Advice for 2 player campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice for 2 player campaign [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zavia
07-18-07, 10:27 AM Newbie dm here, im creating a 2 player d&d 3.5 game that is to be done via online. Our setting is an urban setting with them starting at lv3.

Im just wondering, is there anything i should know or advice u guys can give about having such a small party?

Also about CR... since its 2 of em.... do i place 1/2 the normal cr level i would normally place?

btw, those 2 are generally fun and semi insane people.

Edit:
Since im already posting, any of you have nice maps and/or ideas, npc, locations and stuff for urban use? i have cityscape aready if you are wondering. and i know about the dnd map a week thingy.
Gargs454
07-18-07, 12:01 PM Well there are lots of ways that you can handle a 2 player campaign, it just depends on the nature of your gaming group and what everyone prefers.

The obvious drawback is that with only 2 PC's it will be hard to cover all of the traditional areas that are normally covered by your standard party of 4. So, you can either a) Play Gestalt (which also largely covers your CR problem), b) Let the players play two characters, c) have NPC's available who are able to travel with the party for a time d), provide access to things like scrolls and potions. (I'm sure there are more too, but you get the idea).

a) can be fun, but also a bit of a headache if you are not careful
b) alleviates the coverage issue and avoids the problems that can arise with Gestalt, but you run the risk of 2 of the PC's being little more than background figures as your players concentrate their RP'ing to their "primary" character
c) can be dangerous if you keep the same NPCs with the party as you run the risk of essentially creating the "DMPC" which if you are not careful can quickly anger your players if they believe that you are favoring this character
d) will work well in a city setting since it would make sense that you would have a temple as well a mage's guild, etc. The PC's can purchase scrolls and potions to help cover their weaknesses. Of course, if they are already playing a priest and a mage, then this might not be as helpful.

Currently, I am running a campaign with only two players and we are using option "b" above and it has worked out pretty well. My players are good at roleplaying both characters and it makes it easier for me to design adventures/encounters since I have a standard sized party.

As for the CR thing, a typical 3rd level party of 4 would have a CR of 7 (I believe since you add 2 to the CR for every time you double the number of creatures) for a party of 2, the CR would be 5. So it's not quite cut in half.

My suggestion would be that until you get the hang of it, set up your encounters in such a way that reinforcements (for either the PCs or baddies) can arrive in short order if a fight goes too badly for one side. Again this is pretty easy to do in a city setting.
Ace_of_Night
07-18-07, 12:01 PM Just to reply on the CR thing, I suppose it's -2 of the normal, since the group is half as big (normally if you have twice as many enemies, the CR goes up by 2) This might only be a bit troublesome at lower levels, in which case you should just halve it.
Zavia
07-18-07, 12:11 PM Hmm, ill propose the idea to them.
They are also newbie players btw. so probably will be 2 of them going around togather. I told them to try n be... cohesive in their picks of races and classes.

one lives rogue, so im guessing its somehow gona be something along the lines of that(rogue+ranger, rogue², rogue+etc)

arnt scrolls and potions like useable only by those who can cast?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
* The user must have the spell on his or her class list.

yea, -2cr... tq.
Aurune
07-18-07, 12:11 PM As for camp. ideas since they're are only two of them i would start of with missions that are specified for these two, and such a small party, such as bounty hunter gigs. later if you feel like escalating the the storyline to something bigger you can add in a DM controlled pc, just be sure not to be biased.
Ace_of_time
07-18-07, 12:22 PM I use higher stat genaration for a high powered campaign but still use Cr's for low powered. Also you can use a DMPC or npc. DMPC can make up for missing two players but some people don't like their use. So if you don't you could add a NPC or two to make the difference.
Gargs454
07-18-07, 12:27 PM Hmm, ill propose the idea to them.
They are also newbie players btw. so probably will be 2 of them going around togather. I told them to try n be... cohesive in their picks of races and classes.

one lives rogue, so im guessing its somehow gona be something along the lines of that(rogue+ranger, rogue², rogue+etc)

arnt scrolls and potions like useable only by those who can cast?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm

yea, -2cr... tq.

A rogue should be able to use scrolls through Use Magic Device if I'm not mistaken, but at any rate, potions can be used by anyone, its just that only a caster can brew them.

Another option, if they are not comfortable with Gestalt or with playing 2 characters, is to lightly suggest that they look at some of the classes that are a little more versatile. For instance, a paladin can not only melee but also provide some extra healing. A Duskblade gets spells as well. Additionally, the rogue can later multiclass into mage and Arcane Trickster, etc. This will help cover those areas as the players progress.

Obviously though, in the end, its their character and if he just wants to go Ftr 20, then let him.

BTW, city settings are good for a small party too because they afford the party ample opportunities to retreat and rest up after a tough fight.
Zavia
07-18-07, 12:39 PM oops, my bad. forgot to take out potions there.

a dmpc is definately on my mind, but im not sure. if i do things with intricate plots... well it would be a tad akward no?

but if i do help, probably temporary npcs and the like. i have a feeling those 2 will somehow be self sufficient.

decipher spell, and use scroll, both are in use magical device. a tad hard tho.

yea, i know the advantages of urban settings vs wilderness and dungeon settings. easy to get back, and run away. for both sides :D muahahaha.

so, about freebie resources, anyone got any good links and stuff? it seems urban stuff is a tad harder 2 come by. most urban stuff is like for moden settings :S
Ace_of_time
07-18-07, 12:57 PM Someone on another thread pointed out that A rogue can go with cleric and chose the magic domain. That should help with UMD but will cost you your sneak attack. The best two that we have found is are 1 druid and one fighter, or 1 cleric and 1 wizard. With multi classing for the other things you may need.

When I use mine I make no choices for the group and follow their lead. Also use knowledge check for what the DMPC knows. I also make my pc after they do and make it for what they are missing. Most of the time that Healer class or cleric for evil group.
TwiddleStootch
07-18-07, 01:42 PM I am currently running a 2 person game.
Here is what I have done to power them up a bit so they can survive:

Gestalt. Helps a ton.

+2 Skill Points each. Helps to cover the skill bases.

Spot, Listen and Search are class skills for all classes. Mostly because neither are Rogues (grumble).

42 Point Buy. I decided to go pretty high for the Point buy, but so far it has been ok. anywhere from 32 to 42 is fine.

When figuring the Average character level fro the party, to find the right CR, I treat each character as if he were 1 level higher, as if the character had a +1 level adjustment.
and I find they can handle an extra fight or two a day, but that is due largely to a lot of healing (one is a cleric and one is a archivist).

They are currently level 4 and have only had a few near death experiences :D
KJW
07-18-07, 02:05 PM Also check the links in my signature for information on solo/duet campaigns (just one player) as most of the information them works just as well for a two player party.
Zavia
07-19-07, 02:25 AM Gestalt... hmm hmm seems better than dmpc. atleast easier for me :P any threads around that gives advice on em?

http://www.shadowdark.org/ib/The-New-One_728-4.php
Haruchai's post gives good advice. but he/she/it says:
"However, you cannot, in most cases, combine two variants of the same class."
why is that? wouldnt they just lose out on extra stuff?

im doing a 30+3d6 point buy(40.5 adv). keeping with the dnd tradition :D
is there any threads on point buying? wana see if theres other variants and stuff.

ill check the links somewhere next week. important final exam on monday. have to pause planning 2 study >.<

but ill be still checking this like once a day n stuff.

Edit:
@TwiddleStootch
Say, when u say "Character Level +1 " do u mean Level Adjustment +1?
Kaligrad
07-20-07, 12:12 AM Stay away from boss battles of party level +3 or more and you should be fine as far as combat goes. Since you're featuring a city campaign anyway, you could probably get away with lowering the amount of combat altogether and focusing on RP. Just use the ad hoc rules for awarding xp and occasionally throw in some quest experience for completing a major plot line. You don't need gestalt, you don't need DMPC's (an especially bad idea when focusing on intrigue); all you need is a pair of players who can prepare before combat with potions and buff spells, and the intelligence to choose the battleground.
wizarddog
07-20-07, 12:43 AM I started my campaign with 2 PC's for a rogues/Scoundrel campaign.

I started that 1000 xp so they could be 2nd level in any class combo. Since they were basically thieves I did heavy roleplay and a lot of skill based encounters against El 1 warrior guards to avoid. They progressively fought(challenged) bigger and meaner opponents as they went along.

Now at EL 8 and with a new player at EL 5 the group handles CR 6 challenges pretty well but the strength is in the roleplaying and many Npc's to interact with. ;)

EDIT: A few DMNPC joined them in some adventures... a Crusty old Rogue/Ranger, a sorcerer (who died-they are not immortal), and right now they are helping a trio of fallen paladins. The key with using those is not to let them overshadow the PC's. Funny thing is, they keep going back to them asking for help.
Zavia
07-20-07, 03:17 AM lol. Yea, ill have like a bunch of npcs waiting to be introduced when on a particularly hard mission.

@kali
they are excited about gestalt(arrgh, its so hard to spell!!)
so i have a feeling its here to stay. Otherwise, i tell em to suck it up like real life and compensate :D
Ace_of_time
07-25-07, 09:24 PM I wouldn't use Gestalt PC's if your players are to new. They can be confusing to newbes. Me and my wife play all the time and have no trouble with just reg classes but that's your call if you think their ready for a Gestalt PC.
DarkNick
07-25-07, 09:42 PM I think too many people worry about the 'required roles'.
Simply tailor the game to their strengths... It would be silly for a DM to create a game that absolutely required a cleric if none of the players was a cleric..savey?

As for the power level thing, you could simply half the CR as a starting point. If they are blitzing all your combats and you think they are having it too easy then crank it up a notch. Eventually you will get a good challenge...

Keep it simple. Since they are new I would ur on the easy side, let them be powerful. Have fun.
DarkLord93
07-25-07, 11:01 PM I'm a newbie,too , and um... why start out as lv. 3's? Why not 1. It's easier to handle and you have more time to get the hang of it.
TwiddleStootch
07-25-07, 11:43 PM ...
@TwiddleStootch
Say, when u say "Character Level +1 " do u mean Level Adjustment +1?

Yeah, I was just trying to not get anyone confused over LA.

Original post edited for clarity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zavia 07-18-07, 10:27 AM	Newbie dm here, im creating a 2 player d&d 3.5 game that is to be done via online. Our setting is an urban setting with them starting at lv3. Im just wondering, is there anything i should know or advice u guys can give about having such a small party? Also about CR... since its 2 of em.... do i place 1/2 the normal cr level i would normally place? btw, those 2 are generally fun and semi insane people. Edit: Since im already posting, any of you have nice maps and/or ideas, npc, locations and stuff for urban use? i have cityscape aready if you are wondering. and i know about the dnd map a week thingy.
Gargs454 07-18-07, 12:01 PM	Well there are lots of ways that you can handle a 2 player campaign, it just depends on the nature of your gaming group and what everyone prefers. The obvious drawback is that with only 2 PC's it will be hard to cover all of the traditional areas that are normally covered by your standard party of 4. So, you can either a) Play Gestalt (which also largely covers your CR problem), b) Let the players play two characters, c) have NPC's available who are able to travel with the party for a time d), provide access to things like scrolls and potions. (I'm sure there are more too, but you get the idea). a) can be fun, but also a bit of a headache if you are not careful b) alleviates the coverage issue and avoids the problems that can arise with Gestalt, but you run the risk of 2 of the PC's being little more than background figures as your players concentrate their RP'ing to their "primary" character c) can be dangerous if you keep the same NPCs with the party as you run the risk of essentially creating the "DMPC" which if you are not careful can quickly anger your players if they believe that you are favoring this character d) will work well in a city setting since it would make sense that you would have a temple as well a mage's guild, etc. The PC's can purchase scrolls and potions to help cover their weaknesses. Of course, if they are already playing a priest and a mage, then this might not be as helpful. Currently, I am running a campaign with only two players and we are using option "b" above and it has worked out pretty well. My players are good at roleplaying both characters and it makes it easier for me to design adventures/encounters since I have a standard sized party. As for the CR thing, a typical 3rd level party of 4 would have a CR of 7 (I believe since you add 2 to the CR for every time you double the number of creatures) for a party of 2, the CR would be 5. So it's not quite cut in half. My suggestion would be that until you get the hang of it, set up your encounters in such a way that reinforcements (for either the PCs or baddies) can arrive in short order if a fight goes too badly for one side. Again this is pretty easy to do in a city setting.
Ace_of_Night 07-18-07, 12:01 PM	Just to reply on the CR thing, I suppose it's -2 of the normal, since the group is half as big (normally if you have twice as many enemies, the CR goes up by 2) This might only be a bit troublesome at lower levels, in which case you should just halve it.
Zavia 07-18-07, 12:11 PM	Hmm, ill propose the idea to them. They are also newbie players btw. so probably will be 2 of them going around togather. I told them to try n be... cohesive in their picks of races and classes. one lives rogue, so im guessing its somehow gona be something along the lines of that(rogue+ranger, rogue², rogue+etc) arnt scrolls and potions like useable only by those who can cast? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) * The user must have the spell on his or her class list. yea, -2cr... tq.
Aurune 07-18-07, 12:11 PM	As for camp. ideas since they're are only two of them i would start of with missions that are specified for these two, and such a small party, such as bounty hunter gigs. later if you feel like escalating the the storyline to something bigger you can add in a DM controlled pc, just be sure not to be biased.
Ace_of_time 07-18-07, 12:22 PM	I use higher stat genaration for a high powered campaign but still use Cr's for low powered. Also you can use a DMPC or npc. DMPC can make up for missing two players but some people don't like their use. So if you don't you could add a NPC or two to make the difference.
Gargs454 07-18-07, 12:27 PM	Hmm, ill propose the idea to them. They are also newbie players btw. so probably will be 2 of them going around togather. I told them to try n be... cohesive in their picks of races and classes. one lives rogue, so im guessing its somehow gona be something along the lines of that(rogue+ranger, rogue², rogue+etc) arnt scrolls and potions like useable only by those who can cast? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm yea, -2cr... tq. A rogue should be able to use scrolls through Use Magic Device if I'm not mistaken, but at any rate, potions can be used by anyone, its just that only a caster can brew them. Another option, if they are not comfortable with Gestalt or with playing 2 characters, is to lightly suggest that they look at some of the classes that are a little more versatile. For instance, a paladin can not only melee but also provide some extra healing. A Duskblade gets spells as well. Additionally, the rogue can later multiclass into mage and Arcane Trickster, etc. This will help cover those areas as the players progress. Obviously though, in the end, its their character and if he just wants to go Ftr 20, then let him. BTW, city settings are good for a small party too because they afford the party ample opportunities to retreat and rest up after a tough fight.
Zavia 07-18-07, 12:39 PM	oops, my bad. forgot to take out potions there. a dmpc is definately on my mind, but im not sure. if i do things with intricate plots... well it would be a tad akward no? but if i do help, probably temporary npcs and the like. i have a feeling those 2 will somehow be self sufficient. decipher spell, and use scroll, both are in use magical device. a tad hard tho. yea, i know the advantages of urban settings vs wilderness and dungeon settings. easy to get back, and run away. for both sides :D muahahaha. so, about freebie resources, anyone got any good links and stuff? it seems urban stuff is a tad harder 2 come by. most urban stuff is like for moden settings :S
Ace_of_time 07-18-07, 12:57 PM	Someone on another thread pointed out that A rogue can go with cleric and chose the magic domain. That should help with UMD but will cost you your sneak attack. The best two that we have found is are 1 druid and one fighter, or 1 cleric and 1 wizard. With multi classing for the other things you may need. When I use mine I make no choices for the group and follow their lead. Also use knowledge check for what the DMPC knows. I also make my pc after they do and make it for what they are missing. Most of the time that Healer class or cleric for evil group.
TwiddleStootch 07-18-07, 01:42 PM	I am currently running a 2 person game. Here is what I have done to power them up a bit so they can survive: Gestalt. Helps a ton. +2 Skill Points each. Helps to cover the skill bases. Spot, Listen and Search are class skills for all classes. Mostly because neither are Rogues (grumble). 42 Point Buy. I decided to go pretty high for the Point buy, but so far it has been ok. anywhere from 32 to 42 is fine. When figuring the Average character level fro the party, to find the right CR, I treat each character as if he were 1 level higher, as if the character had a +1 level adjustment. and I find they can handle an extra fight or two a day, but that is due largely to a lot of healing (one is a cleric and one is a archivist). They are currently level 4 and have only had a few near death experiences :D
KJW 07-18-07, 02:05 PM	Also check the links in my signature for information on solo/duet campaigns (just one player) as most of the information them works just as well for a two player party.
Zavia 07-19-07, 02:25 AM	Gestalt... hmm hmm seems better than dmpc. atleast easier for me :P any threads around that gives advice on em? http://www.shadowdark.org/ib/The-New-One_728-4.php Haruchai's post gives good advice. but he/she/it says: "However, you cannot, in most cases, combine two variants of the same class." why is that? wouldnt they just lose out on extra stuff? im doing a 30+3d6 point buy(40.5 adv). keeping with the dnd tradition :D is there any threads on point buying? wana see if theres other variants and stuff. ill check the links somewhere next week. important final exam on monday. have to pause planning 2 study >.< but ill be still checking this like once a day n stuff. Edit: @TwiddleStootch Say, when u say "Character Level +1 " do u mean Level Adjustment +1?
Kaligrad 07-20-07, 12:12 AM	Stay away from boss battles of party level +3 or more and you should be fine as far as combat goes. Since you're featuring a city campaign anyway, you could probably get away with lowering the amount of combat altogether and focusing on RP. Just use the ad hoc rules for awarding xp and occasionally throw in some quest experience for completing a major plot line. You don't need gestalt, you don't need DMPC's (an especially bad idea when focusing on intrigue); all you need is a pair of players who can prepare before combat with potions and buff spells, and the intelligence to choose the battleground.
wizarddog 07-20-07, 12:43 AM	I started my campaign with 2 PC's for a rogues/Scoundrel campaign. I started that 1000 xp so they could be 2nd level in any class combo. Since they were basically thieves I did heavy roleplay and a lot of skill based encounters against El 1 warrior guards to avoid. They progressively fought(challenged) bigger and meaner opponents as they went along. Now at EL 8 and with a new player at EL 5 the group handles CR 6 challenges pretty well but the strength is in the roleplaying and many Npc's to interact with. ;) EDIT: A few DMNPC joined them in some adventures... a Crusty old Rogue/Ranger, a sorcerer (who died-they are not immortal), and right now they are helping a trio of fallen paladins. The key with using those is not to let them overshadow the PC's. Funny thing is, they keep going back to them asking for help.
Zavia 07-20-07, 03:17 AM	lol. Yea, ill have like a bunch of npcs waiting to be introduced when on a particularly hard mission. @kali they are excited about gestalt(arrgh, its so hard to spell!!) so i have a feeling its here to stay. Otherwise, i tell em to suck it up like real life and compensate :D
Ace_of_time 07-25-07, 09:24 PM	I wouldn't use Gestalt PC's if your players are to new. They can be confusing to newbes. Me and my wife play all the time and have no trouble with just reg classes but that's your call if you think their ready for a Gestalt PC.
DarkNick 07-25-07, 09:42 PM	I think too many people worry about the 'required roles'. Simply tailor the game to their strengths... It would be silly for a DM to create a game that absolutely required a cleric if none of the players was a cleric..savey? As for the power level thing, you could simply half the CR as a starting point. If they are blitzing all your combats and you think they are having it too easy then crank it up a notch. Eventually you will get a good challenge... Keep it simple. Since they are new I would ur on the easy side, let them be powerful. Have fun.
DarkLord93 07-25-07, 11:01 PM	I'm a newbie,too , and um... why start out as lv. 3's? Why not 1. It's easier to handle and you have more time to get the hang of it.
TwiddleStootch 07-25-07, 11:43 PM	... @TwiddleStootch Say, when u say "Character Level +1 " do u mean Level Adjustment +1? Yeah, I was just trying to not get anyone confused over LA. Original post edited for clarity.