I had him yank the child along violently. He became obssessed with rescuing the boy, and to reward his new-found earnestness, I let him rescue the boy and return him to his impoverished but eternally grateful parents, who thanked him the only way they could, which was with a meager meal made of what little they had. (He then 'adopted' the family and helped them to more prosperous lives. Sigh! I love happily ever afters!;) I know, I know. Total chick thing...) And he was really just a boy. I would of had TONS of fun with that. Had him chained up because it was somekind of monster and then they freed him and BAM.:evillaugh
xpochian 12-30-07, 04:53 AM	have him break/take their stuff. i've had more villains unintentionally become serious plot-contenders by having them accidentally do the above.
CaptainPicard 12-30-07, 12:32 PM	The two most reviled (in a good way) BBEGs I've ever had were, again, a 20th level Half-Fiend Sorcerer (although he also had Eldritch Knight) and a guy in a BESM superhero game called Fire Ant. Both of them specialized in using their abilities to mock the PCs from afar, do blatantly disruptive things right in front of the PCs, and always have upwards of ten escape plans. Since BESM clearly isn't relevant here, the Sorcerer specialized in illusions and powerful defensive magic such as Ironguard (SC), Wings of Cover (RoD), and various spells that avoid detection. The PCs hated him not just because he was annoying and impossible to kill, but he freely walked around with them, lied about everything, whether it helps him or not, and insists that he's their ally, and they're just being "pouty" if they attack him. Now, they are angry because they never know when he's scrying on them. Similarly speaking, the BESM guy could hear through the ground at a range of several kilometers, and thus would always know their plans before they enacted them, would screw them up and humiliate them in front of the whole city, and then laugh at them from his network of underground tunnels. Finally, he infested one of the older villains the PCs were trying to reform with a swarm of ants and forced her to do his evil bidding, ruining her hope of redemption in the eyes of anyone else. Basically, a really hated villain is one with access to information the PCs don't want them to have (scrying is a big help in D&D, as is an extensive network of informants. You'd be surprised how many PCs will discuss sensitive information in the middle of the local tavern), and the means through which to exploit this information. A natural enjoyment of being a jackass to other people for kicks is an asset.
Sci_fi_Messiah 12-30-07, 01:03 PM	Don't make the PC's hate the BBEG, make the PLAYERS hate the BBEG. That is best done by having him take their stuff. They HATE that! Be sure to spread a lot of fluff around, evil actions, yadda yadda yadda. But have him take their stuff, especially if they spent a lot of time getting it. Have him laugh at them and tell them that he is just ******* them off because they are meaningless worms who have the audacity to think that they could ever actually take him on. He should be very smug in telling them that he won't kill them because he wants to savor their frustration when they fruitlessly try to stop him. Or you could have him kill the flower girl.;)
Shiftkitty 12-30-07, 07:15 PM	And he was really just a boy. I would of had TONS of fun with that. Had him chained up because it was somekind of monster and then they freed him and BAM.:evillaugh You are soooooooooo evil!:D
Khallhadras 12-30-07, 08:43 PM	When the player knows the BBEG is forcing pivotal choices on him it causes major abrasion, especially when the player later learns that there was an alternative that could have amended everything and caused no wrong. This method also rewards players for creative gameplay, but if possible make it a very indistinct, even arbitrary way to solve the problem without any ill caused. For example: Pc is in an orphanage and smoke starts to seep from the roof timbers, soon followed by licking flames. One of the beams is already weakening from the abnormal blaze, this very beam's shadow obscuring a table of orphans. To the right entrance of the long hall a small group of fully enamoured soldiers bashes the door down, and slaughters one of the female nun/overmasters in his way. 15 ft. away from the now prostrate nun is her sister (in the religious meaning, all humankind is akin, etc.), a venerable and decrepit kind old women, with a meek and wrinkled face, mouse eyes, and a frail composure about herself. She makes eye contact with the Pc and starts walking over to the Pc, painfully slow and at no par with the ravaging soldiers long strides. The Pc Could a) Save the orphans, watch the old women get flanked by spears and perforated repeatedly, even when bleeding on the ground and clearly dead. b) Save the old women, initiate combat with the soldiers, and let the orphans die. c) Route the rest of the children and attempt to save their lives at the very least. With a larger group I am sure there can be found some more enticing threats and rewards. Presently I have no reward for a scenario like this, nor do I have a resolution to save everyone, unless of course there was more than one player (more than likely). As a presentation this is no where near complete, but as you can see if you scale it up to more possibilities, more threats, and a couple obscure rewards for resourceful gameplay, you now have a viable means to cause potential friction, anger, a feeling of achieving something, and abhor or even detestment at the deeds done. In other instances all of these at once are possible, you just have to be creative.