Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aramil_silverwind 07-30-04, 09:03 PM	An idea that I've been tweaking with for a while is the concept of a nation in my campaign world that worshpied the (north american) zodiac as gods. I don't know much about astrology myself, so I come to the forums, where there's a +40 to all knowledge checks thanks to many, many people aiding me.... How would one do this, and more improtantly, what would the domains be for each symbol?
Lxarth 07-30-04, 09:57 PM	I am only posting because the tread is blank...i have no idea about the Zodiac gods. Tell us what you know first, then maybe we can figure something out.
krichaiushii 07-30-04, 11:16 PM	By North American Zodiac, are you referring to the way we Americans have twisted Greek and Roman mythology, or are you asking about Native American beliefs? This (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/americas/) might help for the latter. As could this (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/) for the former. Godchecker (http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/native_american-mythology.php) has a fairly comprehensive list of Native American (among other pantheons) deities, as well. Lastly, you might acquire the old Dieties and Demigods book, and loot that for ideas - with or without Chthulu and Elric. Though with will cost you much more.
SOKAR 07-31-04, 11:16 PM	By Zodiac, do you mean the star signs? (Cancer, Gemini, etc)
Aramil_silverwind 08-01-04, 03:59 AM	by 'Zodiac' I do mean the star signs (Sagitarius, Cancer, Aries , Capricorn, Pisces, Taurus, Leo, Virgo, Aquarius, Gemini, Libra, and Scorpio) I really know next to nothing, which is why I decded to ask everyone here about it. Considering the highly obscure knowledge I've seen here more than a couple of times, I'm fairly sure that you guys can help me out with this informational request. I know that each sign has an element (or maybe 2?) tied to it, which could help round of the domains. The typical personality archtypes that each sign is known for could account for the alighnment... but as I said before, I really know nothin, wich is why I'm here asking all of you.
krichaiushii 08-01-04, 06:59 AM	The Zodiac is tied to alchemy (http://www.alchemylab.com/websites.htm), or at least was. But this site (http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/index.htm) should help, too. Probably moreso than the former. Best of all, is this site. (http://www.hexagongirl.com/y/22-Alchemy&Symbols.html) You probably want to go here first.
Art_Tillary 08-01-04, 08:28 PM	Well, first off, there were not gods of the zodiac. Nor was there a pantheon made up of the signs. They are western european, not north american. I think you could say the zodiac is ancient greek or ancient roman, but I'm not positive on that. The zodiac consists of 12 constellations, that rotate thru the sky over the year. They have been tied to astrology and apparently alchemy. Most are, off the top of my head, mythological figures, but not gods. If you want to create a pantheon out of them, you are basically gong to be starting from scratch. Domain wise, they are traditionally divided into the 4 elements of classical thought: earth, air, fire and water. AT
Mitchell 08-02-04, 04:48 AM	This is rough. I know capricorn is an earth sign, but only because I knew a girl who was into it and tried to guess my sign. Each element is associated with three signs, but I can only guess what is what. Do your homework... Maybe follow the links. Figure out how many domains you want, and which ones, then try to reverse engineer them into the signs. You may think that the war domain fits for sagittarius, because that is the archer. But it may also fit for leo. If you are going to have all domains unique, then you will need at least 24, more reasonably 36, and 48 to keep with the customary 4 domains per. You could give the different alignment domains to all the signs that share an element... Law for earth, as an example. You could also split alignment domains up between the elements shared by signs... Earth, in this case may get law, good, and evil, and maybe fire gets good, evil, and chaos, wind gets chaos, law, and good, and water would get law, chaos, and evil. Of course, you still have to figure out what goes where. One other thing... You know your players. There is a distinct possibility that all of your players will choose their individual signs as their patrons. Don't mess them up. If they are all usually good, then don't make any of these signs evil. If player "A" usually plays fighters, then maybe making their sign have the war domain isn't all bad. That may be the best advice I can give. Tailor the signs to your players, and then work out what is left over.
Revelation 08-02-04, 06:26 AM	And lets not firget that there are actually 13 constellation that cross the plane of the zodiac, I write as an amateur astronomer NOT an astrologer, the 13th is Opiuchus the serpent wrestler. Opiuchus, the Serpent Wrestler, is identified with the Greek God of Healing, Asclepius. Opiuchus discovered the secret of re-birth from the Serpent, who was the Classical symbol of re-birth, due to its regular shudding of its skin. The Serpent, in the Heavens, is separated into two smaller parts: Serpens Caput (the Head of the Serpent), and Serpens Cauda (the Tail of the Serpent), bpth parts are clutched in the hands of Opiuchus. Whilst not evil, a lesser known 13th sign could be the typical plot device for the BBEG or the source of the redeeming power that will save the world. Opiuchius lies between Scorpio and sagitarius, though I don't have my books at work, perhaps a PC is born on this sign and doesn't yet know his destiny
Daybreaker 08-02-04, 06:11 PM	You might actually be better off starting up your own zodiac. I think it's an awesome idea, though! Seriously. I don't think I've ever heard this one before, and that's saying something.
Sweet Steph 08-02-04, 06:23 PM	Originally posted by Daybreaker You might actually be better off starting up your own zodiac. Agreed. If this campaign isn't set on Earth, why would the same constellations be visible? As long as this is a different world altogther, I'd suggest having an entirely different night sky as well.
Klajorne 08-02-04, 08:00 PM	I like the concept well enough. The concept of what sign you are corresponds with in what constellation the sun was placed the moment you were born (which could be below the horizon if you were born during night-time hours). You could bring about an interesting cosmology if you "enforced" that certain priests follow their gods by when they were born. Sort of how Werewolf works with the phases of the moon. The characters of the zodiac weren't really meant to be deities, but you could use the personalities that are associated with each sign and attribute them to those deities (temperamental and active for Aries, self-centered and proud for Leo, yappy and fickle for Gemini, and so forth). You could definitely milk Western Astrology for lots of ideas: each sign is connected with a planet (twice for Mercury and Venus), so you could plausibly claim the planets are the physical manifestations of the gods themselves. Where those planets were rising when the character was born might be how the character relates to other theologies. I think your biggest problem would be that you would have to pigeon-hole the current domains into your pantheon. For example, Taurus tends to be a very down-to-earth sign, all about taking its time to accomplish a task and into very little risk-taking, but I would be hard-pressed to find two domains that accurately portrayed that. Each sign is linked to one of the four elements (air, earth, fire, water), but any two signs (like Gemini and Virgos, both air signs), are often drastically different. The elements don't take into account the masculinity/femininity or mutable/fixed/cardinal (little hazy on this last bit) of each signs. I still think it's a great idea, because it's something your players will instantly recognize. They might not know what a Scorpio priestess will act like, but chances are that as part of their real-world knowledge they heard somewhere that they aren't supposed to make Scorpios angry. It also acts as a convenient spring-board to making NPC personalities of priests. If you don't mind, I might steal this idea one day to use in my own campaign setting.
Edymnion 08-02-04, 11:02 PM	The 12 signs of the Zodiac: Ares, the Ram. Taurus, the Bull. Gemini, the Twins. Cancer, the Crab. Leo, the Lion. Virgo, the Virgin. Libra, the Scales (balancing scales) Scorpio, the Scorpion. Sagattarious, the Archer (sometimes pictured as a centaur). Capricorn, the Goat. Aquaris, the Water Bearer. and Pisces, the Fish. http://www.skynet.ie/~ger/zodiac/ That should tell ya what you need to know.
Cymraegmorgan 08-03-04, 01:34 AM	Okay, here is my take on this from a professional standpoint. First of all the ecliptic plane has 22 major constellations across it. Every major cultural grouping in the world has an astrology. Ours is based on Phoenician star charts. The twelve signs of the zodiac represent the "big" constellations in the ecliptic. Imagine the ecliptic as the inside of a wheel the you are the center of. From our perspective the wheel turns. Your sun sign is( in its simplist terms) the sign overhead when you were born. Tropical versus sidereal versus vedic, etc. Ignore all of this, it is not important to the game environment. Aries. Fire sign. Fire domain, War domain. Taurus. Earth sign. Earth domain, Plant domain. Gemini. Air sign. Air domain, chaos domain. Cancer. Water sign. Water domain. Protection domain. Leo. Fire sign. Fire domain. Sun domain. Virgo. Earth sign. Earth domain, Knowledge domain. Libra. Air sign. Air domain, Law domain. Scorpio. Water sign. Water domain, magic domain. Sagittarius. Fire sign. Fire domain, Luck domain. Capricorn. Earth sign. Earth domain, Animal domain. Aquarius. Air sign. Air domain, Healing domain. Pisces. Water sign. Water domain, Death domain, Destruction domain.
Cymraegmorgan 08-03-04, 02:27 AM	Here is a SIMPLE overview of personality archtypes associated with the signs. ARIES. best trait: courage. keyphrase: "I am." TAURUS. best trait: dependability. keyphrase: "I have." GEMINI. best trait: responsiveness. keyphrase: "I think." CANCER. best trait: loyalty. keyphrase: "I feel." LEO. best trait: exuberance. keyphrase: "I will." VIRGO. best trait:conscientiousness. keyphrase: "I analyze." LIBRA. best trait: charm. keyphrase: "I balance." SCORPIO. best trait: idealism. keyphrase: "I desire." SAGITTARIUS. best trait: optimism. keyphrase: "I see." CAPRICORN. best trait: steadiness. keyphrase: "I use." AQUARIUS. best trait; friendliness. keyphrase: "I know." PISCES. best trait: intuitive. keyphrase: "I believe."
Green 08-03-04, 05:52 AM	I've been interested in astrology for a long time now, and not just Western astrology. However, if you want to find a resource that explains everything fairly clearly without the newspaper column watering down of it, try Liz Greene's Astrology for Lovers. It's not a book about who gets along with who, but more like a portrait of each element and each sign as individuals and as people in relationships. It's worth a read. In any case, one of the things that will definitely help you assign domains to the signs are the following ideas: polarity, triplicity (also called quality), and quadruplicity (aka element). Polarity essentially describes the type of way the signs deal with the world. There are two polarities: masculine and feminine. It has nothing to do with gender, except that society tends to view one or the other of these traits as being "proper" or men or for women. Masculine signs are often described as active and focused on the mental and spiritual world. Feminine signs are thought to be more receptive and focused on the emotional or material world. Fire and air signs are masculine. Earth and water signs are feminine. Triplicity, or quality, describes a sign's approach to its life and goals. Cardinal signs are driven and motivated, and thus they are often initiators. Fixed signs are determined, self-reliant, and persistent. Mutable signs are flexible and versatile. The elements you have been hearing about (aka quadruplicity) are a bit more complicated, but keeping the imagery of the elements in mind can help a bit. Let's take fire signs. If you describe someone as having a fiery temperament, what sorts of traits does that bring to mind? Energetic and bold are my first guesses, which extend to zeal, passion, aggression, chutzpah, etc. Likewise with earth: stable, practical, earthy. This also translate to reliability, tradition, sensuality, and materialism. For air, the word "detached" seems relevant. It can also mean objective, rational, analytical, and emotionally cold. Water is deep, fluid, nurturing, mysterious. In human beings, this can mean empathetic, nuturing, moody, and smothering. The signs are (in order and given their polarity, quality, and element): Aries the Ram (masculine cardinal fire), Taurus the Bull (feminine fixed earth), Gemini the Twins (masculine mutable air), Cancer the Crab (feminine cardinal water), Leo the Lion (masculine fixed fire), Virgo the Virgin (feminine mutable earth), Libra the Scales (masculine cardinal air), Scorpio the Scorpion (feminine fixed water), Sagittarius the Archer (masculine mutable fire), Capricorn the Goat (feminine cardinal earth), Aquarius the Water-Bearer (masculine fixed air), and Pisces the Fish (feminine mutable water). So, I hope this helps you get an idea of what you can be dealing with. As far as domains, you already get the idea that you will assign them based on the elements, which is easy enough. What's harder is figuring out what other domains apply. Good and evil are right out, as all signs have their good and bad traits, and they can be better or worse depending on the situation and the people involved. Here are some suggestions to get you started: All signs should get the domain associated with their element, right from the start. From there, you have to do a little detective work. Here is what I came up with, based upon what's available in the PHB. I don't include everything I thought, but what follows are things that I believe should definitely be on each sign's domain list: Aries. Fire, War. Mars (Roman god of war) is the ruling planet of Aries. Taurus. Earth, Strength. Bull's strength is a bit hard to ignore. Gemini. Air, Chaos, Travel, Trickery. Mercury is the ruling planet of Gemini, and he was the god of roads, travelers, and thieves. It's harder for things to stay neat and tidy (iow, lawful) with two people running the show. Cancer. Water, Protection. Cancer is tied to the Mother archetype, and in addition to being nurturing, Mother is also protective. It's a shame there is no Moon domain, because if there were, Cancer would definitely have it because the moon is its ruling planet. To substitute, maybe the Magic domain could work, given the moon's association with the arcane. Leo. Fire, Strength, Sun. The sun is Leo's ruling planet. Law and Strength due to Leo's link to the archetypal monarch. Virgo. Earth, Healing, Plant. Virgo is intimately linked with the myth of Demeter, who sustains and restores the land with her presence, and blights it with her absence. Libra. Air, Knowledge, Law. The scales of Libra are often seen as analagous to the scales of justice. Scorpio. Water, Death. Pluto is Scorpio's ruling planet, which is rooted in the classical god of the underworld. Sagittarius. Fire, Animal, Luck, Travel. Sagittarius is the sign most linked to long-distance travel. Jupiter, the ruling planet of Sagittarius, also rules luck (for good or ill). The symbol of Sagittarius is the centaur, and many astrology books point toward a mutual liking between Sagittarians and animals. Capricorn. Earth, Law, Protection. Capricorn is linked to the Father (or Patriarch) archetype, and Father, like Mother, is protective of his home and family. Capricorn is also the sign associated with tradition and society. Aquarius. Air. Knowledge. Aquarius is often seen as the sign of the truth-seeker and is often linked to the myth of Prometheus. Pisces. Water, Magic, Trickery. Neptune is Pisces' ruling planet, and it has been linked to the concept of dreams, illusions, and deception.
Aramil_silverwind 08-03-04, 05:33 PM	Thank you everyone, especially Green for helping me with this. I'm genuinely surprised by the fact that noone has ever tried a similar thing, as I got this concept from a cousin of mine that played D&D when he was younger. Klajorne, go for it. use it if you want, its not like I invented these signs, anyone can use this concept. Thanks again everyone, and lets try to get these domains down-pat!
Aramil_silverwind 08-03-04, 06:24 PM	With the help of everyone, I've put this general set of Zodiac Dieties together. Thanks to everyone that helped out with this project. This is the first comprehensive crunch-set of rules for the zodiac pantheon and wil most definately be revised as this thread continues and new information is brought into light. Aries - 3/21 - 4/20 Fire, War, Chaos, [Courage] Taurus - 4/21 - 5/21 Earth, Strength, Plant Gemini - 4/21 - 5/21 Air, Chaos, Travel, Trickery. Cancer - 6/22 - 7/22 Water, Protection, Chaos Leo - 7/23 - 8/21 Fire, Strength, Sun, [Courage] Virgo - 8/22 - 9/23 Earth, Healing, Plant, Knowledge Libra - 9/24 - 10/23 Air, Knowledge, Law, [Noblility] Scorpio - 10/24 - 11/22 Water, Death, Magic, Law Opiuchus - 11/22 - 11/23 This sign crosses over with Scorpio and Sagitarius, so there are really no clerics of Opiuchus, really. But any cleric of Scorpio or Sagitarius that was born on either of the 2 days may add Healing to the domain list that they CHOOSE FROM. This may result in the cleric not taking healing, and therefor not tapping into the unique power that they where borne with. Any cleric that chooses to take the healing domain however, must pay homeage to Opiuchus as well as thier primary god, though the waering of the holy symbol is not a manditory act. Sagittarius - 11/23 -12/22 Fire, Animal, Luck, Travel. Capricorn - 12/23 - 1/20 Earth, Law, Protection, [Planning] Aquarius - 1/21 - 2/19 Air. Knowledge, Healing, Law Pisces - 2/20 - 3/20 Water, Magic, Trickery. NOTE: all domains marked in [brackets] are from Complete Warrior. All domains marked in *stars* are taken from dragon magazine, with the issue # following.
D+1 08-03-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Aramil_silverwind Gemini - 4/21 - 5/21 Air, Chaos, Travel, Trickery. Should be 5/21 - 6/21. A cut/paste error methinks. BTW, I like this idea and I'm archiving it on me hard drive on the off chance that I might use it someday.
The Philosopher King 08-04-04, 12:36 AM	hmm... interesting project. I found this site (http://www.thezodiac.com/) ages ago. It seemed pretty decent then, so you may want to check it out. It also goes a bit into the alchemical and Jungian aspects of the signs. The latter may be useful for creating avatars (via archetypes) and so on. Anyhoo, good luck with it! Oh in case you weren't aware (and since it doesn't look like anyone's mentioned it) the names of the signs are from the Latin for the twelve common symbols.
PenderGrass 08-04-04, 03:37 PM	As a Cancer, I would note that you don't want to forget the importance of the Moon to this sign. Cancers are often referred to as being 'Moon Children.'
Aramil_silverwind 08-04-04, 10:25 PM	I would have loved to have done something moon-esque with Cancer, but unless its in a book I do not yet own, there is no moon domain as of yet...but who knows, domains are like feats...there's usually a couple new ones in every book.
PenderGrass 08-05-04, 03:06 AM	Try the following stuff for Moon-esque Gods: From Deities & Demigods HATHOR, God of love, music, dance, MOON, fate and motherhood. Feats Granted are Community, Good and Luck HECATE, Goddess of MOON, magic, abundance and undead. Feats Granted are Creation, Evil, Knowledge and Magic. Suggested Moon Child (Cancer) Domains Considering the above, as well as what has been given already, I would give Cancer the Following Domains: 1. Water - because it is a Water Sign 2. Madness - because lunacy is a descendent word of Lunar 3. Community - because Cancers are associated with giving/caring/protecting to those that they care for 4. Protection - same reason as Community 5. Dream - obvious reasons 6. Mysticism - because moon is linked to arcane, but this more fitting than Magic Domain 7. Good - due to their communal nature Now, if you wanted to add a more astronomical flavor to Cancer, I would also add - Knowledge and Oracle. But, I wouldn't go that far. I would also ask for people that ARE the signs to step forward with what they know of their own signs. You will get a better idea from those that live it, rather than relying on those that just read it out of a book.
darkwarlock1114 08-05-04, 06:06 PM	AOL has a very comprehensive guide to the Zodiac.
Bedford 12-31-04, 11:49 PM	It might be sweet to have PrCs based on each sign. I'm going to work on it. Thanks for the inspiration.
Saurenda 01-01-05, 12:14 AM	The Draconomicon and Complete Divine have a "Glory" domain that would fit with Leo's monarch sterotype as well. I really like the elements on this thread and what's been dicussed. It was something everyday that got a little more special because of an idea to use it in a new way. That being said I hope your PrCs are nothing like pretty boys in different colored armor jumping on each other spouting cliches, and travel with a young girl, a boy, and a white tiger.
Bedford 01-01-05, 02:02 AM	Being a Pisces with Aquarius Rising, I know that Pisces tend to be hopeless romantics and Aquarians tend to br artistic. That needs to be reflected as well.
Kainy 01-01-05, 03:55 AM	IIRC, FRCS and hopefully PGtF have a Moon domain, what with Selune being one of the major deities in Faerun. That was a lot of abbreviations. In order: If I Recall Correctly, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Players' Guide to Faerun.
Dartanel 01-01-05, 05:11 AM	If I remember correctly, there is a Moon domain in FR, but it's too heavily focused on lycanthropes to be really interesting.
Santrilla 01-01-05, 07:10 AM	I was playing with a concept like this recently. First I modified the western zodiac to fit D&D more accurately- I forget what I decided on, but I think I had Dryad for Virgo, water elemental for aquarius, griffon for leo, minotaur for taurus and so on. Then, I set up a system whereby characters recieved a bonus depending on which sign they were born under (randomly determined, I assume). For example being born under the Minotaur gave you +1 to strength, water elemental gave you +4 to swim checks, and so on. I understand how horribly overpowered this could get, but I thought maybe I'd implement it with a feat- Zodiac Affinity or something. Sorry to hijack :blush: but any thoughts on this?
Saurenda 01-01-05, 11:09 AM	Giving Leo's Pounce whould fit, but it is very overpowered to give full attacks on charges for PCs, espically pc fighters and rangers. A slight bonus, no ability bonuses, would be nice. All Virgo's gain +1 bonus on diplomacy/Charisma checks, Leo Intimidate/strength checks, Pisces craft/int checks...etc Make thier time of the year a special time for them. Increase bonuses to +2 for checks makes certain times of the year appropriate for doing crafting, fighting, and rebuilding. Have them each also gain a birthstone, such that when they are of appropriate adult age an item made with thier birthstone, or having thier birthstone set into it unlocks a 1/week or day ability for them. Hope that helps.
Bedford 01-01-05, 02:17 PM	How about allowing them to use their birthstone as a focus instead of having to use material components or a religious symbol?
PearlJamaholic 01-02-05, 12:30 PM	back when i was playing FF tactics i kinda got an itch for the zodiac thing. in ff tactics there wasa 13th zodiac sign i thought it was just nonsense stuff. but it was called serpentarius. so it seems the people at squaresoft kinda did their homework. anyways dont forget moon signs. everyone has a moon sign. you could have the negative energy or evil forces use their moon sign. so each zodiac has two sets of domians one being the good that belong to people who worship the sun sign and another set that worships it as a moon sign. an example of what i mean is like how a cleric that worships virgo as a sun sign that can cast heal. if one would worship virgo as a moon sign and and it cast inflict. still havent found a moon sign chart thing but ill post back when i find one. did find this though for sun signs. FIRE Aries Leo Sagittarius AIR Aquarius Gemini Libra WATER Cancer Scorpio Pisces EARTH Taurus Virgo Capricorn
MinusInnocence 01-02-05, 02:23 PM	As a Cancer, I would note that you don't want to forget the importance of the Moon to this sign. Cancers are often referred to as being 'Moon Children.' Also, for those interested in cult activity, it wouldn't be unreasonable to call Pender a Moonie.