Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kragar's Shadow 05-24-06, 02:10 PM	Sometimes it's fun running with quests ideas that your players give you. I'm working on one that I was given and trying to fill in details. I'm looking for advice because I enjoy hearing constructive and imaginative ideas that I know I wouldn't have come up with. The scenario: An old necromancer had a young pupil. Said pupil in their mad lust for power stole life essence/spell book/phylactery from the master and ran off. The end result being that the master has a fraction of his former power and wants revenge. Master finds the lair of his pupil and hires an adventuring party to finish it. My plan is to have the pupil using a write up of the 'Black Cauldron' from a Dragon issue from a few months ago. Essentially just by putting a corpse into the cauldron, they can create undead. While the actual power of the created undead may not be too great, over time and with a good supply of corpses, bad things will happen. Information on where to find this powerful artifact was one of the things stolen from the master. The problem is that if a party doesn't have a cleric, undead can be a lot harder to deal with. I'd like to give them an item that would give a character the ability to turn undead X number of times per day. I'm thinking that the item may actually be a conduit for the Master and that in the end when the party meets the Pupil, the Master will use it to teleport and defeat the Pupil in person. Many of you will say that this smacks of Deus Ex Machina, and yes I agree. But it still could be an interesting lead-up. I'm looking for advice on how to make this plausible and how to make such a "delivery" mission exciting and satisfying.
Gedrin 05-24-06, 02:22 PM	You might want to look at undead with commonly known and easy to use weaknesses. Vampires have a number of things that can be used against them by anyone.
sparticus_eleisum 05-24-06, 02:49 PM	The problem is that if a party doesn't have a cleric, undead can be a lot harder to deal with. I'd like to give them an item that would give a character the ability to turn undead X number of times per day. I'm thinking that the item may actually be a conduit for the Master and that in the end when the party meets the Pupil, the Master will use it to teleport and defeat the Pupil in person. Use the good old bludgeoning weapons; also fire could come in handy... If your PCs are not smart enough to deal with the undeads without a cleric, they deserve to die...
cambric 05-24-06, 03:34 PM	Use the good old bludgeoning weapons; also fire could come in handy... If your PCs are not smart enough to deal with the undeads without a cleric, they deserve to die... Unless the PC's are not meta-gaming and really don't know what to do. They 'should' go and find a church/cleric and get information, then go from there. As the DM, you can give them the information they need or you want them to have...maybe have the Church/cleric offer some items in return to make sure they stop the undead...or in a twist, they kill the survivor of the battle between the master and pupil. :evillaugh Cam
Zombayz1 05-24-06, 03:55 PM	Use the good old bludgeoning weapons; also fire could come in handy... If your PCs are not smart enough to deal with the undeads without a cleric, they deserve to die... Agreed. Anyone who needs a cleric for undead is ****ed. For that matter, at high levels a clerics turning is minimal.
wrecan 05-24-06, 04:14 PM	Hide From Undead potions cast at a level higher than 1st to up the DC for more powerful undead. Or, for higher level parties, Shield of Undead Controlling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#undeadControlling), which i do not think requires a cleric. It has a value of 50,160 gp with a +1 enchantment, so it's really for a high level parties.
1CentSage 05-24-06, 04:36 PM	If the cauldron produces weak undead without any ability dmg/drain abilities like zombies for example, a cleric really is convenient not needed. In fact these type of undead are more easy to defeat than many living monsters because they have normally fewer hitpoints. If they have to deal with undead with nasty special attacks, but which are not touch attacks, they will also not necessarily need a cleric. It is a similar situation as if dealing with monsters that have poison attacks for example. The only case in which a cleric would be more or less required is if there are (especially incorporeal) undead with nasty special abilities connected to touch attacks as for example shadows. These can be very dangerous even for CRs below the average party level especially if there are many of them. It usually takes much more effort and care to succeed here without a cleric. As a side remark: This is nowadays the more or less only situation were a cleric's turn ability shines since most undead published after the MM have much more HD than their CR+4, making them nearly impossible to turn.
kelvinaw273 05-24-06, 05:06 PM	As long as they have a good spread of other items, they should be OK. Wand of Cure Light Wounds (for healing and for hitting undead) Holy Weapon (+2d6 vs Evil) Undead Bane Weapon (+2 and +2d6 damage vs Undead) Also Spells and Abilities: Paladin with Smite Evil Psychic Warrior with Stygian Bane Druid with Cure spells Wizard with any of the mass destruction spells, protection from Evil Wizard (Necromancer) with Undead damaging and control spells Boosted saves will always help, and anything that defends from energy drain and evil.
lifespeed 05-25-06, 10:07 AM	We really should know the level of the party, and the kind of undead that you're intending to use. Thing is though, I have thrown zombies at a party with no cleric a couple of times, and they just fought through them. With zombies and skeletons, cleric turning really isn't needed, if you ask me. Just make sure that the (average) undead are a little weaker than the PCs, so that they can swarm about but still be beaten, and throw in the ocasional tougher monster. Should make for a pretty interesting string of fights. And The PCs could of course try to be clever and get around the monsters, and not just fight them all too. As for the master teleporting in thing, I think that could be very cool, especially if the pupil is too tough for the PCs. They could fight alongside the master, especially since no necromancer worth his salt will be without an undead retinue.
Kragar's Shadow 05-25-06, 12:54 PM	Right now the party is almost level 5. But I want to wait until maybe level 7 so I can take advantage of the ranger's favoured enemy (orcs) first. But the wizard in the party is starting to become interested in undead and necromancy after a fight with a grey dwarf evil cleric and his zombie minions. I'm thinking of giving them the quest through meeting someone with, we'll call it an Orb, that actually has the Master's essence in it. Possibly it's even controlling the bearer. If the party agrees to help they'll end up in a few fights against undead with the Orb shown to grant turning. Then the bearer will die in some battle so that another member of the party needs to pick it up. At that point the Orb won't control the party member, but merely impart advice through me handing over little notes. Somehow along the way I'd like to give them the option of finding out that they can use the Orb to imprison both the Master *and* the Pupil. Any thoughts on this, or suggestions for encounter make-up and pacing? I'm thinking skeletons then zombies then *something* sort of order. What would be appropriate for a 5th to 7th level party? Thanks
Arganis 05-25-06, 01:41 PM	I feel as though using the Orb or the Master in combat to help the party might be heavy-handed on your part. Generally speaking, it is a bad idea to use the PCs to “mop up the minions” and have the BBGG show up to do the real dirty work. What if the PCs could obtain an Imbued Holy Symbol of sorts, that when presented strongly, allowed a character to turn undead as a cleric of 1/2 their character level? As for undead, the ramp-up is pretty self-explanatory CR_ Skeleton CR_ Zombie CR_ Ghost (+2) CR_ Vampire (+2) CR1 Ghoul CR3 Ghast/Wight/Shadow/Allip CR4 Vamp Spawn CR5 Mummy/Wraith CR7 Spectre CR8 Mohrg/Bodak The key here is using templates (including the Vampire, Skeleton, Zombie, and Ghost templates) to make things interesting. A Centaur Zombie is quite a fun CR 3… so is an Ogre Zombie, and the Minotaur Zombie at CR 4 can be outright brutal. Try an Advanced Vampire Worg with Dire Wolf Vampire Spawn. There are some creatures that aren’t undead that go well with them: Vargouilles, Gargoyles, Barghests, Hags, Harpies, Hell Hounds, Shadow Mastiffs, Will-o-whisps, and Worgs. You can break the template mold to try a fiendish ghoul, or a Half-fiend Wight. What about a Vampire Assassin Vine? If you don’t have access to Libris Mortis or any other undead supplements to deal with classed undead, you can simply give a ghoul class levels. Sure advancement isn’t by class, but the CR system doesn’t break (any more than it already is) if you go that route.
lifespeed 05-25-06, 03:52 PM	Like I said before, if the master shows up to help the party, but they still do the bulk of the fighting (he could be old or weakened by the pupil stealing some cool item, or the pupil could be empowered some way), then I think it'll be cool. Another option for making undead cooler would be the Spellstiched template from MM2. I've used it once to good effect and plan to do so again at some point. It's a great way to throw a curve ball at the PCs, especially if they're fighting through normal ghouls and all of a sudden one whips a lightning bolt at them.
Kragar's Shadow 05-25-06, 03:54 PM	I guess what I'm trying to give them is the feeling of danger and the sense that they're doing something important. If I frame it that they need to deliver this Orb to end the problems that may take care of the idea. Really I don't want this item overshadowing them until the final battle where it becomes a surprise that it's actually the Master's current form. Up until then it will mostly grant someone the ability to turn undead.
Eldharis 05-25-06, 04:27 PM	I had a cool idea for the BBEG battle that your are planning. The master when he reveals himself his weakness could be because of like you stated the lose of his spell book and other items. If he is not a lich and just a necromancer he could be very old and have like only 20 or 30 hp. Since he is decent wizard he might have taken spell mastery which would allow him to cast spells without his spell book. So give the wizard a few important spells. So now the basis of this battle becomes protection. The wizard in the party might focus his actions on counter spells to let the necromancer get his better spells off. Fighters would not charge in but make a sheild for the wizard.
Kragar's Shadow 05-26-06, 09:20 AM	Thank you, Eldharris. That is the sort of idea I'm looking for: ways to frame the battle to make it something different and yet still interesting.